I do not play nearly as much as i would like so maybe you hardcore players can try this and give some feed back.

The most frustrating thing about Talisman for some is random movement but if it is not random than the game does not work. I borrowed this concept from Pirate King and I offer it for your dissection.

Rather than roll and move the player chooses which space they wish to move to in the region they occupy and place a marker on it. The player then rolls 1d6 with the following results.

1: place your character 2 spaces from the target nearer to your current space.

2: place your character 1 space from the target nearer to your current space.

3-4: Place your character directly on the space you targeted.

5: place your character 1 space beyond the space you targeted.

6: place your character 2 spaces beyond the space you targeted.

This keeps movement random but gives you a greater (33%) chance of going where you want. It is more like the character knows where they want to go and how to get there but may make errors trying to get there.

It may be nessecary to limit the space chosen to a maximum of 4 from the character's current location in either direction, unless you don't mind characters zipping across the board each turn.

When crossing a space like the Sentinal it should not make a huge difference. The Troll's move or heal on a 6 should be the same. Amazon still gets to roll 2 dice.

What other movement based rules could it confuse?

A simpler way to approach controled movement would be by declaration. Certain expansions I've seen, or heard proposed, involved the concept of "destinations" for tasks or quests designated by an expansion card. Movement options are as per normal, but when a roll reaches or exceeds a destination, the character may stop short at the space. And so...

As an option, a player may declare a destination, which may be one or more potential rolls away; the further the distance, the greater the risk as follows. For the duration of that journey, the character forfeits the use of special abilities, spells, or encountering any other character as the price for a forced march. Optionally, it must still draw Adventure cards and encounter space instructions along the way but may not use any ability (including those of followers, objects, etc.) until after it has reached its declared "destination." This emulates a hard press to reach somewhere, forgoing any time for other pursuits... regardless of what happens to along the way by chance or otherwise.

Yes, such a character could become a target for others with far reaching abilities, but that's the price to be paid. So declarations are risk.

Personally, I don't care for it, but it is an option that keeps destination calls from becoming too potent. It keeps the use such to a minimum for the potential vulnerability it carries.

I am not a fan of this type of movement idea. It complicates the game a little too much for my liking on something which should be the easiest part of the game. What I was planning to do was create a card in my Night Fall expansion that allows unimpeded travel along the river, some kind of sea faring card along the lines of pirates, river traders or such like, I haven't thought of the details yet. So maybe the card would allow you to travel along the river without having encounters for a number of turns (I would probably say about three turns before you have to disembark the ship and encounter the space where it lands). You are still rolling one die with maybe a mechanic on the card that allows for fair winds (roll 2 dice) or shallows (choose how far you move up to the result rolled) . I was also thinking of a hot air ballon as a similiar but less powerful card that allows you to travel for 1 turn unimpeded by events or adventure cards. So I think the key to getting about quickly is to make use of special abilities, the horse, flying carpets and teleports. Traversing the board successfully is part of the fun and you shouldn't have too much control over that. I would say cards with some varied mechanics for getting about easier would be more the way to go and alot more fun and less complicated.

dfb

The problem with random sea or river travel (aside from the two not being the same in function and method) is that it is always based on a destination. Ships and boats do not simply wander; they have ports of call. They do not stop elsewhere unless in dire need of emergency supplies, or they are owned by foolish captains.

The random roll of land travel emulates that the land of Talisman is bigger than it appears and is not just squares in a line. The random roll can be seen as simulating taking different paths to destinations along the way and having to pass through different types of terrain. River and coastal travel had routes by definition of the land that limits them, so it is not same again. And for game purposes, few if any adventurers would opt for water travel for long (after the novelty wears off) if it doesn't offer an advantage over land travel's access to kills and freebies via the Adventure deck.

I setup one card in my expansion called the Landing after experimentation with river travel by dice roll (two dice vs one for a price). After a while, few people ever used it considering all the special ways to travel fast on land that are built in the game and its expansion. Wherever the Landing is drawn and placed (always in the outer region), for 1G it offers immediate transport to either of the nearest two outer corner spaces in either direction on the side of the board it is on. It's a certainty of destination for a price, and the boat doesn't stop anywhere it doesn't need to, because it wouldn't; there's no profit in it. It now gets used at least half a dozen times per game.

4ER's changes have supposedly had two claims behind them (mostly related to Fate): to speed up the game and to give players more control. In most case, both have failed. The new Horse is a good example, according to what I've heard others say about it. It used to be in 2e that you rolled 1d6 and could add up to 3 to it. Now its simply 2D6 in 4ER. Going farther isn't really going faster when it's utterly random; because you still don't get where you WANT to go any faster. My experience has taught me that randomness needs to be balanced with control in choice by players. Otherwise, they end up feeling like the game is playing them more than they are playing it.

