The models are the expensive part of the kit. Paper and cardboard sell the models.

Do you have any sort of citation for this? Anything to back it up? Do you have any idea how much the cardboard costs? How much is in the Most Wanted pack? What the wholesale cost for 50% more would be? What the cost for the extra packaging would be? I don't really know personally, but I suspect it's non-trivial.

The Most Wanted pack contains: 6 dials (12 dial halves). 2 large ship bases, 8 small ship bases, a mess of tokens. That's a lot of cardboard. 20 Pilot cards, 19 upgrade cards. It's not just three bits of painted plastic.

I need a "Not sure if serious" gif here.

No, I don't actually have firm data. But come on... Are you serious?

But fine, let's play.

Simple comparison: Slave I and an X-wing. All comparison is Slave I first.

Cost: $30/$15

Large cards: 5/4

Small cards: 13/5

Cardboard: 2/1

Booklet: 1/0

Base: 1 large/1 small

So 1 large card, 8 small cards, and 1 extra cardboard plate are enough to double the price? A $15 LCG expansion pack is 60 cards - 12 times the difference here.

Most Wanted is pretty obviously a loss leader, just like the Core Set is.

If you question the core premise - that they're using cards to sell models - I honestly don't know what to say. I guess we can all be thankful that FFG isn't trying to exploit us by selling card packs, an instead giving us the cheap models packed in with the expensive cards

In your comparison, you completely miss that the Firespray model is also, what, three times the size of the X-Wing model? More than enough to account for the price increase.

In your comparison, you completely miss that the Firespray model is also, what, three times the size of the X-Wing model? More than enough to account for the price increase.

Uhm... that was actually my entire point Hexis had questioned my proposition that the model was the bulk of the cost while the cards were trivial, hence card inclusion was a way to motivate the sale of plastic. The comparison was trying to make a (shallow, admittedly) comparison of costs to determine where the bulk of the cost really was.

Yeah, people fixate on the dial, but there are other components missing. The Most wanted pack is designed to allow you to use 1 Y-Wing, 1 Firespray and 1 HWK for S&V. It also includes 2 Z-95s, and an entire Y-Wing and upgrade cards for all 6 possible ships. There are no other promises there. With what's in in the box for $40, it feels like a real good deal to me. I'm not sure why people are upset there is not more.

When this turns to the bigger question of having the pilot card and tokens for the base it turns dials into small beans.

I don't see why you shouldn't be able to use dial with the "extra" cards and base chits that you have. You don't get more of those just because you have the new ship.

To put it into perspective the things that keep you from mixing your Scum and Rebel ships should NOT be the ship models or dials but instead the pilot cards and base chits. It's just like the situation the Empire currently has which prevents you from running four Royal Guard Interceptors with a single Aces box plus two Interceptor expansions; you've got part of the pieces but not all of them.

With what's in in the box for $40, it feels like a real good deal to me. I'm not sure why people are upset there is not more.

Someone will always be upset that there is not more.

I'm still just thrilled that we're getting a conversion pack at all. I fully would have expected to see the HWK-290 and Firespray in new, individual, Scum-themed boxes.

In your comparison, you completely miss that the Firespray model is also, what, three times the size of the X-Wing model? More than enough to account for the price increase.

Uhm... that was actually my entire point Hexis had questioned my proposition that the model was the bulk of the cost while the cards were trivial, hence card inclusion was a way to motivate the sale of plastic. The comparison was trying to make a (shallow, admittedly) comparison of costs to determine where the bulk of the cost really was.

Now your proposition has changed and completely ignores the cardboard. My point is nothing is trivial. You have no data to back up your proposition. We know that cards and the cardboard do have a production cost. Packaging has a cost. Shipping has a cost. Everything has a cost. Nothing is trivial.

There is a significant amount of cardboard in the Most Wanted pack. 6 ships worth. Without the templates and asteroids that's likely less than the core set, but more than any other set (other than the huge ships, those base templates are huge). None of that is trivial. How is that difficult to understand?

Now your proposition has changed and completely ignores the cardboard. My point is nothing is trivial. You have no data to back up your proposition. We know that cards and the cardboard do have a production cost. Packaging has a cost. Shipping has a cost. Everything has a cost. Nothing is trivial.

There is a significant amount of cardboard in the Most Wanted pack. 6 ships worth. Without the templates and asteroids that's likely less than the core set, but more than any other set (other than the huge ships, those base templates are huge). None of that is trivial. How is that difficult to understand?

I included the cardboard in my breakdown. Perhaps "trivial in comparison to the ship" would be a better way to put it? Yes, everything has a cost... but those costs can probably be considered relatively equal when comparing different ships.

We can look at other examples if you like. We have an excellent one in the Decimator. It has 7 large cards compared to 5, and 13 small is the same as the Firespray. Probably 2 plates of cardboard, same as the Firespray. Same bases, same stands. Only difference is the ship. But the Decimator is 25% more expensive. So either those two extra rule cards cost $10 to add to the box, or the increase is entirely due to the ship.

Most Wanted is hard to gauge, because it's obviously discounted compared to 3 individual ships, but +$10 compared to the Aces boxes. Too many variables for it to contribute meaningfully.

