Argh! This forum's search is terrible!

Anyway, jerkfaces , I have a question about the Find Gate spell.

If you have an encounter that says "stay here next turn"(if you fail the check or just have to stay there) can you use find gate to leave the other world or are you still stuck in that particular zone of the other word?

PS-Not to imply I don't very much appreciate the help I've recieved in these forums!

Most people, including me, believe you can still use Find Gate since it doesn't require movement points and being delayed doesn't end the movement phase. However, it never really says in the rules so you can interpret it anyway you want.

Find Gate + White Ship gets really interesting too.

"Stay here next turn" is the same thing as "delayed," making the question, "can you cast Find Gate if you are delayed at the start of the movement phase."

I personally say no, but I don't believe the rules definitively support an answer either way.

But in case you're interested, I say "no" because if a gate opens on you you're delayed; and if you could cast Find Gate when delayed at the start of the Movement phase, then it would be possible to leave the Other World after having 0 encounters (say if a gate opened on you during Mythos), which doesn't seem right.

Tibs said:

There was a ruling/eratta that said delayed is the same thing as stay here next turn?

If so then I agree. Ty.

im sticking with "yes" as its need to be cast at movement phase and when your delayed you still has that phase (to stand marker) just 0 movement points, thus you can cast spell and find gates without encounters (its logical too you get into place cast spell get out of it). Also for abit more interesting play you can rule that after getting into other world due some card, monster ability effect you end your movement phase.

Same goes for moving throu gates, cant cast right away as you need to finish movement phase.

Like this atleast one encounter is assured

And yes delayed = stay here next turn (i think i seen in Q/A thread)

If your delayed can you still move using the police car? using the police car uses no movement points and being delayed grants you 0 movement points.

Yes, Kevin has verified that "stay here next turn" is identical to "delayed" because they changed the terminology during testing and didn't catch all of the instances.

"Lose your next turn," however, is different.

MrsGamura said:

I've always played no on this. I think what seperates it from find gate is that the Patrol Car is instead of normal movement, where, at least theoretically, find gate is in addition to normal movement. Typically, it would be kind of pointless to move to the 2nd area, then find gate, but nevertheless, this would be allowed if you wanted to for some reason, perhaps like using Call Friend to get a buddy into the 2nd area, then returning to arkham yourself via Find Gate.

So, as you might have guessed, I say thtat you can cast Find Gate when delayed, because you still get a movement *phase*, you just don't get any movement points. You come out of the gate you are in and remain Delayed on the location, taking all your movement points to then stand your marker back up. Basically, it's true that you come out of it scott free, but in that case, good on you for having Find Gate available.

For me it's a definite "yes", and MrsGamura already put my reasons into words.

Let me just add that going to the second area of an Other World, then cast Find Gate does make a lot of sense with the dreamer, as it will net you another clue token.

Someone just brought this up in another thread (could have been Mageith):

AH Manual, Page 16, Delayed Investigators : "Delayed investigators do not move during the Movement Phase... Instead...he should stand the investigator marker back up..."

So, honest question: what do people think that means? "Do not move normally during the Movement Phase", or simply "do not move"?

jgt7771 said:

do not move normally - its still movement phase just you have 0 movement points (that stand up marker lets easier identification that you cant move, else you could just forget you was delayed )

http://www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Find_Gate

Text of the card.

Movement: Cast and exhaust to immediately return to Arkham from an Other World.

You'd think this game was a tournament game where prizes where on the line instead of an entertaining experience you have in your own game room with friends or even alone.

Above is the text of the card.

These are my observations:

What exactly does the term "Movement:" mean on this card? We don't know. I doesn't say movement PHASE. It just says "movement" I could mean "in place of your movement", or it could mean during your "actual movement" or it could mean "during the movement phase". I suppose it could mean other things. We just don't know. It's not explained, as far as I know, in the rules. (If it is, please point it out because I must be looking in the wrong places".

I think the Find Gate card is unique in using movement while in the the Other phase. Only one kind of movement is ordinarily allowed there, depending in which area of the Other world the investigator is in.

It's only an assumption that this card adds an additional movement option. And probably not a very defensible one either. Spells take up time, are time dependent, and/or cast sanity. It would seem the safer assumption that it's cast instead of normal movement.

