Yes I know as of June 21st and so he is still the speaker for another two and a half weeks

MKX said:

As far as I can see, all that popular entertainment does today is dumb stuff down for mass appeal.

I seem to remember somewhere someone from Wizards say that D&D V4 was designed to be more like a MMORPG. I'm sure they did that because they were losing players to WOW.

Kids, stay away from MMORPGs, they'll rot your brain and prevent you from procreating.

I really cant see what all the fuss is about. What is it thats so appealing about WoW? I tried it once, it took me 15 minutes to grow bored of it. 15 friggin' minutes, no more.

WoW isnt even an mmoRPG really. Several MMO's these days have totally missed out on the "ROLE PLAYING"-part of the word "Role Playing Game". Sure, I am aware of the rather obscure existence of role playing servers in WoW, but those are hardly in the majority. Most players just run around hacking up monsters, raiding and try to get more loot. Nothing wrong with that of course, whatever floats your boat etc.

But this whole "why play RPG:s when I can just play WoW"-mentality I really cant understand. WoW could NEVER give me the same kind of experience that roleplaying sessions can. WoW has its limits, a traditional RPG has no limits other than the human imagination. Blizzard could never release a sufficient amount of mods or expansions to their game to top my and my friends' imagination.

I wonder what sort of role player who actually confuses MMO-games with traditional role playing games. If their campaigns with the traditional games really consist of the same stuff that MMO-gaming is, then I feel terribly sorry for them. Because the miss out on some really fantastic **** that can be done with traditional role playing where all the action takes place within the players imagination. Something you could never do in an MMO (at least not yet. When you can hook up your brain to your computer it might be a different story, but today it is impossible).

Maybe I overestimate my fellow role players around the world. Perhaps all they want is to run around looking like a badly animated Orc or Elf while bashing monsters over the head and collect gold and other loot...

Joe_momma said:

Which is one of the reasons why I despise WotC's DnD. (that and the fact that im dead sick of fantasy setting in general).

Here's one for you: If i want to play an MMORPG, then I'll just sit down in front of my computer. But I want to play a Role Playing Game, not an MMORPG. This is something WotC just doesn't get.

Sure, if kids want to limit their imagination and rot their brain away in front of WoW, then by all means do so. But I dont want this MMORPG starting to corrupt traditional Role Playing Games as well, with its infantile and limited "hack n' slash"-mentality...

Peacekeeper_b said:

That doesn't really apply everywhere around the world you know. Even though it might be more common in the US. Where I live it has become more of a uber-nerdness thing to sit and play WoW all the time, while traditional Role Playing is either unheard of or considered a somewhat strange but diverse hobby. And here RPGs are not a new thing, they arrived here in Sweden only a few years after the first version of Dungeons and Dragons and has existed here ever since.

But stigma shouldn't dictate what hobbies you indulge in really. Sure, insecure kids in their teens might have a hard time but when you've grown I personally feel that a person should rise above such petty issues like caring about social stigmas. Only insecure conformists actually care about such things, a major part of growing up is to become more secure in yourself and not bother so much about what others think of you and what hobbies you have.

So there is no excusing resorting to WoW as a replacment for traditional RPG's, merely because its more "socially acceptable". That applies everywhere, no matter where you live on this blue planet of ours...

I have lost players to WoW. However, it's never been a case of "I'd rather play WarCraft." It's been a case of "I started playing, and the next thing I knew it was two hours past 12 (the time we usually schedule our games)" In those cases, it's more about time management, responsibility, and etiquette.

Not quite, as of June 21st he steps down, opening the way for a new Speaker, but until one is decided upon he retains the role (but not the duties, which are covered by his deputies and the Clerks of Parliament) for however long that takes. I know it's nitpicking, but we'll call it a point of proceedure...

