Men and woman are commonly imagined to be much different from each other than they actually are, in my opinion.

If this were British Prime Minister Roleplay, people would be complaining that the male player wasn't roleplaying Margaret Thatcher sufficiently girly.

bogi_khaosa said:

I've had a lot of discussions on this topic with my husband since getting married. I actually do feel that men and women, generally, think differently. Some of the time, particularly when under stress. (And yes, I am deliberately ignoring the question of when and how they think differently, because that could easily turn into pages.)

However in roleplaying, no matter how into it you get, a lot of the stressors that make us revert to our more hardwired natures aren't there. Though we may try very hard to get into our character's heads and roleplay them three dimensionally, they don't have biological drives. We are never really (I hope) as deeply affected by traumatic events that happen to our characters as we would be the same event in real life.

In short, in roleplaying, we are doing our best to portray that the character is a three-dimensional person, but they're not real. Same thing with characters in a novel. And hopefully no one feels like a female author has never written believable male characters, or vice versa. It's not necessary to think like the opposite sex to portray them convincingly in a fictional setting. Because it's all still just fiction.

And wow... has this really digressed from the original topic.

I totally agree. It's as if people think that male authors should have books peopled entirely by male characters, and all of Agatha Christie's characters should have been women, Because no way could Agatha Christie write a male character plausibly.

Yeah, DH reminded me how much I love the 40K universe (as in joint with Star Wars - and I don't even know what third place would be), after years of bitterness against GW [having worked for them]. It's a fantastic playground: I'm trying to approach it from a more Matthew Stover angle.

For a Sororitas character, I'd assume that individuals that are attached to Inquisitors as Acolytes would have certain innate qualities to begin with(maybe especially the ones from non-Progenium backgrounds) and would be carefully schooled in what to expect before leaving the convent on their own.

There would ideally be an unquestionably pious and zealous (though subtle) Cleric in the team to accept moral responsibility for those 'dirty hands' situations where heretics must be allowed to go unpurged for a higher good, in the course of an investigation and he'd have more authority than her - it would actually be wrong to disobey him [great philosophical/ethical RP potential here!). She'd probably need reassuring that all names will be taken and all heretics scourged ... in the Emperor's own time! So once the investigation's over, she'll be given a flamer and the s**t list and she can purge her conscience - she just has to have the fortitude to be able to defer gratification (pretty much the definition of maturity).

He'll be her on the spot confessor, plus she should have others she can turn to when the spiritual crisis gets too much for her (a worldy-wise Famulous, say), plus she'll have plenty of time atoning in her downtime back at the convent and could also have easy access to the services of an Inquisitor-Priest, as mentioned on P. 282 of the Core Book ('The Emperor's Grace' paragraph).

I'd expect her to rack up Insanity Points quicker than most initially (but not Corruption Points) but it should plateau quickly and the GM should give her the ability to work them off fairly routinely. She should take Flagellation at the earliest opportunity.

I'd also give her fair intelligence and an ability to come to her own conclusions - informed by her faith/schooling: she shouldn't be a drone. Remember the bit in the first Grey Knights novel [i'll say no more for those who haven't read it...].

Just some thoughts I've come up with while struggling with this same problem ... oh yeah, and the only 'overpowered' thing I can see about them is that they get some incredibly good armour at creation (but expensive Sound Constitution and only a laspistol and club/flail/staff, plus loads of Skills that need to be bought if you want to be characterful - seems alright to me...).

EDIT: Re: male/female differences - in reality that left/right hemisphere dominance thing can make a big difference. But Aethel nailed it in that the differences can drop away in fiction: you're not unconsciously 'being' - you're consciously pretending to be, which leaves a nice gap for you....

Under the Determine Career Path table on p20 of Inquisitor's Handbook only Schola Progenium origins allow taking the Sororitas career path, which is more in line with the fluff from the Sisters of Battle GW 40k codex and the Witch Hunters Codex.

I realize that in the career path section it does offer the other options as you stated, fluff-wise they don't make any sense, given that every Sister is an orphan brought up by the Ecclesiarchy and wouldn't have the skills and backgrounds other than those represented in the Schola Progenium.

A Sororitas adepta is a Bride of the God-Emperor one and all, raised, indoctrinated and brainwashed from birth. Having the
talent True Faith is representative of this. No way is she going to fall in love with some NPC or PC. Her love is restricted to the God-Emperor alone.