Another thing. I'm not sure movement is actually part of the movement phase. At least in the rules. I think there's an unofficial FAQ that might indicate differently. I think that's part of the confusion. In the actual rules and offical FAQS, combat comes after movment (phase?) is ended but before the next phase begins. It is an interruption of the phase order. It interrupts several phases.

mageith said:

combat is part of movement phase (also it forces you to end it after its resolved).

as about card text movement: i cant think anything else but phase, its the most logical. Keep in mind that designers must simplify cards text as much as possible, so there is no point trying to find some hidden meaning unless its pointed in rules. Also its just my opinion based on playing with MTG ccg

LithStud said:

combat is part of movement phase (also it forces you to end it after its resolved).

as about card text movement: i cant think anything else but phase, its the most logical. Keep in mind that designers must simplify cards text as much as possible, so there is no point trying to find some hidden meaning unless its pointed in rules. Also its just my opinion based on playing with MTG ccg

A rules quote would be nice. There may be one. I just can't find it.

As to most logical. Love up the word in "movement" in the rules and you'll say that the term "movement" without phase is much more common than the term "movement phase". And it can't be logical in this case because the results are not logical. Unless you really think the author of the game intended that players spend no time in the Other Worlds after facing a Nightgaunt.

I think we are ALL putting in a hidden meaning in the term "Movement:" That's what interpreation is. The hidden meaning you are putting in is "phase". If you look at many of the spell cards in Arkham Horror wiki, you'll see the author inserted the term "phase" after Movement: I guess that's what s/he thought too. www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Spell

When I used to be a rules lawyer, my favorite phrase was "You can only do what the rules tell you can." The problem with this card is that there are no rules, just a term. There's not even an example in the rulebook that I know of.

The Find Gate card has plenty of room for more explanation. www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Find_Gate

I won't comment on your experience with MTG. I'll tell you about mine. Suffice it to say I was one of the very first to play magic, had over 40,000 cards and had memorized every ruling, every reversal of rulings and the reversals of the reversals that plagued early magic. I think I still have a four digit membership card. I hope its more under control now.

Find Gate says "movement" in bold, exactly where every other card specifies which phase it is used in. We therefore can safely assume that this bold text specifies the phase that the card can be used in. There is only one phase that could be meant by "movement"

None of the spells ever say "movement phase"; they only have "movement" in bold. If you don't believe me, look at the actual cards, not at the text in the wiki.

Also, compare Find Gate to Patrol Wagon: www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Patrol_Wagon

Both say "movement" in bold; Patrol Wagon specifically says "instead of normal movement", while Find Gate doesn't. In my eyes, that means that Patrol Wagon replaces your movement, while Find Gate is in addition to it.

Compare it to Vision Quest: www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Vision_Quest

It also says "movement" without phase, but specifies that it has to be cast after ending your movement. How can you cast it after ending your movement if casting it replaces your movement?

Edit: I also just looked through my item decks; no other card ever says "phase" in the bold part, except for "any phase". They always say "Upkeep", "Arkham Encounters", "Movement", "Other World".

Following your reasoning, I would have to replace my normal movement with the two Movement Points gained from the Motorcycle. I could never read any tome, because reading them would replace my normal movement and so I couldn't have any movement points to read it. Those are clearly effects I can use in addition to my normal movement. Why should spells, and Find Gate in particular be different?

thank you morgain!! this thread is just silly!! how are so many people so confused by so simple of a thing?

pittplayer said:

Well please do explain how you handle this such a simple thing. Maybe examples to other rulings to support how you handle this.

Morgaln Says: Find Gate says "movement" in bold, exactly where every other card specifies which phase it is used in. Please name any card that does not name either a specific phase or "any phase" in exactly that place. We therefore can safely assume that this bold text specifies the phase that the card can be used in. There is only one phase that could be meant by "movement".

Mageith: OK: As I said before, I'm not convinced that combat is part of the Movement phase. I can't find a reference for that in the official rules.

Morgaln Says: None of the spells ever say "movement phase"; they only have "movement" in bold. If you don't believe me, look at the actual cards, not at the text in the wiki.

Mageith: LOL. I guess I wasn't clear. The author of the Wiki is the one that inserted "phase". I know what the cards show. That was part of my argument.