Hmmm that's a thought for a RPG, A Game of Parliaments, where the PC's have to navigate the cut and thrust of politics...

we would be the coolest folks at the Retirement home, ever

think of it. when our grand-children comes to visit they find all kind of kool stuff from the PnP rpg. like posters, miniatures, and maybe an ongoing W40K battle on a huge board. And we would tell them of the big battles we fought in. mixing in things from both real world conflicts to W40K. he he. history telling would take on whole new dimensions when old `pa start his old head engine. it may sputter make funny noises, but It will weave wonderful stories.

and than we would make them paint miniatures, with their little skillful hands. and all the time reminisicing about good old days, when dices where dices, not some software program randomizer on their I-pod-holograms. you would show them fantastic games like Fallout, and they would go "aagh its not in ultra HD 3D effects with 4D simulations".

and our treasured rpg books, would be like something you would expect to find at dig-site, or at the old library museums. and the kids would go: how do you activate this book?. why flipping ofcourse. uh that is so tiresome, does it read? no, you`ll say. but I can read it for you.

and than you start to read for them. and they slowely understand, that you don`t need all those fancy gadgets, and software programs and holograms, to have fun. you simply need some friends, and some imagination. and it would be the best fun in the world.

You see it`s all about re-discovering things.

I am not really worried.

storytelling will never go away, or be made redudant. (some ramblings from a T. Pratchett fan).

Mal Reynolds said:

Having been playing games since the twilight of DOS yet young enough to still be a part of the Halo generation, I can safely say I already experienced that derision to old games... from someone old enough to be my brother.

The rest... Well, if we survive the apocalypse then our skills as game masters can become valuable as people look around for some way to entertain themselves once the day's work is done...

I just want to have a lawn when I'm old. So I can yell at the kids to get off it.

Alot of the problems with a pen and paper PG are solved by WOW so it is not surprising that people want to play on the computer instead.

WOW doesn't require you to do anything to play. Try organising a group of 5-8 people to be in one place at a time to suit them all (expecially once you have finished university and have to get a real job or have kids). There is no need for a GM and no paperwork and books to lug about and sort after each session. No dice are needed so you don't have to go hunting under the sofa if you drop one during a game.

Thats why Computer games have taken over from boardgames and RPGs. No preperation, no organisation and you don't even need any friends!

That's why I don't play MMORPGs. I like all those things, even the things that slot table-top games down.

Soon you'll be able to hop into a 25 man raid pretty much at a moment's notice, without any prep, and simply roll your face across your keyboard before collecting your 'phat lewts'. (This incidentally is why I no longer have a WoW account.)

LOL that made my day.

My group, a bunch of early 30s, is full of people that played mmorpgs. 3 have since cancelled their account and one I wish would go back to playing again as he has no imagination or ability.

Despite what the name says, computer RPGs are just games. There is little to no roleplaying what-so-ever. What if this time I wanted to play Link as a wizard, or a thief, or an inquisitor. Nope out of luck. I have to play link the way they tell me to play link. That is just playing a game. Just once If someone was able to make a game where you could solve every quest and get the same out of the game without haveing to kill anything then, maybe possibly it would be actual roleplaying. But no, we will continue to pull gold coins from the butts of slain rats and wolves and collect 10,000 boar teeth and play computer games that try to make us think we are playing a role.

Its not my scene and I do find that a number of former rpgers spend a very considerable time on line enjoying raiding and such.

I tried Warcraft and got bored very quickly - strangely I found off line games such as GTA / Mercenaries actually more imerssive both due to the fact your actions mattered and influecned the world around you and the fact that they give the illusion of a world actually living around you - especially GTA.

People were going about their lives (however limited) and interacting with each other - rather than standing around waiting for the 10,000 person to ask them about the quest. Also why can't people speak in warcraft and similar (npcs I mean) - its beautifully realised imageray but the people are silent.

Southpark summed up very nicely the things I dislike about Warcraft

still its a very valid form of entertainment if you enjoy it. And I can see how you could build up an addiciton if you liked it.

best thing about warcraft for me is the Mr T adds

First of all, I'd just like to state that I don't play MMOs. Not my thing. I've plenty of friends who play/have played WoW, one of whom now works on Warhammer Online. I haven't lost any of them to the MMO beast, they've all stuck with TTRPGs, eventually getting bored with WoW (or just decided it was hurting their wallets too much).

As to why some gamers have moved from TT to MMOs.... here's my opinion:

It isn't because it is more socially acceptable. It isn't cause the youth of today are lazy or unimaginative. It isn't because MMOs appeal to the lowest common denominator.