Thats a very cool idea JC, I prefer that to my initial idea, makes a bit more sense. I was just exploring some ideas for using the river to get about, a Skeletal Ferryman type card fits in a bit nicer with the Night Fall theme though. Pay him 1 G to cross the river from wherever you draw the card. Good points on the control and I'll be bearing that in mind with what I do. I always liked the mechanic of "add up to # to the dice roll", like you said it adds a degree of control to the randomness.I did want a new horse along the lines of shadow fax, some kind of lord of the horses so I could do one with a movement of 1d6 up to +5.

dfb

Shadowfax sounds a bit too much for me; maybe too much control, and that's not really what Shadowfax did. I also prefer not to pull in any attributes from specific books, films, etc. into Talisman's intended "generic" high fantasy theme. It's also plagarism, by the way, if you intend to distribute that card. And it could be a copyright infringement as well if there are any games out there that use that term on a trademarked component. If you're going to do something like that, think of something more generic to call it... perhaps "Archon of Equines" or "Fay Stallion" or some such.

I've notions of a new series of cards (versus an actual expansion): 4ERR ... 4th Edition Revised "Retro" cards. I'll soon be looking at 2E, 3E, and 4E cards to compare to changes made in 4ER (once I get enough accurate info for all cards in all editions). I may (re)create some cards that had better control in the past, or combine the best features of multiply editions into a card formatted for 4ER. My own group has complained bitterly about the horse ... as read about (since we haven't actually bought any of the new commercial expansions). Perhaps we're just a bunch of old curmudgeons waxing too nostalgic, but hey, so what.

Don't know all that you have in mind for the Ferryman, but that may be a better step in the right direction. Of course what happens if you draw him while already in the Middle Region? He's kinda pointless if one can already run down the stairs through the Sentinel space. Perhaps he might offer two options for that 1G: cross the river (either direction) to the nearest space on the other side, or take you to the nearest corner of the Outer Region.

Obviously I used shadow fax as an example, tolkien enterprises own that, not that I'd think they d particularly care about its use in a free custom fan based game supplement. Your title Archon of the Equines sounds nice JC I like that. I think maybe there could be a condition to owning him or a roll required to trap him or gain the horses respect. It is a powerful ability having that degree of movement control, so maybe take it down to +3. It gives a shorter range compared to the regular horse, but is obviously still superior due to the control. I haven't thought much about the ferryman, but certainly would offer travel in either direction. The ferryman could even stay there and during any night fall round any character landing on his space could use him.. For a character in the middle region paying 1 g wouldn t be that attractive, so the added bonus of travelling to one of the corner spaces would be a nice addition.

dfb

Obviously I used shadow fax as an example, tolkien enterprises own that, not that I'd think they d particularly care about its use in a free custom fan based game supplement. Your title Archon of the Equines sounds nice JC I like that. I think maybe there could be a condition to owning him or a roll required to trap him or gain the horses respect. It is a powerful ability having that degree of movement control, so maybe take it down to +3. It gives a shorter range compared to the regular horse, but is obviously still superior due to the control. I haven't thought much about the ferryman, but certainly would offer travel in either direction. The ferryman could even stay there and during any night fall round any character landing on his space could use him.. For a character in the middle region paying 1 g wouldn t be that attractive, so the added bonus of travelling to one of the corner spaces would be a nice addition.

dfb

dogfacedboyuk1 said:

I'd make him only for GOOD or NEUTRAL adventurers as well... He'd never tolerate and Evil one. A roll against Craft would likely be best to see if he could be had. Or maybe he's even got his own Strength and Craft (something unique among Followers), thereby requiring a contest of both S and C to get his attention.

dogfacedboyuk1 said:

You could even have him move with the payee to whatever destination, then that becomes where he's found next by someone else.

I don't know about this, but I am looking for ways to spice up the movement.

Ideally, I'd like to see an alternative gameboard designed for Talisman with at least one or two forked paths in the Outer Region. It seems like such a simple solution to the issue of limited movement options. Consider for instance the length-wise side opposite the Sentinel and the Graveyard. It's quite a dull stretch of spaces: Hills, Plains and Woods. How hard would it be to split those spaces in half, and then have a forked path with a mountain trail or something. Doing so would add more movement options to the game board and make the first hour of the game (which is mostly limitted to the Outer Region) seem much less repetitive.

