The models are the expensive part of the kit. Paper and cardboard sell the models.

Do you have any sort of citation for this? Anything to back it up? Do you have any idea how much the cardboard costs? How much is in the Most Wanted pack? What the wholesale cost for 50% more would be? What the cost for the extra packaging would be? I don't really know personally, but I suspect it's non-trivial.

The Most Wanted pack contains: 6 dials (12 dial halves). 2 large ship bases, 8 small ship bases, a mess of tokens. That's a lot of cardboard. 20 Pilot cards, 19 upgrade cards. It's not just three bits of painted plastic.

I need a "Not sure if serious" gif here.

No, I don't actually have firm data. But come on... Are you serious?

But fine, let's play.

Simple comparison: Slave I and an X-wing. All comparison is Slave I first.

Cost: $30/$15

Large cards: 5/4

Small cards: 13/5

Cardboard: 2/1

Booklet: 1/0

Base: 1 large/1 small

So 1 large card, 8 small cards, and 1 extra cardboard plate are enough to double the price? A $15 LCG expansion pack is 60 cards - 12 times the difference here.

Most Wanted is pretty obviously a loss leader, just like the Core Set is.

If you question the core premise - that they're using cards to sell models - I honestly don't know what to say. I guess we can all be thankful that FFG isn't trying to exploit us by selling card packs, an instead giving us the cheap models packed in with the expensive cards

The models are the expensive part of the kit. Paper and cardboard sell the models. Take away that motivation, and it all falls apart. I don't love the system, but I understand it. And expecting that system, which has made X-wing their top seller, to change is probably a long shot.

Upgrade cards do tend to be packaged with ships they fit with. Every card that a ship needs that's packaged in another ship also fits that ship. Advsensors is very good on the Lambda Shuttle, PTL has a pilot dedicated to it pretty much, Stealth Device looks like they had the Firespray in mind. Predator matches with the TIE defender. I doubt it's deliberate "optimisation" of sales and is more that's a ship that fits the card.

You say this repeatedly, and it doesn't get any less ignorant any time you say it.

Although we are back to the actual function of the card, rather than "The background art defines which pack it comes in", so I guess that's an improvement. Sadly, there are still plenty of counterexamples out there that refute this theory.

So would you all be upset if the maneuvers are different?

So would you all be upset if the maneuvers are different?

Myself I'd be shocked... Because then either the S&V will be OP'ed or broken, depending on if you think the dial is better or worse.

I'm reading the FAQ here where it talks about "mistakes" and one example has a character assigning a B-Wing Dial to an X-Wing. There it simply states that if the maneuver revealed is a legal maneuver for the ship it is executed normally; if it is not a legal maneuver the opponent gets to pick a legal maneuver.

Assuming the Scum ship dials are the same as their Rebel/Imperial counterparts this really seems to me like it should fall under this same ruling. As long as the maneuver on the dial is legal it shouldn't matter what dial is actually getting used.

So would you all be upset if the maneuvers are different?

Myself I'd be shocked... Because then either the S&V will be OP'ed or broken, depending on if you think the dial is better or worse.

I agree with this. Even in the glaring case we have where ships of the same class have different stats (Falcon vs. YT-1300), the dial is the same. I'd be astonished if they came up different.

Assuming the Scum ship dials are the same as their Rebel/Imperial counterparts this really seems to me like it should fall under this same ruling. As long as the maneuver on the dial is legal it shouldn't matter what dial is actually getting used.

This seems to me like a recipe for chaos. There's a big difference between being able to figure out what a player was trying to do when something glitched and just saying the dials have no correlation to the actual ship.

As long as the maneuver on the dial is legal it shouldn't matter what dial is actually getting used.

If you want to play it that way, then go for it that's how I'd play it myself I think. But that is not FFG's stance, which is understandable.

just saying the dials have no correlation to the actual ship.

If the S&V dial is the same in every way other then the artwork to the current Z-95 I don't see how that's true. It's a Z-95 dial, and says Z-95 on it. Just has different artwork on the dial cover.

As long as the maneuver on the dial is legal it shouldn't matter what dial is actually getting used.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it sounds like he's suggesting that if I have, say, 2 Bs and 2 Xs and I pick 3 ahead for all of them, which dial I use for which ship is irrelevant. That seems a bit much to me.

I'll share what I posted in another thread:

In all honesty, FFG is doing my wallet a huge favor. If wave 6 hadn't been a third faction, I'd probably buy all of it. Now I feel content saving myself $40 (and more) for a faction I'll never play, and purchasing whatever cards I might need on the secondary market instead. The decision to not allow mixed dials is going to bite them in the @$$, and I'm okay with it.