As for role playing and gender, you need to look at typical gender roles and atypical gender roles. People who take on atypical gender roles like being a warrior typically have atypical behavior when it comes to gender expression, which comes down to less about gender and more about acting in an efficacious manner in one's selected role. A Chamber Militant Sororitas adepta will not be a flirt, girly, silly, coquettish or anything like. She is trained to be a holy warrior, serious and disciplined, professional. She need not be a Fanatic unless she takes talents with those traits, but she is a true believer who has been tempered by years of harsh training, discomfort and deprivation. The weak, unmotivated, unfocussed and unsure are weeded out.

As for other aspects of role playing, again you need not be Fanatic, there is some leeway. Most of the time you follow orders of the Inquisitor of the Holy Ordos appointed above you. In the absense of orders, you follow your training. If the orders given often violate what you have been trained is "right" it can be role-played that those above you have more wisdom and knowledge of what is right and not for you to question. Or you can absolutely know what is right, due to your training and what is contained in the Rule of the Sororitas. If it does not violate what you know via lore skills then you can give the Inquisitor the benefit of the doubt, although in your heart there is no doubt! If it ever is obvious then it could lead to some good role-playing opportunities and different interpretations and directions. You certainly don't need to roleplay theological debate, after all you know what is what and if someone believes differently they're wrong, ignorant or a heretic, but it's generally not up to you to correct them or lead them to the righteous path that's what the cleric is for. If they can't be brought to that path willingly and no hope remains that is when you come in. A las shot to the back of the head may end that heretic's blasphemy!

Funny thing is you seem to be unaware that most gender behavior is not governed by biology but by gender-specific behavioral conditioning that varies from culture to culture. Any person that is acting out of their gender role is less likely to behave with gender atypical behavior. So the interpretations that these males portrayed their female characters was probably exactly how they would act unless they role played them as a stereotype of their gender. People are not necessarily walking gonads and nothing else. Gender is made not born. Sex is born.

that should be "anyone acting out of their gender role is less likely to display gender typical behavior than those acting within their gender role (as assigned by society or one's culture)."

Sister... That was one hell of a rant.

I like it.

Sister Uriel said:

Wouldn't that depend on what age she was taken into the school?

bogi_khaosa said:

I would concur with that thought, Bogi. The Sisters aren't "trained from birth." They are; however, trained by the Progenium. Those deemed to be of suitable mind and body are chosen for the Sororitas. Also, I see no reason why a Sister would not have the capacity to fall in love with another. They are sworn to the Emporer, yes, but they are neither soul-bound nor chem gelded. As to how they might behave on those feelings is another matter entirely.

Interpretations may vary. All are free to their own.

At v22TTC, there is already a mechanic in place to remove Insanity Points... Combination of role-play and XP spends. 100 XP per IP bought off.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Fething forum software and bloody double posts.

-=Brother Praetus=-

@Sister Uriel

A Sororitas adepta is a Bride of the God-Emperor one and all, raised, indoctrinated and brainwashed from birth. Having the talent True Faith is representative of this. No way is she going to fall in love with some NPC or PC. Her love is restricted to the God-Emperor alone.

According to Cain's Last Stand, the Sororitas do not have vows of celibacy (or at least not all of them do).

@Bogi_Khaosa

I have never really understood why people think crossgender roleplaying is so difficult. You have no problem playing a cybernetic priest who worships a Machine God 40,000 years in the future, but you can't put yourself in the place of somebody with a different chromosomal makeup?

The difference is that few people know a cybernetic priest in person while at least some gamers already have made the acquaintance of a woman. Thus, the priest lacks comparability - you can only say "Hey, the way he plays that guy, I can totally imagine he's a cybernetic priest worshipping a Machine God 40000 years in the future" or "that's not the way I would play a cpwamg40kyitf" whereas you can easily compare a player playing a woman to actual women you know. It's just like other topics other players know well that you want to incorporate into the game - the first time your geology student shows you exactly why your carefully planned planetary disasters wouldn't work that way you'll know what I mean (though you can easily punish him by forcing him to watch The Core if you happen to be a little vindictive...).

Cifer said:

What? Are you saying that The Core was not 100% scientifically accurate?

