Firing into Melee (especially Full & Semi auto and scatter weapons)

By Baldrick, in Dark Heresy Rules Questions

Are there any rules (scanned the rulebook and errata) other than the -20 penalty for firing into melee? Especially if you are using Full/Semi or scatter weapons)

A character in my game last night attempted it with an auto pistol on full auto! They rolled a 01 so there was no easy way I could say they had hit the party member who was also in the melee.

But if it happens again any guidance on how to handle this?

I was going to say that if he failed the to hit roll then the number of successes he fail by would be the number of hits against the other person (as per normal full/semi/scatter rules).

Any ideas?

Baldrick

The rules specifically leave this to the GM.

See page 196, top left corner.

Optional Rule: If you would have hit your target if it were not for the -20 penalty, you've hit the targets opponent instead.

In addition, GMs may rule that when shooting into melee with demi or full auto you must allocate at least one hit on the targets opponent.

Thanks Darth Smeg!

So scatter guns (and normal guns) are okay unless you fail the test by less than 20

I think I will use the following house rule.
(In addition to the fail by <20 rule) Semi & Auto fire into melee will cause the second bullet to hit the other target unless they make the roll by 2x your BS bonus for full auto & 3x your BS bonus for semi

e.g. BS of 40 you need to roll under 12 with semi fire to avoid hitting the other target with the 2nd bullet, under 8 with full auto fire to avoid hitting the target with the 2nd bullet

Of course if you only hit with 1 bullet then it will hit the target

Baldrick said:

I think I will use the following house rule.

Any comments on the house rule above?

They seem fine. Just watch out so you don't cause your players to do too much math. One or two small rules like these are useful, but too many just gets in the way.

I go about the whole shooting into melee a bit differently then described by the RAW. Since there is a 20% chance of hitting the guy you didn't want to hit, I decided that shooting into a melee combat would have no actual penalty to it. Instead, any damage dice that comes up the same as one of the to-hit dice hits the target that the shooter was not wanting to hit (2 numbers out of 10 = 20%). This plays a lot better with spraying full auto fire into melee then the RAW as, the more bullets you launch, the greater the chance of hitting the guy you don't want to.

Example:

If Psam the Psycho scum decides to turn and blaze away at close range with his auto-pistol at the ganger who's beating up on his adept buddy, he would have a +30 to do so (+10 close range, +20 full auto) as opposed to a +10 (+10 close range, +20 full auto, -20 shooting into melee). Psam's player rolls his to-hit dice for the attack and gets a 26, a hit with 3 bullets (the other three blow into a wall, a mother after passing through her child, and neon sign which then begins sparking and shooting sparks out in a most impressive manner). So, Psam's player now rolls three damage dice for the three bullets that hit what he was trying to hit and he gets a 0, 3, 6. That's a potential righteous furry and a 3 scored on the ganger. However, since he rolled a 2 and a 6 to hit, the 6 he rolled for damage will get applied to the adept he was trying not to hit, but he'll get over it... unless he doesn't.

All in all, it still seems to accomplish what the RAW was trying but with less math and a higher chance of "ah crap!" the more bullets are tossed out there.

IMHO Auto-Firing (semi or full) into melee is more than reckless.

Imagine a kicking and bucking autogun autofiring in your hands and the melee opponents wrangling with and circling each other.

You have absolutely NO control who is gonna hit by your bullets.

I would use the RAW for single shots (and aimed ones obviously) only.

My ruling would be that Bullets fired in Semi and Full-Auto have equal chances of hitting either party.

Massaker said:

IMHO Auto-Firing (semi or full) into melee is more than reckless.

Imagine a kicking and bucking autogun autofiring in your hands and the melee opponents wrangling with and circling each other.

You have absolutely NO control who is gonna hit by your bullets.

I would use the RAW for single shots (and aimed ones obviously) only.

My ruling would be that Bullets fired in Semi and Full-Auto have equal chances of hitting either party.

I could just as easily imagine a short burst fired from a good marksman with an autogun, at a target engaged in melee combat, dancing back an forth. He would of course have to time the shot just right, for example just as one of them recoils from an attack, in the split second (actually firing all 10 shots might take a full second, but that's just 1/5th of a round where the opponents exchange melee attacks.

Shooting semi auto would make the case even better, as a good marksman can have a small grouping (3 shots in 5 seconds is not particulary fast. Still the risk is there so I think the optional rule is fairly decent, and I also use the one were full-auto will also hit the friend, as long as enough bullets hit and the friend fails a dodge test.

The odd thing here is that it actually becomes LESS likely to hit the friendly guy in melee if you burst away on autofire .. you get a +20 bonus for full auto after all, which offsets the -20 for firing into melee. This is weird: squeezing off a single shot should be safer than just spraying the combatants with bullets. The danger of hitting the wrong one should increase dramatically on autofire!

My players are very understanding and accept my rulings (new group, surprisingly understading, lucky me)

If someone fires into a clusterfrak with a full or semi-auto weapon they stand a great chance of hitting others in the fight.
I have a very cinimatic approach to combat and often leave the rules where I find the lacking.

For example:
Callidia, a Moritat Assassin, is fighting a group of zombies that are slowly overwhelming here, Regis fires his Fury into the group full burst.
The Fury has a Full-Auto rate of 5, he scores 3 hits on the zombies, 1 hit strikes Callidia.

I told my players that shooting into a melee can be very dangerous, single shot and careful aiming decreases those risks.

Santiago said:

My players are very understanding and accept my rulings (new group, surprisingly understading, lucky me)

If someone fires into a clusterfrak with a full or semi-auto weapon they stand a great chance of hitting others in the fight.
I have a very cinimatic approach to combat and often leave the rules where I find the lacking.

For example:
Callidia, a Moritat Assassin, is fighting a group of zombies that are slowly overwhelming here, Regis fires his Fury into the group full burst.
The Fury has a Full-Auto rate of 5, he scores 3 hits on the zombies, 1 hit strikes Callidia.

I told my players that shooting into a melee can be very dangerous, single shot and careful aiming decreases those risks.

This is pretty much how the optional rule for firing into melee works. I would do the same.