Perhaps the "mountain trail" would be 3 spaces long, with the two spaces on the left and right being difficult spaces (for instance, one could be draw two cards, while the other might potentially cause you to lose a turn etc.) But the middle space of the mountain path could offer great rewards... perhaps there is a monastery where you can gain knowledge or something.If I'd designed the Dungeon expansion, I would have just made the new board replace the inner and middle regions altogether, instead of adding a new side board (it's already hard enough to find a table that can handle the basic board.)

Thats pretty radical changing the game board itself and I d be interested in seeing what designs you come up and artwork to. There is a really cool Village game board expansion over on Talisman Island - if you havent already seen it head on over and check that out. The spaces themselves are not meant to be interesting they are there to take an adventure card! I think the balance between blank spaces and event specific spaces is fine. I m not sure multiple routes would add that much extra variation to the game really. You are probably better off doing a mountain trail expansion with a card based style. draw an adventure card to initiate the expansion deck, draw a number of cards to represent your journey through the trail and then you may choose a spot to emerge on, kind of like a more involved teleport card.It would allow you to design lots more ideas as well rather than be limited with a few spaces extra on your redesigned board. I'd still like to see a new board design just out of interest though.

I think dfb has something in the concept of cards... more on this in a moment.

An overlay could be designed to be placed on some area of the board (optionally) for creating new "routes." But I think in the end it would have two insurmountable problems... maybe three. First, the spaces are designed to hold one or more cards. They do that now, but would they if the spaces were cut in half on one side of the board? Not likely.

Second, it really isn't adding much that's new for the trade off. And most people playing Talisman are interesting in fast game of gimmees and simple kills. That's what the game is built upon... from the start, and little more with each new edition. I can only be bent so far in another direction before all one's effort for a homemade expansion becomes a waste of time... other than for one's own enjoyment.

I could see the possibility to add a hazardous path from one side of the board to the other in some way. Perhaps a one space overlay... or just a "Place" Adventure card to be drawn that has a space it is placed on. If you land there, you draw a cards as normal for encounter. The next turn, you would have the option to face a hazardouse path, challenge, roll of some kind to step to a designated space on the board's other side. Designing and implementing the hazard and challenge to do so (with a balance that it gets easier the more advance the adventurer is) would be the harder part to work out.

Enter the custom deck...

A simple deck of encounter cards could be put together. About 1/3 would state at the bottom that you've made it through after whatever else the card has you face. That way, on average, it would take about 1.5 turns to use the short cut. But the deck would have to be nasty for such an advantage, and still have something to gain along the way such as Enemies to kill (which to me is boring), Strength, Craft, Gold, Fate, Lives would be better... since its possible the adventurer might lose such along the way. And so on...

Another way to spice up movement (and one that I will use in Night Fall) would be to introduce portal cards. There would be say 4 or so in the deck and once two are in play they allow instant travel between them. "Ancient Waygate" or something will now be appearing in Night Fall! I want to limit the number of cards that are not with the theme of Night Fall, but I don't think the inclusion of a few adventure deck cards will go amiss.

dfb

The concept of teleport gates (aside from the standard one that appeared in a past commercial expansion) has seen a number of fan based variations. I would suggest packaging it as a micro expansion unto itself with a brief explanation of its mechanics. That way, it stands on its own and encourages use regardless of any other expansion or not.

People do tend to like this, and many more would take direct notice of it, as opposed to a set of cards that would only be discovered by chance in a larger expansion... one which has a theme that doesn't imply their presence.

If you need assistance with copyright free illustration for such, I may be able to help in this case.

That is a good idea, and to be honest i would prefer to put the ideas i do have for adventure cards together in a mini, not necessarily themed, expansion

Thanks for the offer to do some art JC, I will take you up on that actually. I am very much au fait wiih photoshop and painter, but I have little time for drawing at the moment due to my sculpting. I have just finished my warrior bust and am now moving on to another project and preparing ideas for the next Talisman character to get the bust treatment. I am tempted to do an elf at the moment. but I need to construct the armatur before I get too excited about what to do next. So offer gratefully accepted!! I will put together a few more expansion adventure cards as and when but it is going to be a case of write the ideas down as i have them but concentrate on Night Fall at the moment.

dfb

All right then, there are a number of different card mechanics to consider when doing gates or portals. Here's some options to consider. In varied combinations, quite a variety could be created.

Placement

1. On the space where drawn
2. On a designated other single space (Forest, Crags, Ruins, etc.)
3. On the nearest space of a certain type (Woods, Fields, Plains, etc.)
4. According to locations rolled by a card on the table (1:Cursed Glade, 2:Ruins, 3:Sentinel, etc.

