here is the scenario:

i have a five hand size character and my opponent has promo ukyo. i activate fortune and glory changing ukyo's handsize to 5, then ukyo activate's his form on his next turn while still at a five hand size. My question is when fortune and glory wears off will ukyo be at a four hand size or a six hand size. (5-1=4, 7-1=6)

6. He permenantly reduced his handsize by 1. So when his handsize goes back to "7" it becomes "7-1"

What i wonder is can he even form at all? FnG says "until your opponents next ready step" and "is equal to" meaning that during that whole window, his handsize is equal to yours. So is he able to pay the cost to F at all?

FnG isn't a continuous ability, it sets an effect and tells you when that effect wears off.

Tagrineth said:

Um. That IS a continuous ability.

No. He is saying your handsize gets set and then will not change. So it will go to 7-1 = 6. Then drop back to original handsize.

When the F is played it takes a snapshot of your current HS, subtracts 1, then uses that as the new value. If the handsize then changes, it does not "update".

A static is something like blinding rage. If it was just a static "your character gets -1 handsize" then it would be different.

Strange card though....promo ukuo before my time.

Stamp for Smazzy.

Aslum,

Continuous abilities are defined in Section 2.10

F&G is a Played ability as defined in section 2.9, and further detailed 2.9.1

It's effect (Which is detailed in 2.13) has a duration which is specificed outside of the normal window of when effects would terminate.

I think you mean 2.9.3, 2.9.1 is Forms. Regardless if it is an effect, then the rules do not state how to apply it.

If it generates a continuous ability then the rules do explain how to apply it when there are multiple ones to be applied.

If instead you want this to be a "static effect" then you need to define what a static effect is in the rules, and how static effects are resolved.

aslum said:

F&G is an R covered under 2.9.3

Ukyo is an F covered under 2.9.1

what happens when those abilities are played is covered under Effects (2.13)

aslum said:

Who said it generates a continuous ability? It just has a lingering effect, that's all.

I've heard of continuous abilities.

I've heard of static effects. (In M:TG)

What is a lingering effect? It's certainly not defined in the rules.

aslum said:

It just means its an effect that ends at a different time then end of turn.

aslum said:

Yanni, it has an effect.

Effects are defined in the AGR.

First off, please don't use my name in the forums. If I wanted my name used in such a manner, I would have used that as my username. Just because you know it doesn't mean it is approriate. It implies familiarity and intimicy that does not exist between us. This is the not the first time you have been asked to refrain from such.

Second, effects are defined in the AGR, but the resolution of multiple, possibly conflicting ones is not. This situation is not explained sufficiently by the AGR.

aslum said:

Aslum,

Rather then being combative and troll like in your posts, if you felt that the AGR did not cover effects sufficiently, you should have said so. This is the first time in all of your posts that you've said as much.

I'm really not clear on what part of effects you feel that the AGR does not cover. Additionally, if you would like to see a change to the document, you could take the tact that Armed Pirate did, and suggest specific lines of revision.

My apologies that you are offended that I used your name. However it seems to have accomplished my desired end. It had you change your combative nature of your responses, and actually had you explain what your issue is.

Remember for all you like to abuse and troll the rules arbiters, we are volunteers, who have full time jobs, who do this of our free will, and do not get paid to deal with your trolling.

I was not offended that you used my name. It is not hard to link the two, but it is annoying, especially as I never gave you permission to. The fact that I did not use it as my screen name implicitly suggests that it was not my intention to use my real name here. The last time you did so I politely you asked you not to, your refusal to accord me such a basic courtesy is pretty rude.

Regardless, I am offended by your current slander. Just because I ask difficult questions, does not make me a troll. I understand that you are volunteers, however that doesn't give you or Tag the right to flame me.

Back on topic, the current situation is one where the rules completely fail.

You have two contradictory effects, and while there are rules for resolving continuous abilities there are not rules for how to resolve effects in a situation like this.

At the most basic the Ukyo effect makes a permanent change to a temporary statistic. You can't just errata him to say printed handsize because then it doesn't work the way it's supposed to after the first time.

aslum said:

For what it's worth, I never actually saw your previous request. After the last time we asked you stop trolling, for the longest while if I saw any threads had you as a poster, I just chose not to read them. I am now aware of your request, and will comply only by calling you by aslum, and not accidentally capitalizing the A, which has previously offended you, and you have previously asked me not to do.

aslum said:

Okay, Tag was out of line when he went off on you previously, we've covered that, he's been reprimanded.
As for asking difficult questions, what you tend to do is take a thread off course from it's original question. After an answer has been given on a subject you tend you go in a completely different direction. If you look at the definition of trolling, taking a discussion off course for a personal agenda falls under trolling. If you feel that I am slandering you, then so be it. You feel that way.

I don't have a challenge with difficult questions.

However stating "There is nothing in the AGR about effects." is fallacious.

aslum said:

F&G vs. Ukyo is as follows

Ukyo sets an ongoing modifier to handsize.

F&G sets handsize.

Handsize - Ukyo's Modifier = Ukyo's handsize.

If he's F'd 3 times, and he's against a Hugo who F&G's both players handsize to 4, 4-3 is 1.

When the Fortune and Glory expires, Ukyo's handsize returns to 7-3 = 4

I get that you see an unresolved conflict. Sadly, I don't understand / see that same conflict. I am openly stating this so that we can communicate, and you can hopefully express the conflict that you are seeing in different terms so that we can reach a mutual understanding, and hopefully "resolve" the situation to your satisfaction.

Antigoth said:

maybe its early and im tired but i think this contradicts what you stamped me saying earlier. Either way looks like one of us misunderstood the other...

I was saying that the Form basically replaces his curent HS with (current HS minus 1). So say ukyo had Formed 3 times. He has a HS of 4. His opponent with 5 HS drops FnG. When FnG's effect resolves the opponent sets both HS to 5. Ukyos current HS becomes 5. The modifier from the F had already been applied

HS = 7

Form making HS 7-1 = 6

Form making HS 6 - 1 = 5

Form Making HS 5 - 1 = 4

FnG making HS = 5

FnG wears off, Ukyo checks himself for HS, HS = 7

Its not like he gets a "-1 HS counter" or anything.

Antigoth said:

Now you are putting words in my mouth.

I never said that. I said several similar things, but they don't actually mean what you misquote me as saying there means.

What I said specifically was that the AGR does not cover how to resolve multiple effects. More specifically what order to apply them in.

You have a nice long explanation of the way things work that isn't actually based on the AGR.

aslum said:

I don't see that. I do not understand how my explanation is not based on the AGR.

Help me out by suggesting how you feel what I'm writing could be covered by the AGR since you feel that it isn't.

Smazzurco said:

Yeah... I was reading you as saying it to match what I described.

No, Ukyo remembers his ability. That Permanent -1hs is what causes that to happen.