So, with guns such as the Ironclaw shotgun, which have the scatter quality, and also the ability to semi of full auto burst, how do you reconcile the potential to score extra hits with the scatter quality and the potential to score extra hits with the burst.

For instance, let's say I fired my Ironclaw on semi-auto at Heretic X at point blank range. I score two degrees of success. Now, I get an extra hit for two degrees of success twice. Do I hit him twice, and both shells do two hits, for a total of four rolls, or only three?

You need look no further than page 10 of the errata:

The Actions section starting on page 190 should include a
special note concerning combining semi-auto and full-auto fi re
with the Scatter quality, which reads “When fi ring a semi- or fullauto
burst at point blank range with a weapon that has the Scatter
quality, the extra hits for rate of fi re and scatter are worked out
separately and both applied. For example, Horatius Kane fi res
his combat shotgun at Heretic X. Kane is at point-blank range
and fi res a semi-automatic burst. Kane rolls 01 with his modifi ed
Ballistic Skill of 70 (30 BS, +30 for point-blank range, +10 for
fi ring semi-auto) and hits by an amazing six degrees of success. He
gets one hit at 70, one hit for semi-automatic at 50, and a third hit
for semi-auto at 30 (he does not get a fourth hit at 10, because the
combat shotgun’s rate of fi re is 3). He would get additional hits for
scatter at 50, 30 and 10, for a total of 6 hits on Heretic X, most
likely shredding the cultist to bits in the Emperor’s name.”

To put it simply: extra hits for scatter and extra hits for burst are counted separately, but are also cumulative.

So in your example, you would hit three times: one for a successful hit, one for 2 DoS due to semi-auto fire, and one for 2 DoS due to scatter.

So which of these would the Combat shotgun work as

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=99&efcid=3&efidt=461226&efpag=1#500399

DarkArbitor said:

Did you read the errata? It's fairly straight forward. Let's say you're firing the Combat Shotgun at point-blank range on semi-auto. Semi-auto gives you one hit per two degrees of success and so does scatter. Therefore, a straight success will land one hit and you will get two additional hits per every additional two degrees of success.

So:

Straight success: 1 hit

1 degree of success: Still 1 hit

2 degrees of success: 3 hits

3 degrees of success: Still 3 hits

4 degrees of success: 5 hits.

And so forth.

but that doesnt seem to do any more damage than any other semi auto weapon

Er, sorry wasnt counting but shouldn't the 4th degree have 6 hits 1 from the 3rd shelll, 2 from the second, and 3 from the fist

DarkArbitor said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. You get one hit for a straight success, and both semi-auto and scatter give an additional hit for every two degrees of success. Therefore, the number of hits are: 1(straight success) + 4(degrees of success)/2(degrees of success per extra hit for Semi Auto) + 4(degrees of success)/2(degrees of success per extra hit for Scatter) = 1 + 2 + 2 = 5.

dont the 2nd and third shells you get from the 2nd and 4th susscess also get scatter or did they only include pellets in the first shell.

Its very simple:

“When firing a semi- or fullauto burst at point blank range with a weapon that has the Scatter quality, the extra hits for rate of fire and scatter are worked out
separately and both applied."

so scatter really doesnt apply to the 2nd and 3rd extra bullet u are getting from semi auto thats kinda bogus!?

Think of it not so much "by shell," but rather as an aspect of the weapon.

Also, the key thing is speed of the game. Also, a full auto like the vanaheim pattern would start to break the game. Of course even a lightly armoured foe pretty much shrugs off a shotgun because of the crap pen they all have.

@DarkArbitor: I think I see what your getting at, with the example posted in the errata with a combat shotgun and getting 3 hits on Semi-automatic at point blank range with a roll of a "01" with a BS 70 with the bonuses stated making it 6 degrees of success, So your thinking that the first shell hits at 70 and would scatter additional time at 50, 30, and 10 which is 4 hits, then the second shell hits on a 50 and would scatter additional time at 30 and 10 which is another 3 hits, and finally the third shell hits on a 30 and would scatter additional time at 10 which is another 2 hits. Making it a total of 9 hits, is that what your thinking?

Now Granted the weapon in question is Ironclaw shotgun with a semi-automatic rate of fire of 2 shells and using the same information with a total BS of 70 with the bonuses stated and 6 DoS that would be two hits from the ammo at 70 and then at 50 then add the scatter at 50, 30, and 10 you get 5 hits, just like how numb3rc stated in his examples.

numb3rc said:

I don't think each shell gets it's own scatter hits, so you can't say shell A scatters so many times, and then shell B scatters so many times. I think it was suppose to be simple when doing this and not slowing down the game with something as complicated as counting how many hits there are and how many hits come from each ammo hit scattering on top of it.

but without the scatter on each bullet it doesnt seem to do very much more dmg than a pump action with an aim action + red dot

DarkArbitor said:

You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think this. Once again, look at the vanaheim patter, its got full auto RoF of like, 6.

With no scatter, with BS of 40 + 20 FA + 30 PB, on a 01, it gets 6 hits.
The same thing with scatter, (using RAW), gets 6 (full auto) and 5 from scatter (90, 70, 50, 30, 10), so 11 hits total. Thats slightly double what the weapon can normally put out.

If it was counted by shell (not as per the rules), it would be something crazy like:

1: 90, 70, 50, 30, 10 = 6 hits

2: 80, 60, 40, 20 = 5 hits

3: 70, 50, 30, 10 = 5 hits

4: 60, 40, 20 = 4 hits

5: 50, 30, 20 = 4 hits

6: 40, 20 = 3 hits

For some absolutely crazy 27 hits. That simply is not how the game works, a cheaper than 1000 throne weapon does not pull off abilities like that (and really, no weapon pulls off an amount of hits like that). Whats more, the rules don't state how to calculate the scatter for separate shots, as once again, this is not how the rules work.

I don't see how you can say it doesn't have greater benefit over a pump action. RoF and Scatter are basically two different, non-interacting abilities that increase the amount of hits generated. Either one is good, having both is plain better. Your suggestion is to use BS increasing actions/gear, which would effectively give one extra hit to the scatter. But what is not being considered is how it would work in an encounter. Scatter only works at PB. What enemy is going to let a guy with a shotgun stand within 3m and shoot at them? Pretty much, none. So there are probably no turns in which you get to "aim and standard attack" with your pump action. You're too busy getting your face chopped off, Ideally, to use scatter, you would move into PB, and get a single shot off. Combat shotguns on the other hand, have RoF to be useful at greater ranges, but also have scatter if the enemy gets too close.