I'm new to the forum and didnt find if this was already discussed.

We've played 4-5 games now and it seems that from the technologies Warsun is far too powerful corresponding its place in the tech tree. Also its pretty much only thing most people take (after getting the required techs of course). It's like Military card in Advanced Civilation, once someone takes it everybody has to take it to survive.

There are few races that can live without Warsun though, the nomadic one comes in mind (although it felt rather difficult, might have been just lucky to get second place with it.)

It might be that we are just too new for the game and havent realised effective tactics against Warsun. I'm sure there are.. ..i hope..

So I'd like to hear about your tactics against warsun, without warsun and of course possible House rules for it. We were thinking of dropping its movement by one, cause even dreadnoughts dont move that fast. (It's also rather silly that a globe that size moves faster than dreadnoughts and transports without tech.)

well, when i bought the game war sun seemed too powerful also, but after some games you'll discover that there are far better ways to invest your resources. one can have only two war suns on the table at the given time and it costs a fortune. so i think there are only a few races capable to use this tactic efectively. others have far better options. it depends from your race

I've not taken war suns for absolutely ages. If the average games lasts around 7 rounds, getting the techs giving you a war sun does actually take a long time, unless you're Muaat, Sardakk Norr, or Jol-Nar. Even then, the resource cost alone prohibits effective fielding of them, and taking war sun means you don't get other useful techs like neural motivator, xrd transporters, gen synthesis, cybernetics etc.

Cruisers win. They're fast, the first red tech makes them only slightly less likely to hit than dreadnaughts, there are lots of action cards that make them better, and they're cheap. A carrier with ground troops/fighter screen will usually make an invasion successful from turn three.

Destroyers with ADT are the best unit in the game. In my experience, it seems War Suns are bought by the newer players unless they are close to it on the Tech Tree (start with 2 pre-requisites).

Second, while they are powerful you don't need to have them to win. There are very few combat objectives and War Suns can help with those, but they aren't necessary. They are also very vulnerable. They only have 2 hits and there are 4 Direct Hit! cards in the deck to make the second hit useless. With fighters being relegated to the nerf bin, War Suns lost a lot of their power in SE. The cards friendly fire and the ADT tech, make fighters expensive and no as cost efficient as destroyers.

War Suns are also expensive. If you're not buying a WS you can buy 2 Carriers full of fighters.

Spend the money you normally would on WS tech and buy Carriers and GF's and XRD (or Stasis Capsules) and expand as fast as you can. This will allow you to build a better fleet by the time they get their WS out.

As you become successful without using WS, they will become less popular. They are an afterthought in our group.

The biggest thing warsuns have going for them is the punch they pack into a single fleet supply token. To maintain a powerful destroyer fleet you need a lot of your tokens in fleet supply. To maintain a fleet made of warsuns, dreads, carriers and fighters you don't need as much fleet supply, destroyers give you one hit per fleet supply the more expensive options give you far more hits per fleet supply.

Of course this advantage costs you quite a bit of resources.

Warsuns are also the best way to clear out ground forces other than the bacterial weapon.

Also to avoid direct hit with warsuns and dreads simply use them to absorb pds fire. Direct hit cannot be played on pds shots so your ships are safe.

warsuns are also an efficient use of space dock production capacity, one production capacity gets you three dice two hits and six carrier capacity. With destroyers one production capacity gets you one die and one hit.

Using the secondary on prodution to build a warsun is always a nice little suprise.

All that being said, I get warsuns far less often than any other player in my group, They are one of those things that you should have in your mind for certain situations but are certainly not a requirement to win.

Yeah, they are pretty good at taking down GF's. But how many times do you really need to take out more than 2? It's not often that there are planets with heaps of GF's where a WS is useful.

The biggest drawback to them is how friggin expensive they are. Sure, they only take on FS and one production slot, but how many times do you have enough resources to make more than just a WS?

While they are good for PDS fire, I'd rather lose a fighter than waste resources bringing a WS along. Unless you're going around with uber huge fleets and have all your cruisers and destroyers on the board, WS are a waste of a tech and every one you buy is a waste of money. They are second only to DN's in wastes of money.

There are only a few races where WS are genuinely useful. Hacan, Jol nar, Muatt and N'orr. Everyone else starts too far away from WS Tech to make it worth it.

12 Resources is a ton of resources. In the average game, the average player will only have 9-14 resources in planets. The rest he'd have to make do with TG's and that'd still be expensive.

Unless the game is very combat oriented, I wouldn't bother. Remember, the player who fights the least, usually wins.

I definately agree that only certain races should really go for warsuns, they are not for everyone.

In the last game I played I was the L1Z1X and actually got warsuns(not a common thing for them) I only picked them up because I had all my carriers and dreads on the board away from home and was facing a warsun fleet with lightwave deflector in range of my home system and needed some potent plastics at home with a small fleet supply. It cost me a ton of cash but it detered my opponent and I went on to win the game.