Well, obviously noone is literally trained from birth, but from a very young age, where they are the most impressionable. The Schola is not for everyone who fits the entrance criteria, they couldn't possibly take all of them. The Sororitas is much similar and only accept the cream of the crop. It's not like joining the Army or the Marine Corps in time of war, they take just about anyone who meets a basic standard that the average citizen would meet and weeds them out through training. The Sororitas does the same thing, only its more selective as they only draw from a more restrictive pool and people without the basic skills that the Progenium offers probably won't make it or would even be accepted into training. So someone from the Feral, Noble or Imperial World backgrounds need not apply as they don't possess those basic skills.

But I certainly agree that within your own game you can run them anyway you want. I wouldn't take the statement from one novel and expand it to apply to most, obviously in a universe there may once in a great while exceptions made as to when someone is accepted into the Schola but someone who has already learned their basic life skills will probably not adjust well and absorb the amount of training and behavioral modification necessary to become a Sororitas, especially a noble that may be used to having her whims indulged.

As to cross gender roleplaying and using examples from real life, I would not apply the behavior of one or a few women you know and apply it to all the women in the universe of 40k or even of our world. Obviously, there are many ways to be and none of them wrong, just different. When comparing a Sororitas militant to Betty house wife or accountant with kids its like comparing apples and oranges. Compare the Sister to every professional career soldier that happens to be female and you'll probably find quite a difference to those you know (you'll probably not know one of the career soldiers unless they're in your family, you're a military brat/spouse or been in the military). You'll probably have to settle for a biography or an interview. I don't have to settle I have seen *one* during my military service that fit this bill, the others had different priorities that conflicted with a career in military service. That's just part of realism.

If you're less into realism and more into fantasy, you can do what ever you can imagine and shouldn't try to limit yourself to such constraints. Again do what ever makes you have the most enjoyment, it's your leisure time! But if you bag on other people based upon your limited experience, try not to because after all its their leisure time, too and their experiences may differ just like mine does from yours.

The Sisters do not have a vow of celibacy? As members of the Ecclesiarchy they most assuredly do, otherwise they would be just attached Imperial Guard legions that are devout and all-female. As for not being nuns, they really are the equivalent, but have worldy orders, militant orders and monastic orders. The Sisters are not a lay-order. Although not canon, I pretty much treat the Imperial Creed as a more extreme version of Hellfire and Damnation Christianity with the Crusading component to compare it to a real world activity. Having sex out of wedlock would definitely be a sin, and marriage for a sworn member of the Ecclesiarchy (which is redundant) would interfere with the focus necessary to be fully devoted to your faith, although in practice some/many aren't truly faithful but have doubts, temptation or merely use their position as a way to power of a sort. This is not how I represent the Sororitas and I don't think that the general canon of the 40k universe does either.

As for being Soul-Bound or Chem Geld, they're different in how they achieve similar effect, thus different names similar effects, probably slightly different mechanics. Sororitas aren't made into female eunuchs through chemicals or deep mind conditioning. BTW what is Soul-Bound? No as people they are not incapable of falling in love but I would think that if that love overtakes her love for the Emperor in importance of following her duties she would gain corruption points and at the point where she actually acts upon (more of an if...) she would no longer be able to access the True Faith abilities. If she got married or had kids, she will have broken her vows and no longer be a member of the Sororitas or the Ecclesiarchy.

As for having power armour, I don't think that is something that should be an everyday occurence unless they purchase/acquire it on their own. Being given the use of power armour should be reserved for Sororitas formations and missions except at higher levels. By the time a character reaches that level others will probably have access to purchasing the same as they will have developed black market contacts, munitorum contacts or whatever and will have amassed the fortunes necessary to pay for it.

Somethings are interpretation and some are not. I've really got to get off this thread, but I'm pretty much a bit fanatical about this subject in particular. Too bad I no longer have my copies of either the Sisters Codex or the Witch Hunters Codex for the 40k miniatures game to quote from directly, just memory however flawed. I used to have a massive all Sisters force about 4000 points but gave it and all my other 40k stuff away when I was in danger of becoming homeless. But that's another story. I've been on and off with the hobby since the original Rogue Trader hardcover.

Uriel, yep, most all of that is just your interpretation. There's nothing in the witch hunter codex covering a sisters desires outside of burning things and shouting litanies (which possibly happens at the same time). The codex covered what was needed to make an army and have it fight, not much more.