<shrug> If you want to believe that the production cost of the cardboard is significant compared to the production cost of the finely detailed, precisely molded, hand-painted ships, that's up to you. But I think there is more than enough compelling evidence to point to the ships being the bulk of the cost.

Now, I've laid out some analysis for why I think what I do. Feel free to offer your own and we can have some passingly interesting discussion. Or don't, and stick to "Nuh UHHHH, you don't know!". My quota of tolerating ostriches around here is basically used up.

The YT-2400 vs the VT-49 is a good comparison, both have the same 3 cardboard sheets (I have 2 of each(, each one has 13 upgrade cards and 4 pilot cards. From what I understand the larger model increased the cost for a number of reasons, but not just because the model was bigger, but because the packaging needed to be redesigned, less can be shipped in the same volume, so shipping costs are higher, that kind of thing. So yes, the miniature is different, and led to other differences which increased costs.

Vanor, you should make a proffession out of splitting hair. I am done argueing with you, you seem to not understand that what to you is a point, for me is a deterrent, and to be honest, at this point you are just being obtuse at accepting somebody not liking to pay more that what is neccessary for him. Seriously, the "you lack the cards" when we are speaking about Z's still have me completely baffled. What card ? Wingman ? I have more than enough by now.

By the way i didn't complain in the content of the box Hexis. I am complaining on the dial policy by FFG for the same ships, different things, you know ?

I would sure like to see where I named you specifically. My point is people in general. Regardless of the "dial policy" (it's really more a component policy), you need more than just the dial.

The Most Wanted pack has just enough to support 2 Z-95s, there is not a bunch of spare stuff in there and only the dials are missing. The dials are only part of the equation.

Vanor, you should make a proffession out of splitting hair. I am done argueing with you, you seem to not understand that what to you is a point, for me is a deterrent, and to be honest, at this point you are just being obtuse at accepting somebody not liking to pay more that what is neccessary for him. Seriously, the "you lack the cards" when we are speaking about Z's still have me completely baffled. What card ? Wingman ? I have more than enough by now.

By the way i didn't complain in the content of the box Hexis. I am complaining on the dial policy by FFG for the same ships, different things, you know ?

The "cards" that you will likely like are those bits of cardboard that go on the base of your ships. I currently own two Z-95s. When I buy that upcoming box I'll go to four but two of those will be from Scum to go with my Rebel ships. Now I should be able to use all four in the same squadron. The problem is that my rebel ships just have two base bits so I only have four "rebel" bases to use and because they aren't all "Bandits" that means I couldn't field four Bandits in my squadron. I should be able to field Cracken, Blount, and a pair of Bandits (forget what pilots are backing each other) but if I MUST have REBEL dials for my Z-95s that will be a huge limiting factor.

Cards are somewhat of a limiting factor but it is the base chits that are the real limiting factor. Looking back at the Interceptor you will rarely fly more than four of them so two Expansion packs and the Aces pack will get your four models. The problem is those sets will NOT let fly all the possible 4 Interceptor permutations because you don't have the cards, or bases, to run four Royal Guards, Alphas, or even Avengers.

I would sure like to see where I named you specifically. My point is people in general. Regardless of the "dial policy" (it's really more a component policy), you need more than just the dial.

The Most Wanted pack has just enough to support 2 Z-95s, there is not a bunch of spare stuff in there and only the dials are missing. The dials are only part of the equation.

Well, the last page was basically me the one doing the "whining", so yeah it was basically the only one who you would be pointing out since your last post. But sure you can pull back now, nobody will ever know.

@Sure sure Vanor, we are again talking about Z's requiring cards like interceptor eats push the limit cards, or having the cards from the mostly useless Z expansion upgrade cards repeated over and over. Pilots ? Point difference is 1 point, nothing you can't play with.

Now I should be able to use all four in the same squadron

You will be able to, as Scum ships. The most wanted pack comes with additional Dials and Inserts for the ships beyond the one you normally get. They specifically created it so Rebel Z-95s and Y-wings already owned can immediately be used to flesh out the Scum line-up. FFG could have easily not done this and just released the repacks as regular ships.

They however chose to draw the line at allowing the Scum ships to be used as Rebels. I'm fine with this line. I understand that you have to make money off the new content otherwise it isn't worth producing and see the extra dials as a compromise between wanting to make the sales and wanting to placate the players that want everything as cheap as possible.

I guess that is just to make sure scum and rebel dials don't get mixed up. I can see why there would be an extra Y-wing dial so you can have 2 Y-wings with the most wanted pack in your scum squadron. To be honest Most Wanted is made for those who already have a X-wing miniatures collection.

If the Dalis themselves are the same FFG has already provided a solution, so long as you have a Z-95 and a Y-wing expansion for the base templates. Just buy a 3 pack of Rebel Dials and place your maneuver dials inside those when you want to use your ships as rebels. Seeing that the movement dials go in upside down the Scum color on the bottom doesn't even factor in. Buy a scum set for the reverse and boom you have 2 Rebel Y-Wings & 3 Z95s. Or 2 & 3 scum ships. Unless they ask you to break apart your dials to show the backing how would anyone know? Of course this relies on the maneuver dials for the 2 ship types being the same fro rebels and Scum.