I always recommend to play with most of the rules of shattered ascension. In this case, DNs would have 2 rolls and loose one when they're hit, while the WS can take two hits before being destroyed, but loosing one die with every sustained hit. Makes DNs much more valuable and you need to bolster up your fleet.

I would avoid house rules like the plague, warsuns really are balanced, it just sounds like you haven't had enough experience with them.

Shattered Ascencion is an almost completely alternate ruleset. It's very good work but not for everybody. The WS/DN argument presented by Stefan was just a minor part of it.

There's nothing wrong with houserules. A good chunk of the SE expansion was built around player-created houserules.

For example:
Artifacts, Facilities, Imperial II SC, many AC's, the Strategic Withdrawal (this one I developed for a PBeM I ran) etc.

For what it's worth, I'm one that tends to avoid major house rules. (I'm not really interested in Shattered Ascension because of how drastically it changes the game, for instance; it's not necessarily bad, just too many changes for my tastes). That being said, I almost never play without the Dreadnought/War Sun changes from the game anymore. The War Suns are still balanced, but it really beefs up Dreadnoughts to make them more worth their $$.

My group played our second game this past weekend. First game was 6 players, this second time was 4. The only player to buy any Warsuns was the Embers of Muat player this second game, and he lost at least 3 in battles.

FunkyBunch said:

For starters in terms of expense if you have Warsuns you almost certainly already have Sarween tools (unless you skipped it with Focused Research), so it's more like 11 resources.

Also a Warsun has three dice, and carries up to six fighters/GF/PDS in it. A pair of Dreadnoughts and a Carrier is also three dice, but costs 13 resources and has poorer overall combat power (one 9 and two 5s vs three 3s, 1.4 hits per turn vs 2.4). The advantage to the DN/CV combo is that it can take two hits before losing any unit, and 5 to completely kill vs a Warsun's two, and you can build piecemeal. OTOH since the WS is less a strain of FS and you definately need Sarween Tools to buy them you can argue that you can fill the empty slots with a couple DDs to absorb the extra hits, or even CAs if you build the escorts on a different turn or shipyard and use ST with them.

Also a Warsun is five techs, three of the prereqs are highly useful (Hylar V Laser, Deep Space Cannons, Sarween Tools) while to get a DN/CV up to speed two (equal to all but the starting Muaat WS) you need six techs, Antimass Deflector, XRD Transport, Enviro Compensator, Stasis Capsules, Neural Motivators and finally Type IV drives. Depending on what you start with a WS with it's built in 2 move might look like a better, self escorting offensive carrier than all the techs to build up DNs to keep up with your carriers.

The Wiki board had a recent posting about how the N'orr should consider an early sprint to WS in expansion. The argument being it is two techs to XRD transports for them, but only three to WS, and their +1 bonus on top of the WS's high to hit numbers mean it virtually never misses.

sirjonsnow said:

AFAICT WS are like modern day Nimitz Class CVNs. "A Target draws fire in direct proprotion to it's uniqueness or combat power. For this reason carriers are known as bomb magnets." You need to surround them in a battle group of lesser forces (Fighters, Cruisers, and Destroyers) to be ready to 'take a hit' for your Warsun. Though WS also draw all the direct combat ACs like 'Direct Hit' and 'Target the Flagship', making Nanotech look like a nice investment to keep them off your butt.

All these replies are really good!

Pros of the WarSun: High firepower, carrier ability all for one CC in fleet supply. Also some strong red techs on the way. Only one build slot at your spacedock. Again, all for one CC in fleet supply and allowable builds at the spacedock!!!

Cons: Cost. 12 resources is monstrous for 2 hitpoints of damage! To beef it up as a self-contained fleet you need another 3 RPs to give it 6 fighters (which takes time at the nearest possible spacedock). To make it a truely unstoppable force you need a couple of carriers tagging along with additional fighters and the necessary GFs. This takes at least 2 rounds to build and another round or two to ge to the actual objective site.

I guess it comes down to the fact it ain't an immediate game winner. The biggest problem with WarSuns is the loss of strategic initiative while you muster the unstoppable force. It really does take an inordinate amount of time to do. I've never lost a planet in my F2F games ever, but I've only ever won a game.

The last game I played was beautifully won by a very beleaguered player. Militarily he was a shambles, but he clinched the game through a combination of technological, industrial and economic objectives. To put it mildly, I am still in awe of the win. I was the Jol Nar, possessing a fleet and position that was unassailable, enemies running away in sheer panic at what I had mustered, but this guy won the game like an experienced pro.

Be careful of chasing the WarSun. You will be the galactic juggernaught but victory may go to the swift rather than the strong. Objectives win points, not isolated battles.

BTW, if you're the Barony of Letnev (pretty much my favourite to date), don't even bother with WarSuns. Your fleet supply and production at your HS will push operational tempo like a bull at the gate. Go go go!!!

Had missed the optional rule to beef Dreadnoughts. Indeed they are the ones i find actually lacking compared to Warsuns. So your suggestion is that if i see other players going for the Warsuns again, I should rush to fill objectives. Thanks for all the replies