It has been bugging me lately that the Hive Worlders start off as T15 and FEL25. Does this really make any sense.

Given that most of my Hive World experience comes from Necromunda the game and the novels and the Kal Jerico comics. But it seems to me that given the conditions of a Hive World, those who live and survive past maturity would be extra-resilient to disease, waste, bad food and so forth. And it seems to me odd that a bunch of sump bathing, smelly, unwashed, dregs would have high charismatic skills.

I suppose it would vary from hive to hive and from what level you live on in the hive. With the lower the hive the lower the FEL and so forth.

For the record, if I were to write the stats for them it would be Agility 25+2D10 and Perception 15+2D10 and probably get Resistance (Substandard Living Conditions) or something like that.

I suppose in the end they needed to have the "charismatic" character option for PCs, but Imperial Worlder or some sort of Chartist Void Born or Commerce Planet/Pleasure Planet would have made more sense.

Or the noble from IHB.

Any thoughts?

I totally agree. While I can see waht they meant by the stat redistribution- it does fit a certain type of character (thinking of someone who's quick witted enough to bluff their way out of anything, a not unreasonable character archetype for a hive worlder), we're all way too familiar with the idea of unkillable hive bruisers, moody hammers, gang toughs, and the like.

I think the Volg Hive alternative origin presented in Inquisitor's Handbook is a good fit for the typical smelly, unwashed masses of the Underhive. I can see a case for the standard Hive World origin as the mid-hiver... with the high Fel being reflective for a kind of formal courtesy and good manners that accompany living in close quarters with a couple of million other people (I'm thinking of the sort of '80's stereotype of Japanese politeness here) rather than the charisma of the fast talking con-man.

I dont know, I think there is a genuine difference between knowing it is better to be nice to your 3 billion neighbors, then actually being quick witted, charming and +5% better then the rest of the imperium at FEL.

Im sticking with my judgement. Should have been high agility, low Perception.

Peacekeeper_b said:

That depends on how you define that +5 Fellowship. By your definition, I would agree. I just don't agree with that being the only way to get +5 Fellowship.

Still, if it works for you that's what counts.

Eh, justs bugs me. LOL.

But now I have to dig out the IHB to look at Volg.

Hopefully in future books and in Rogue Trader we will get more origins.

Why lower perception? I would imagine that being in an environment full of people and old, dangerous machinery would lend itself to at least an average perception.

spaceratcatcher said:

I see them as use to crowded, confined, enclosed environments. In general, in non-hive settings, their senses would be overwhelmed or at a disadvantage. In confined spaces with loud noises and darkness and what not they would receive no conditional penalties, making their overall perception better in the hive then a normal persons.

So Joe Imperial Worlder is at -20 in a Hive for Perception, making him 15 lower (more or less) than Jack Hiver. But once the confined areas are removed, Jack Hiver in unadjusted to lighting, the day/night cycle, wind, real weather and so forth.

The alternative is 25 Agility, 15 Fellowship of course.

Ah, that makes sense then. I suppose the reasoning behind the low toughess for hivers is that a life in such miserable conditions breeds sickly, malnourished individuals.

A lower perception doesn't make sense to slap on someone who has been raised to live in a verticaly bound enviroment with sprawlling spires as gang fights happen not only on a horizontal level but on multiple floors and angles at once. Even in a modern day city like St. Louis or New York, you have to have a good depth perception and visual awareness to move about the city. Fellowship in a spire shouldn't be high at all considering the pyschological fact that the more humans in each square mile the more apathic and amoral people will become to fullfil the needs of survival and Hive worlds are crammed dirty and mostly on the edge of Communistic in terms of Human treatement of middle class and lower class in views as such they're viewed as a working organic Cog to the machine instead of a propper individual.

would a lower perception be applied to a person working all day by a loud smoke and dust belching maschine? yeah, but i doubt any one would like to play a factory dreg. If you could have been a gunslinger or scum insted? and more important would the inquistion recruit you?

Sarius said:

Honestly, would the Inquistion recruit any rank 1 character?

The Hive Volg world supplies all your stone-cold killer needs when it comes to hivers and I'd generally use it for other underhive brutes as well.

Otherwise, there are several hiver archetypes that do fit the characteristics given: There's the charismatic con-man, the scrawny but sympathetic hive kid and the polite factory worker with a few health problems. I find it easy to believe that being crammed in with several millions of others leads to developing some people skills, simply because they're the most widespread ressource a hive has to offer.

