Ok, so using the gloves allow you to use a Basic Weapon single handedly with out the -20 mod.

They're considered Rare (as per Errata 3.0), and they're really quite cheap.

So, provided a character can Find them and is willing to pay over the odds for a pair of custom made and can spare the time for them to be made, should they be allowed to buy them knowing full well that under their bunk is a pair of Autoguns waiting to be used together...

Would you allow it?

Part of me wants to say "Hell no! that way lies Twinkery that is hellish and on par with DnD at its worst..." but another part of me wants to say "ok, so they Were using two Autopistols, they got the Guns and the Gloves and paid a LOT of xp for the talents that pretty much mean theres not much in the way of Negative mods. And dear gods the Fun to be had with all that damage...."

I'm Torn.

I would allow it, unless its a case like a player wanting to dual wield 2 melta-cutter, or any weapon heavier than SB of the user, so to dual weild 2 autogun that each weighs 3.5kg you a SB of 4.

The Abitrator in my game was very nearly dual-wielding shotguns, but decided against dropping the 500 exp on the Agility advance she needed to do it right. To my mind that sort of cinematic flash is very appropriate... of course, one must remember that what the acolytes can do, the cultists can do too.

All of my combat characters have a recoil glove as an essential buy with your starting money, since avaliability dosn't count

Most people I see taking recoil gloves are Metallican Gunslingers who like to use dual Hand Cannons. Occasionally, at higher ranks, might see someone go with a recoil glove for a single Hand Cannon/Bolt Pistol and off-hand a melee weapon of some sort. Some of the niftiest (yes, I said it) Bolt Pistols have enough recoil to count similar penalties as a Hand Cannon.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I generally consider recoil gloves only to be available as accessoires to power armour.

I've houseruled that recoil gloves are custom built as an add-on for each weapon (as well as for each character)- any other weapons that the players want to use with it must be modified to match the grip of the original weapon they bought them for as closely as possible. At the same time, I also let the player get a scope built into the gun, which can only be viewed from a steam-punk style monacle, provided the player is using the recoil glove and the gun (a hunting rifle, to be precise)

Recoil gloves plus Carnodon pattern Hand Cannons are perhaps my favourite combination, more so if theres a pair of them...

Brother Praetus said:

Exactly!

It's one of the things I'd get decided on before an adventure starts - it's almost a definition to me: 'Are we playing pistol grips, recoil gloves and dual-wielding Vanaheims ... or not?' Popcorn shoot 'em ups can be fun but I'd hope most campaigns didn't go down that road....

I kind of like everything to be available in theory but for the GM to bring some reality (actual, not unnecessarily punitive and annoying) into it - can't imagine squeezing through a crowd with an autogun slung over each shoulder, pickpockets stealing your clips from the side you're not looking, Arbites constantly stopping you etc, so you'll decide to swap the longarms for shorter ones that can be worn under your coat.

I like the idea of the glove having to be tailored to the person and weapon but I'd go for weapon type - pistol shotgun, handcannon and Sacristan are similar enough....

Well, considering the only player who asked about getting some was playing a noble, I figured why not go the whole hog? If nothing else, it's an excuse to soak him for good quality or better (with all the implications for availability that entails...) and level the playing field with the other PCs (who currently are only earning 1/10th of what he is; and we've already established that his character is a jerk who would only loan them money at punitive interest).

Personally, I'm not so certain that individual weapons within a class would be similar enough (I'm no expert on firearms, but I imagine there'd be differences in butt width and so on), and anything like that, which would force you to grip the weapon differently (even to such a small degree you wouldn't consciously notice) would decrease the effectiveness of recoil gloves: they only lock rigid when your hand is in a certain position (as determined by the grip of the weapon you're holding), yes? If the weapon forces you to hold your hand in a slightly different position, then either your glove won't lock, or it will lock, but you won't be holding the weapon sufficiently firmly and the recoil will still punish your wrist, as the gun slams back in your hand and whacks it...

YMWV though.

I'd tend to allow it, to be honest. On the whole, looking over the range of pistol and basic weapons now available there is no clear advantage in terms of damage or penetration in using a basic weapon rather than a pistol. By dual-wielding basic weapons what you're getting is better range and clip capacity (and on average a higher ROF - but unless you roll freakishly well there's no real difference between firing say 6 and 10 shots on FA - most of your 'extra' shots will still miss). On the other hand you get the disadvantages that they're a lot harder to conceal and they're not as flexible - you can't use them in close combat. As long as you play that consistently there's no clear munchkin-ising advantage to using basic weapons, it's just a different style (and one that you're only really going to be able to use in situations in which you can wander around with whatever the hell military grade hardware you want without attracting the wrong sort of attention - this happens very rarely in the sort of games I run).