I can see the celibacy issue in regards to the sisters going either way, but I would say that I do, on the whole, see them as a celibate order. Not so much out of the Creed demanding such, but more because there's just no room in their lives for that whole sex / fall in love / family thing. Their vows to the Emperor would definitly get in the way of family rearing and their communal life devoted to His Name doesn't seem to leave a lot of time or opportunity to hunt up Mr. Right. The whole dating/sex thing dose take up an inordinate amount of time and energy. If something should happen while in the field, though, a one night stand wouldn't really be that bad... though the dynamics needed for someone like a sister to have a one night stand would be interesting to say the least.

The Sisters aren't Catholic nuns. After all, they are referred to as the "daughters of the Emperor" and not the "Brides of the Emperor" ;-) Granted, there is a slight bit of creepiness when you start really dwelling on the can't have sex due to being already married to Christ thing, not having sex do to ones obligations as a daughter would be even creepier...

On the Ecclesarchy, however, I don't think you can make any kind of blanket statement of celibacy. It is not the Catholic Church in space. As you stated, it is more akin to hell fire Christianity in space, of which there are many branches and many faiths. Just look at the puritans (who were not in any way shape or form Catholic). They were pretty big on the whole morality thing but their clergy were not only allowed to marry but expected to do so (though they nor anyone else of good and moral fiber could enjoy sex -they were to engage in it to reproduce, but it was a sin if they enjoyed it).

If you need a real world comparison, the Ecclesarchy is like Christianity only far more diverse and fractured (which is saying a lot, really). Sure, it has an over arching governing body comprised of various members from various branches, but they are always stepping on each others toes, calling each other a heretic and purging each other's churches left and right based on differing interpretations of the Creed.

In all of the different and accepted interpretations, it is not outside the realms of belief that one would endorse breeding and premarital sex (I don't even tink the institution of marrage is a constant in the Imperium... just look at the mentionings of communal nurseries in some hives which shows that the traditional ideas of family units aren't universal).

Either way, one branch of the Ecclesarchy could preach that mankind must dominate the galaxy. In order to do such, mankind must have warriors and lots of them. Therefor, it is the sacred duty of all members of humanity (but especially the strong perfect members or those who are truly devout for they will make good, strong, and devout children) to create as many children to carry on the Emperors wishes as is possible. One should couple with as many other strong perfect and devout humans as possible to produce those children! Oh, and don't fall in love, your only love should be to the Emperor. Don't enter into any marriage contracts, your only devotion is to the Emperor. And, most of all, don't enjoy your sacred duty to reproduce. It's a duty and must be carried with the utmost respect, dignity, and stoicism for only a degenerate would treat such a holy calling as supper happy funtime and they shall be burned for it!

In summation, I can see some branches of the Ecclesarchy being celibate while others are the exact opposite... and I can see those two extremes sharing a very bloody past where ever they meet. Don't fall into the trap of simply looking at the Imperium as the Holy Roman Empire in Space. It is so much more complex then that and the worship of the Emperor, while having parallels to Christianity, is still a separate animal with it's own unique coloration and habits.

The Sisters do not have a vow of celibacy? As members of the Ecclesiarchy they most assuredly do, otherwise they would be just attached Imperial Guard legions that are devout and all-female. As for not being nuns, they really are the equivalent, but have worldy orders, militant orders and monastic orders. The Sisters are not a lay-order. Although not canon, I pretty much treat the Imperial Creed as a more extreme version of Hellfire and Damnation Christianity with the Crusading component to compare it to a real world activity. Having sex out of wedlock would definitely be a sin, and marriage for a sworn member of the Ecclesiarchy (which is redundant) would interfere with the focus necessary to be fully devoted to your faith, although in practice some/many aren't truly faithful but have doubts, temptation or merely use their position as a way to power of a sort. This is not how I represent the Sororitas and I don't think that the general canon of the 40k universe does either.

The problem with that line of though is that the Imperial Ecclesiarchy is not the medieval christian church (despite obviously borrowing heavily on some portions). I dare you to find me a single instance of the mainstream church or the sisters being described as celibate - and no, Redemptionists with their "Your finger just twitched - that means you're an abominable heretic and must die!" credo don't count.