Well to me, the great majority of Hive-born are not the scum of the Underhive (who may exist in the 100,000's but the billions of working class and mid Hivers. This vast majority probably never experience direct sunlight, dont have much space to exercise in, dont build resistances to natural bacteria, probably eat a monodiet of corpse-starch or soy product and otherwise lack the natural toughening of experiencing a wide range of enviroments. So to me, most Hive worlders should have reduced toughness - that makes sense.

SJE

Yeah, Toughness isn't all about Muscle Structure, for me, that's why Feral worlders have increased toughness as well, natural immunity ontop of a muscle structure bourne of hard living.

I've got a number of different hiver templates to bung on PC's that want them, not all hives are you're a-typical spire of iron, some are sprawling suburbs of industrial sectors under a blazing desert sun or pollution filled canals, others have better than adequete food, others are places you dont want to stop moving for too long... some have no gun culture so to speak of and others have various indiginous physiological effects on their inhabitants depending on how much gravity, oxygen, toxins or just a genetic heritage shared by the majority. It really just depends on 'your' particular hive.

I've got no real problems with the mid level, iron spire hiver following the -T, +Fel template for what it is. They live in a box apartment, never see sunlight and live on stuff some people would normally wipe off their shoes, no exposure to external bugs and bacteria. For all intents of purposes they live in something equivalent to an intensive piggery or poultry farm as battery animals, food laden with antibiotics, recycled water and it probably helps avoiding getting your head punched in by the neighbours for being at least likeable around 25% of the time

MKX, you should post your hiver templates somewhere. I, for one, would like to see them. While I don't have a problem with the base Hiver stats, it'd be nice to see your take on it. (Besides... and I confess to a bit of lazy selfishness here... it might help me with an idea I was having, of running an all-Necromunda campaign using the DH rules. )

from france

for me the hivers should have better perception and agilyty in their environement or similare one and only outside this environement lower characteritics.

There seems to be a sort of assumption here that lots of adversity & difficult conditions = need to develop abilities in order to flourish, so living in over-populated, deprived, polluted, malnourished conditions = someone who is bigger and stronger on a sort of 'survival of the fittest' logic. I'm not entirely sure this makes sense. The fact is that living in cramped, polluted places, suffering disease and malnourishment will make you a far less robust and physically impressive person than someone who has lived in a more healthy environment with a better diet. If this were not the case we would expect to find in RL that poor diet, surviving serious diseases, and exposure to dangerous chemicals makes you bigger, stronger and healthier than everyone else, which is clearly not the case. The fact is that going through these things may mark you out as having extraordinary natural resilience in that unlike everyone else you did not die they also tend to leave you with long-term health problems. These things cancel each other out. Not everything that does not kill us makes us stronger.

I can understand the logic of saying that Hives are unique environments, which those not raised in will face real difficulties in negotiating, but the opposite is also true - those whose lives have been spent confined in a Hive, never even seeing the sky or breathing unfiltered air, are likely to have real (and even more significant) difficulties negotiating any other environment. I'm not sure this state of affairs is best represented by an increase in Hiver's agility and perception, even one limited to Hive environments. Why would someone raised on a Death World, where the slightest mis-step or failure to read the subtle signs of the presence of a predator will prove fatal have lower Agility or Perception than a Hive Worlder, who mostly has to contend with threats that are human? The rules already factor in some modest changes to reflect these sorts of concerns, and for my money do a good job at it, giving Hivers penalties out of proper hab, abilities to dodge through crowds, and an increased Initiative. If anything, I think the Initiative bonus is too generous.

Overall, I think the Hiver background is tailored to reflect a low-level Hiver (likely the majority of the population of a Hive), who is tech-savvy, used to crowds, and has developed fast reflexes. It may not work well for tough underhivers, but that's what you've got the Volgite option for. My main gripe with Hive World stats is the disservice they do to high and mid level Hivers, who are presented as illiterate. In game mechanics terms you have a clear division between Imperial Worlder (educated) and Hive Worlder (tech-savvy). I would expect most mid and high level Hive-worlders to be literate and have a familiarity with the teachings and liturgy of the Imperial Cult. I'd like the option to switch the Initiative plus for literacy and some Common Lores for mid or high level Hivers. Otherwise we have to assume, in contrast to every illustration I've ever seen of the inside of Hives, that literacy in Hives is incredibly low and text is not a primary mode of communication in them.

underhiver should be a separate "homeworld" from hivers... and the Necromunda game is about underhivers.