If I was going to tweak anything, I'd institute a house rule that recoil gloves (which as the blurb makes clear work by strapping the glove to your forearm - and likely clipping the gun into the glove too) take two full rounds (per glove) to put on or take off and that Quickdraw talent reduces this to a single round. While you've got the gloves attached you basically can't do anything with your hands except fire the guns. So if you've got one on in each hand you'll need to take one off to reload. If I was feeling really mean I'd rule that putting a glove on and clipping the gun in place takes two hands, meaning you need a friend to help... All of that makes no difference at all in most combat situations (through it will if you get someone engaging you in melee combat...) but it underlines the fact that basically your character is wandering around with guns tied to his hands. This makes most things other than shooting very difficult.

Exactly! If dual-wielding guns when wearing gloves that have locked around the guns... just what are you going to do when they jam? Or you run out of ammo?

How do you tell the gloves to unlock? In my game, I let this depend on their quiality, where they range from impractical mechanical releases that require a second (or third) hand to use, to synaptic interfaces that allow "mind control" via a MIU implant. As nobody has a MIU, or the cash to get good quality ones, quick-release buttons are all they have.

Which still means that reloading is a pain in the but

Interesting ideas.

I was considering adding a -5 agility (or even -10) penalty to rolls that require fine manipulation when wearing the gloves. That was mostly to put off the rules munchkin assassin in the party though. It wouldn't deter a less subtle class like guardsman but then it's not as easy for them to get the skills to do it.

As a GM, I've simply said it's a power-armour upgrade. Clear-cut. As a player though, I'm not very willing to try it out either. One, it doesn't really fit my character to be dual weilding such weapons (I'm expecting one of my fellow PCs to point out my weaponry at the current moment and moot my point), nor do I want to possibly anger my GM. I always try to avoid the latter. I really just view this (when using say, autoguns, Vanaheims, etc.) as trying to powergame as much as possible. At least my PCs know that I generally scale to their levels.

" When the user grips a weapon, it locks into a rigid strut around the hand and wrist, thus preventing wrist or arm damage when the weapon discharges. "

Your grip is not locked on the weapon; these are not locking gauntlets from D&D 3.X , but a shock absorbing brace made out of what sounds to be smart materials. I know competition shooters who wear braces to help alleviate felt recoil on their wirsts. There are many ways IRL for compensating for recoil. Why so many people seem to have a problem with the Recoil Gloves is beyond me. It's a logical advance on what we already have going on in real life; gas venting, shock-absorbing rifle stocks, and shoulder pads to help alleviate punishing recoil.

And besides which, anything a PC can do, an NPC can do as well.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I would most definetly allow that. It is cinematic, and you would need an extreme BS to actually get many hits with two autoguns. It is not necessarily better than using two autopistols. But it is definetly much a more fun and heroic image of the character in combat. I pretty much allow my players to use whatever they want, as long as it is reasonable (dual weilding two heavy stubbers might be possible, but not practical - as seen on youtube clip). If it brings fun to the game, and does not cause other characters to be unnecessary because of balancing issues. Let the players have it. In the end the insanity and corruption points will be what does them in, not combat.

Well, one problem is that of weight.

Autoguns are comparable to modern day assault rifles in weight and length. A regular autogun weighs 3,5 Kg without ammo. Add in the weight of a full clip and its at 3,85. For AllOut Munchkin Extravaganza, add a Fire Selector and 2 Extra Clips for a Grand Total of 5 Kg.

Then try holding a 5 Kg, 1 metre (almost, can vary) long lump 'o metal at one of its endpoints, using just one hand. Then try to actually hold it steady, pointing it at something.

I'd go along with the gloves compensating for recoil of heavier weapons than pistols, but to allow using basic weapons in one hand... just doesn't make sense.

Mounting a Pistol Grip might make it balanced enough to hold in one hand, but does nothing for recoil. This should further increase the weapons weight (what's with the x1/3 on p. 141 anyway?), and now dual wielding two of these munched up babies means holding more than 10Kg of metal in your arms in a combat situation....

Now try to Dodge

To sum up: I really like the idea of recoil gloves. But dual wielding assault rifles is just silly. (I actually tried it while in the Army, just for kicks. I used the carrying straps for support, bearing most of the weight on my shoulders, but even so a -60 to BS would be appropriate: I had NO control whatsoever)

I really like the idea of using Big Guns, and Lots of Guns. Being able to spray more death than can be done with two autopistols is cool. But dual wielding assault rifles is just silly.

I really like the idea of ammo-flexibility intended by the Fire Selector, as shown in the Judge Dredd movie. But when used simply to increase ammo capacity of the weapon, and scrap the need to reload in battle, it seems "wrong". I like alot of the thoughts behind many of these upgrades, but think the implementation is lacking...