I can certainly imagine that many priests and sisters would consider their posts to be too important and not compatible with marriage, just like modern day singles with a good career standing (indeed, the Last Stand notes that so many sisters show no interest in partnership that most people don't know they'd be allowed to). However, that doesn't mean they're not allowed to marry, or, for that matter, have extramarital companions. There are two constants in the way the Imperium would interfere with personal relationships: The Emperor must come before anyone else regarding your loyalties and you shouldn't excess to the point of attracting the attention of Slaanesh. Everything else will probably be determined by the local customs of the world you come from.

BTW what is Soul-Bound?

It's the special psychic bond that binds astropaths to the Emperor so they can remain sane and unmutated despite regularly receiving and sending messages through the warp.

Even the medieval Christian church didn't introduce celibacy into relatively late into the period. For male clegy anyway... I'm guessing rules were different for nuns, since they are the equivalent of monks rather than priests.

Graver said:

This assumes that gender relations on whatever planet they live on parallel ours. If there are arranged marriages, if children are raised by the state rather than the parents, these problems drop away.

bogi_khaosa said:

True... to an extent. In my view on the Sisters, marriage is most definitly out. I don't see them allowing themselves to be tied up in a contractual obligation which may detract from their service and devotion to the Emperor. Beyond that, I'm not to certain how a contract for shared/consolidated resources with a Sister (and not her order) would benefit the other party. So, arranged... hook-up's would be more in line. Anything approaching a traditional marrage (even if it's arranged) doesn't seem like it would fit into a sisters life. Those things tend to take a lot of work, time, and effort even after they are established.

Child birthing, of course, isn't that big of an issue, though it would mean taking about 6 months out of the sisters life. I could see it happening and I could also see said child turned over to the nearest shola to be raised as the next generation of devoted Empra lovin' servants. No real issues there. The real issue would still be the sister finding the time to pursue romantic entanglements, arranged or not. i don't care how convenient they are, anything outside of a strait up business arrangement will still take a lot of time and energy and if such is not in the top ten priorities of someone, (sister or no) I just don't see them pursuing such.

Besides that, the Sisters are, despite what ever culture that birthed them, divorced of those cultures and ways through their education/brain washing in the schola and indoctrination into the sisterhood. Some, based on the amount of time they lived in the schola vs how much they can recall of their lives before it, may still hold to some old customs and ways but they are surely the exception and not the rule. Besides, in situations of arranged marriages, the contractual obligations are rather hefty and a sister's devotion to her order and the Emperor would supersede these obligations making such a contract highly unappealing to the other party involved.

I can easily imagine an Imperial world deciding it was a good idea to create some kind of "blessed lineage" by arranging, er, liasons (or just artificial insemination) between particularly revered Sisters and male members of the Ecclesiarchy. A sort of theologically inspired eugenics.

Vows of Celibacy are not the same as Vows of chastity.

Brother Praetus said:

Yep, but it's at GM's discretion - I was just suggesting that perhaps early on a Scholar Progenium novice out there in the big bad Imperium for the first time might accrue IPs at a perhaps x2 rate [as a game mechanic symbol] but should be allowed to lose them at a x2 rate too (given her strong will and faith) and by the expedient of an evening's self-flagellation, prayer and singing hymns rather than dropping out of the adventure for long periods of time. Kind of a heavy handed symbol, rather than a way of sending her mad and eating all her xp (which she really should be spending on Singer+10 and other characterful, non-combat skills - even if the player wants an uber-fighty Seraphim!).

Other points: I'd only give a Militant Power Armour - the other paths would wear carapace and mesh, I think. Think it would be cool to give a Famulous a compact bolt pistol and mono shortsword for if she finds herself isolated within a heretical noble's palace who's moving towards his endgame and she's the only means of stopping him (in addition to attempting to convince some of his troops to fight alongside her etc, of course).

Can't remember where I read it but for the elite fighters, the Imperium's big on sublimating other natural urges into violence, through denial and repression of those urges. I mean that's a common thing through history, but I actually read it about in this universe; I think actually in reference to the Sisters of Battle.

NeoSamurai said:

made an incomplete thought. the piety of the sisters can be tied to chastity as easily as it can to celibacy. celibacy emphasizes the warrior nun. chastity emphasizes the female knight.