It's cause they do what they do better than RPGs can. For some people (the majority?) MMOs are just far more entertaining than RPGs. RPGs are not superior to MMOs. They each do different things that appeal to different people. Some like both and will play both. Some gamers gave up on RPGs, because they quite simply didn't enjoy them as much as WoW. Again - and I want to emphasise this - it is not because MMOs are easier or less brain-taxing than RPGs. It's because RPGs are a niche interest that appeal to a tiny minority of the population. Just because we enjoy gathering around a table, telling stories, rolling dice and roleplaying, does not mean that people who enjoy other hobbies are in any way inferior. Trust me, someone on a MMO forum right now is wondering what is wrong with those guys who play TT games, another forum is discussing why their fellow gamers cannot see the merits of gathering in a field and hitting each other with rubber swords and there's a knitting forum somewhere debating the inferiority of all non-knitters.

If RPG developers want to continue to exist, they need to concentrate on creating good games that their fans enjoy, not waste time trying to figure out how to lure WoW players away from the game that they love.

Mac, that was a mature well reasoned post. BURN Him!

macd21 said:

Very good point and it's why D&D is dead to me (well, it's not just 4th edition...). Oh, and Exalted. That's dead to me as well. I do disagree that most people aren't intellectually lazy. That is a factor, just not the only one.

I blame WoW for the 4th ed D&D. Ridiculous!

Anonymus said:

Feh. I blame 3rd Ed D&D for WoW...

It gives me hope, however, that WoW can never do one thing that PnP games can. PnP is unlimited in its scope. The only boundries are the ones in my imagination. Rouge Traders design diaries just about set me on fire with excitement. Just think of the possibilities! No video game or MMO, no matter how complex, can come up with as flexible and unrepeatable events as I have experienced while playing table top games.

Never fear. They may be easy. But we're more awesome.

I think macd21's post sums up my feelings as well.

I play WOW, I play tabletops, and I also GM Dark Heresy. That said, I would always leave my WOW toons in the dust if someone said "hey, let's roleplay."

I consider these two distinct hobbies that fulfill two very different interests.

Tabletop games fulfill my love of storytelling. MMO's are just a mechanical game. To me, to call them the same is like saying reading a novel is the same as playing Monopoly. Despite their names, I do not consider most MMO's to be a "RolePlaying" game.

And when it comes to exercise of my free time, story telling will always win out over a flashy mechanical game. It is quite frankly why the GW tabletop games never appealed to me much, except as pretty shelf decorations.

So as mac said, tabletop RPG companies that do well will be the ones that cater to people like myself (wow, I never thought I would find myself saying I am anything close to the target market of games about Space Marines and nuns with guns), who prefer storytelling to hack and slash.

Anonymus said:

So do I. Myself and and a number of other gamers I know have gone back to 3'rd ed. Wizards did the exact opposite of the recommendation above. They tried to cater to an audience whose primary goals are not best served by a pen and paper game.

honestly im sure RPGs will never die and im a fact of it i started when i was 15 thouroghly in love with WoW and because of how DH is and pen and paper games are im disgusted with MMORPGs now (fallout 3 excluded because i dont veiw it as an rpg) i love pen and paper because unlike wow i can choose anything my mind can come up with unlike being an ork warrior for the umpteenth time and oh yes im 16 now very soon to be 17 and i have a group of 7 or 8 ppl that are all under twenty that play and yes 3.5 is so much better than 4 it makes me want to burn all the 4 ed books in a witch hunters pyre...

I'm not sure it's just World of Warcraft or MMOs in general. I believe that it is the fault of computer games; they are far too accessible and do not require all that setting up. It takes less effort to play against others online than to organise a day or night of roleplaying. Yesterday, I attempted to arrange a game of Arkham Horror and no one was interested because they were having a LAN day.

These days, I just run roleplaying games via a forum. I'm close to giving up on tabletop roleplay.

I did a lot of good Roleplaying on my WOW server and have a good RP community who rather take the Background of WoW to create there own adventures, story-archs and backgrounds. It takes a bit of effort to beat the mechanics sometimes but it is a very rewarding virtual WOW Pen and Paper gaming table.

And many of the people who participate in these WOW Rps are persons who get very involved but never knew about RPs in the first place. I do intro rounds to school classed once a year on a book fair. It is now much easier to explain to the young ones what Pen and Paper is all about, since they already now the mechanical side of it.

Normally at least some of them get hooked up. And that is the potential for growth! 11 Millionen potential Pen and Paper gamers! If only every 5th hundered one start also doing P&P we got 22000 new gamers.