I hate the fact that they are asking me to buy more products which i just don't need.

That's just it, you do need them. Lets say you have 2 Rebel Y-Wings and buy 2 boxes of Most Wanted. You do not have everything you need to play a 4 Rebel Y-Wing list. Even if you could use the dials you still are missing stuff. Like R2's, Ion Turrets, pilots, and base cards ect...

What you're effectively saying is you want to proxie the S&V Y-Wings or Z-95's for Rebel versions. What game company supports people using proxies of their products?

What kind of proxy ? Do you mean the dial ? Are you being really serious about this trying to argue with me what can or i can't dislike ? Find or not as a consumer something worth my money ? I know you are not being ill intended with this, but the oppossite, but it is something i have already my mind made up, and nothing you are saying sounds any more reasonable than what i had said, so why don't you just accept we disagree in this instead of trying to discuss something which needs no discussion ?

Will you spend your money on it ? Go ahead. Do you find it fine ? Be my guest.

What kind of company paints a model black instead of blue and says it is a complete different model ?

Edit - And just to make my point more clear. No, i do not find reasonable sales practice to sell twice the same model with different paint. FFG allows you to use scum Z's as rebels Z's for example, but not the dials. If the dial has the same maneuvers, it would be exactly the same, but only a differently painted dial. That move, even contradict themselves for what they did with the miniatures, and it is a move that has not an impact into the gameplay (since it can already get confusing with mirror matches), but my wallet, so yes, i find that kind of moves disgusting. And i will repeat myself, i do find it disgusting, that doesn't inherently makes it disgusting or wrong to everybody. I don't want to you to convince you to agree with me.

As long as the maneuver on the dial is legal it shouldn't matter what dial is actually getting used.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it sounds like he's suggesting that if I have, say, 2 Bs and 2 Xs and I pick 3 ahead for all of them, which dial I use for which ship is irrelevant. That seems a bit much to me.

I'll say you're reading a bit too much into that. The intent is that if the Z-95 has the same dial as the Z-95 I'll have a hard time seeing why you can't just use a Z-95 dial for your ship. I don't mention faction because the faction shouldn't matter as the ship type is the same.

If there is a Y-Wing only card I suspect it should be usable on any Y-Wing regardless of faction. By this same measure dials should be ship dependent and not faction dependent.

That seems a bit much to me.

If that's what he's saying, then yes I'd agree. Using a Tie Interceptor dial for a X-Wing as long as you pick maneuvers both have... That wouldn't fly. Or even as you say a X and B dial.

but using a S&V Z-95 dial for a rebel Z-95, mechanically there shouldn't be an issue.

I'm reading the tournament rules where it talks about "component modification" it mentions that player may mark their maneuver dials to indicate ownership. While I see something about asymmetry on the back of the dials the only other restriction I see is that they can not compromise function. Assuming the Scum dials have the same maneuvers as the original dials there is nothing there that says they should not be usable.

Perhaps my way of "personalizing" my dials is to completely color them a specific color. I do this with my originals and my scum dials and now they are indistinguishable but I couldn't use one from the 'wrong' faction despite them being identical?

No, i do not find reasonable sales practice to sell twice the same model with different paint.

If you want to use the S&V dials and everyone you play with agrees to it, then go ahead. I believe I've made it more then clear that I would have no issue with this myself.

But even if you can use the dial, you're still missing a lot of other bits that you need to fly a 4 Gold Squad w/Ion Turret list. You won't have enough base cards I don't think, you won't have enough pilot cards, you'll not have enough Ion Turret cards or Astromech's either. So it's not just the dials that are an issue here.

So if you want to use 2 of the Most Wanted Y-Wings for a rebel list, you're going to have to proxie nearly everything but the models themselves. Name one company that official supports something like that?

VanorDM, that's an extreme, because you are speaking about a ship which lives or dies with the ion cannon at this point, and that spamming it, is actually counter productive.

Z's are actually the reason i am voicing my opinion mostly. I have 3 Z's, if i buy one more rebel Z, and get 2 most wanted, i would have 8 Z's. Everything i need to play scum Z zerg, or rebel Z zerg no problem. Or if i wanted to do a 5 Z's plus Etahn, but if i wanted to do some travel to a tournament, i wouldn't be able to play it, because i would need to have a surplus of 4 Z's just for the dials (since i can use scum models as rebels and viceversa). That's annoying for sure. Sell me the dials for a reasonable price ,and i would be more likely to not be annoyed by it.