Certain types of gates might be placed automatically on certain spaces, regardless of where they are first drawn. There's nothing that says the gate has to be place on the space where drawn, and perhaps all that occurs there is that awareness of the gate's existence elsewhere has been gained. Placing the gate in a space with textual instructions (especially if hazardous), can give players a reason to face that hazard for the gate's advantage. And in the case of table for placement (versus or in addition to a Destination table), there is a balance of random vs control of its placement by design as needed for a hidden purpose.

Encounter

If placed on a Draw Adventure space...

1. The gate does not count as a card against cards drawn here.
2. The gate does count as a card against cards drawn here.

There's a trade off to consider. In option 2, especially on a Draw 1 space, unless the gate leads immediately to somewhere desirable from the start, its often seen by shortsighted players as one more space lost where Adventure cards can be drawn. In option 1, it can be an extra card to keep track of on a space, should other cards draw there be beyond an adventurer's current ability to deal with. There's an upside and a downside either way, though in most cases option 1 will at least keep the gate from being blasted off the board with a spell. Also, in option 1, the space should be encountered and the gate can only be used the beginning of the adventurer's next turn.

Access

This is how easily the gate can found and or used. The more benefit it offers in destination, or the more destinations it can reach, the more difficult it should be to use. Otherwise, it just turns into a way to flout the standard challenges and difficulties of the game... like using downloaded cheats off the internet to hack a video game.

1. Automatic use
2. A roll against the adventurer's Craft, Strength or other to find and/or use the gate.
3. If on a space with a rolled encounter, make that roll without being "lost" etc. to use the gate
4. Payment in Gold, Fate, Spell, etc.

Destinations

Where the gate leads can be more than one option

1. Another gate of like kind (2 or more of the same card)
2. A space of type designated (Woods, Fields, Hills, etc.), the specific one to be chosen by the user
3. A specific singular space (Portal of Power, Sentinel, Oasis, etc.)
4. Multiple chosen or random rolled single space destinations.

For option 1...

1. Only two gates exist and destination is clear. Until the second gate appears, the first can't be used.
2. More than two gates exist (and for proper die rolls no more than 4). Until more than one appears, the first can't be used. If more than two appear....
   

1. Destination is by a random roll. 1-3 and 4-6 for two other gates. 1-2, 3-4, and 5-6 for three other gates.
2. User's choice.
3. User must roll against Craft, Strength or whatever to choose. Otherwise, random destination.

Terminology

Ignoring fanciful synonyms misused in fantasy games, terms for different general types of transport cards should imply by the different structure or ways in which they work. This is aside from additional adjectives. Terms like "gate," "portal", "doorway", "tunnel", "ingress", "egress", "archway" are all possible, and should be individually chosen for a specific combinations of options put into a card. If the transport point is something random but between multipe cards doing like wise, its part of magical network or transport; these might be called from only one card, it might be called a "node" or "obelisk" etc., since the destination wouldn't be seen (and hence no need for an opening to look through).

Obviously more commonly understood terms should be used. (Heaven forbid that we should challenge anyone's vocabulary. ) Other terms can be thought of as well, but need to be used meaningfully and by their innate defintion. Here's some suggestions (where one of the grouped terms should be chosen for use)....

Conduit, Portal, Gate: single card, with singular space as destination.

Locus, Hub, Axis: single card, multiple destinations by a space type. (Might not even be a gate to look through but an obelisks or other fixed object)

(As above or) Gate: single card, multiple single space destinations chosen, rolled randomly, or rolled if a challenge for choosing one fails. (I put "gate" here because that's how Talisman's one card works, though that's an incorrect term used by what it looks like instead of what it does. And as to the card, after a while very few players bother with it anymore. It was a space waster and of no real strategic or tactical use.)

Tunnel, Bridge, Arch, Archway: two cards connected to each other

Nexus, Junction, Node: more than two cards connected to each other

Examples

Verdant Axis: (borrowing from terms in my last expansion. Place this card in the Forest. Any who land here and are not "Lost" in rolling a die may attempt to activate the Axis. Roll 2D6 below your total Craft. If you succeed, you may teleport to any Woods space in the Outer or Middle Regions.

Adamantine Axis: Place this card in the Crags. Any who land here and are not "Lost" in rolling a die may attempt to use the Axis. Roll 2D6 below your total Strength to activate the Axis. If you succeed, you may teleport to any Hills space in the Outer or Middle Regions.

AND SO... I'll leave off hear for other thoughts