The recoil gloves certainly won't break the game. If it becomes unrealisticly unbalanced, alter the npcs with better armor, or have the machine spirits make the gloves not work due to, "spiritual neglect," durring a key encounter. Then make the character do a favor for a tech priest to get the spirits back in harmony and use it as a plot hook.

Brother Praetus said:

Dark Heresy PCs are fairly incompetent early on. Please don't take the toys away from us that make us better! We need these tricks to defeat the enemies of the Imperium. Let us have our play things.

I fully echo your sentiments Brother Praeus.

If we have the option, NPC's get it as well.

In fact, I'd like to see the combo on an NPC first. This way, when we kill him we get the upgrades for free!

~Mike

Darth Smeg said:

I tried to shoot fire from my hands once too. Nothing happened, not even a spark. So I disallow psykers in my game.

I tried to shoot fire from my hands once too. Nothing happened, not even a spark. So I disallow psykers in my game.

And I thought you wanted to give them safe powers... figures.

The difference is that psykers are a well-documented phenomenon of the 40k universe. There's lots of information about how they work, why they can draw upon the warp (and in which ways that can go wrong). The recoil glove is just one item that asks us to believe that for a measly 20 thrones, you can get an item that circumvents the laws of physics as we understand them. I have no problems with allowing their ability for power armour, because lifting a rifle in one arm should be easy if that arm is encased in servo actuators and armour. I have no problems either with allowing it as an upgrade to a bionic arm, for the same reason.

But an unmodified human? Meh.

Further, it eliminates the distinctions between pistols and basic weapons, among them the ability to dual-wield, for a trivial amount of money.

Cifer said:

I mean, realisitically wielding two guns at once is ridiculous, but gun-fu happens all the time in dark heresy games and no one brings it up. Why if I wield two swords at once do I do just as much damage as if I wield one of the swords two handed? (there is no rules for gripping a sword with two hands in dark heresy apparently).

Cifer said:

Oh, no, dear Sir, please say you didn't just play the physics card in 40k!

If you want to get into physics as we know them, just about everything in 40k is so wrong, it's not even funny. Titans can't exist, Ogryn would just die, chain anything is laughably ineffective... physics as we know them have no place in 40k as 40k has a slightly different set of physics. These physics are the Cool Physics or better known as Hollywood Physics and in Hollywood Physics, duel wielding two fully automatic machineguns mowing down scores of bad guys is most definitly possible and, in some instances, quite doable without any kind of mechanical apparatus. All that's needed is balls of steel, some bulging muscle, and a good one-liner. Dark Heresy has just decided to toss those prerecs and replace them with a mechanical apparatus.

If you really want to make it feel more like it fits with real world physics, it's never mentioned that the Recoil Gloves are merely gloves (aside from their name, but then, many things are named very misleading names). They could be a whole arm to chest harness effectively anchoring the weapon on pivot points on the users chest thus eliminating the weight on the arm and dispensing it to the waist. They could be something akin to the recoil harnesses used by the space marines in Aliens, or even to the power gauntlet illustrated on DH pg 123, only with a bit more support framework set up to the shoulder. In the end, 40k functions on the rule of cool. We need to stop being so damned frightened of the cool and embrace it. That's what the fiction describes, that's what the art depicts, and i have a feeling that's what the players expect when they come into the game.

As for it breaking physics for a mere 20 thrones, it doesn't break physics., It is perfectly in line with the physics 40k employs. For 20 thrones, someone gets to do what they can with pistols only at a greater range but not in melee... seems like a decent trade off to me. After all, lets face it, the difference in damage output between a pistol version of a weapon and the basic version is negligible at best. The only advantages a basic then has over a pistol is it's range and ammo capacity at the expense of concealability and melee usefulness. So, trading in the pistol version of a weapon for the basic version for 20 thrones seems quite fair when you look at it in that light.

Of course, I also believe the entire monetary system in DH is borked to no end to begin with and don't use it, so take the above statements salted to taste.

Oh, no, dear Sir, please say you didn't just play the physics card in 40k!

I consider WH40k physics to have an antiproportional relationship to technology involved therein. Meaning: Yes, Titans get away with breaking it - because they're relics of the DAoT. Kilometre long starships are fine, because the setting stresses again and again how rare the factories are that build them. But a piece of equipment 1/5 the price of your generic assault rifle (and the price of 2 packs of cigarettes - but I won't go there)? That just doesn't make it past my suspense of disbelief.

After all, lets face it, the difference in damage output between a pistol version of a weapon and the basic version is negligible at best.

That is debateable, especially when using relatively low-powered weapons against enemies with body armour. With a guardsman flak and a 4 Toughness bonus, the maximum damage inflictable by an autopistol is 4 (excluding righteous fury). An autogun would manage 5, which is a bonus of 1/4. Two autoguns on Full Auto can make that one point of difference pretty interesting.