There are more options than the Y you are speaking about, and it is obviously not that big of a deal for me, since Y's actually get 2 dials in most wanted.

I don't think we will have the problem in our zone, but it is an annoying practice for sure, and it is not like FFG needs to do that kind of things to boost sales to be honest.

I'm reading the tournament rules where it talks about "component modification" it mentions that player may mark their maneuver dials to indicate ownership. While I see something about asymmetry on the back of the dials the only other restriction I see is that they can not compromise function. Assuming the Scum dials have the same maneuvers as the original dials there is nothing there that says they should not be usable.

We have an email response from Frank indicating that faction-mixed components will not be allowed.

VanorDM, that's an extreme

No it's just an example, A 4 Y-Wing list isn't exactly extreme. But you have the same issue with Z-95's, namely that you're still short bits other then the dial.

If you have as you say 3 Z-95's you're going to have the same problem running 6 of them that you will with 4 Y-Wings. You're missing bases, you're missing pilot cards, you maybe be missing upgrades you want for them all, like say Munitions Failsafe, ect...

Regardless of if you can use the dial or not, you're still missing stuff if you try to mix S&V stuff in with Rebel or Imperial lists.

It does look like you get enough stuff in MW to use a rebel Y-Wing as a S&V version in every box, 2 of each pilot card, 3 base cards, ect... Although it looks like you'd be short 1 set of cards and such for Z-95's.

but it is an annoying practice for sure, and it is not like FFG needs to do that kind of things to boost sales to be honest.

That I can agree to disagree on. I see why they're doing it, but that doesn't mean someone can't dislike it. But really my point is more about the fact that you won't have enough bits to use the S&V models in Rebel lists regardless of what dial you use.

Will Frank's emails be available in PDF format, or word-of-mouth only?

Will Frank's emails be available in PDF format, or word-of-mouth only?

I assume they'll be part of the Tournament rules when they update them for S&V

You are not missing bases neither cards VanorDM.

- 4x Talas 4x Bandidos (100 points)

Seriously, it is an extreme case because you are talking about one ship that is only used with a single upgrade that actually comes with it, and you are comparing it to Zs which are just basically disposable meat for the grinder. Since we don't even know what kind of cannons will come with wave 6, it is pointless to argue that you would really need the ion cannons in the first place.

I am going to gain absolutely nothing from buying 4 more rebel Z's expansions than the dials. And that's the point i am making.

- 4x Talas 4x Bandidos (100 points)

And when you want to use 6 Bandits or 5 Talas then what? Or if you only have 3 Z-95's you don't have 4 Bandits or Talas, you have 3 of each.

I'm not sure how you keep missing the point, that you will not always have enough bits to make a Rebel list work, if you're using S&V models, because they don't come with Rebel versions.

You may, depending on the list you're going to make, but you also may not. At which point you will have to either change your list, or use proxies.

- 4x Talas 4x Bandidos (100 points)

And when you want to use 6 Bandits or 5 Talas then what?

I'm not sure how you keep missing the point, that you will not always have enough bits to make a Rebel list work, if you're using S&V models, because they don't come with Rebel versions.

You may, depending on the list you're going to make, but you also may not. At which point you will have to either change your list, or use proxies.

You don't, because you don't have the bases or the pilot cards, not because you don't have a freaking dial with a different paintjob to those which you already own.

Will Frank's emails be available in PDF format, or word-of-mouth only?

I assume they'll be part of the Tournament rules when they update them for S&V

Hush, you! Don't interrupt the pointless snark! I hear it's going to turn into a stage show after a bit more refinement.

You don't, because you don't have the bases or the cards, not because you don't have a freaking dial with a different paintjob.

Which is the whole point I'm making.

Even if you can use the dial, you're still short other bits and pieces you need. No amount of Most Wanted boxes will give you more Rebel Pilots, or base cards... So again even if you can use the dial you still are missing things.

If you go into a tournament, and have 3 rebel Z-95's, do you think anyone is going to let you use the S&V base cards and pilots to run a 4 Bandit, 4 Tala squad, but have an issue with the dial?

So, just because I want to make this as clear as I can...

If FFG said you could use any factions dial for give ship, assuming of course it's the correct dial... You still will be short parts you need to make some lists, if you try to mix in the S&V stuff. Not just Ion Turrets, but things like Gold Squadron, or Bandit Squadron pilots, and maybe the bases for those pilots.

Or in other words, the dial is not the biggest issue here.