Morgaln Says: Also, compare Find Gate to Patrol Wagon: www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Patrol_Wagon Both say "movement" in bold; Patrol Wagon specifically says "instead of normal movement", while Find Gate doesn't. In my eyes, that means that Patrol Wagon replaces your movement, while Find Gate is in addition to it.

I'm not sure that's necessarily a logical conclusion. I think it's called a false dichotomy. Because something isn't one thing, it has to be the other. There are other options.

Morgaln Says: www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Vision_Quest It also says "movement" without phase, but specifies that it has to be cast after ending your movement. How can you cast it after ending your movement if casting it replaces your movement?

Those are good, logical responses to part of my argument, to be sure. Or it shows that "Movement:" has multiple meanings. but it doesn't show then what Movement: means without definition as in the case of the Find Gate Spell.

Mageith: All your arguments are dependent on combat being part of the Movement Phase. As I said before, I'm unable to find a reference for that in the official rules. Combat, IMO, is an interruption of 3 different phases.

At a different level, I'm pretty sure that FFG didn't intend that the Find Gate and Nightgaunt combo produce the results it apparently does. I'm just trying to find a rules justification for stopping it, rather than just making a house rule as others indicated they did. So unless, the Find Gate/Nightgaunt combo is airtight then I'd have to revert to the Harsher the better?

In your opinion, is the combo airtight?

I could have sworn in an FAQ it said that combat only occurs during the movement phase. I could be wrong.

Morgaln said:

Actually I don't think you are following my reasoning. If combat is not part of the movement phase, then Find Gate cannot be cast until the next Movement phase after combat with the Nightgaunt.

Right now, I think you are defending the proposition that if you combat a nightgaunt and it sends you to An Other World, then since it's still the movement phase you can cast Find Gate and return home immediately and since it's still movement still have the Arkham Encounters phase and close the gate? All I'm saying is that entering combat ends movement (and the Movement phase), so casting is impossible.

Then I asked the question whether "Movement:" without any definition could possibly mean "Instead of movement" rather than the assume "During the movement:"

Lord of Squirrels said:

It might be so. It's certainly the prevailing belief. I don't have anything but the rules and the FAQs included in those. A lot of unofficial FAQs have been lost I think.

Only during movement? We know combat occurs in other phases. Just not combat with monsters on the gameboard. It might be in reference to moving into a space during the arkham encounters phase and whether you have to engage the monster there. I think Kevin says no, even though the lastest official FAQ says yes. As I recall, he was asked again and said "no" again and that the FAQ will be updated. This was after Innsmouth was sent to the printers, so we'll see what comes out in a few days. I'm sure there will be some sort of FAQ in Innsmouth.

Morgaln Says: Also, compare Find Gate to Patrol Wagon: www.arkhamhorrorwiki.com/Patrol_Wagon Both say "movement" in bold; Patrol Wagon specifically says "instead of normal movement", while Find Gate doesn't. In my eyes, that means that Patrol Wagon replaces your movement, while Find Gate is in addition to it.

I'm not sure that's necessarily a logical conclusion. I think it's called a false dichotomy. Because something isn't one thing, it has to be the other. There are other options.

Which ones?

At a different level, I'm pretty sure that FFG didn't intend that the Find Gate and Nightgaunt combo produce the results it apparently does. I'm just trying to find a rules justification for stopping it, rather than just making a house rule as others indicated they did. So unless, the Find Gate/Nightgaunt combo is airtight then I'd have to revert to the Harsher the better?

In your opinion, is the combo airtight?

It is not up to me to speculate on the intentions of the designers, but no designer can foresee every interaction. But yes, I do think the combo is airtight.

You seem to be proud that you could remember all the M:tG rulings; in my about 15 years of playing various trading card games, I was often called upon to decide the ruling issues in our play group and in about 90%, a later ruling would support my decision. So I could not only remember rulings, I could anticipate them.

Mageith: All your arguments are dependent on combat being part of the Movement Phase. As I said before, I'm unable to find a reference for that in the official rules. Combat, IMO, is an interruption of 3 different phases.

Page 6 of the rules show "evading monsters" as a subheading of Arkham Movement. I would therefore interpret evading monsters, at least, as part of the movement phase. It also states the following on page 8:

"If the investigator fails to evade a monster, the monster
immediately deals its combat damage to him (see
“Combat” on page 14) and he immediately enters combat
with it."

and

"Once an investigator begins combat with a monster for
any reason, his movement is over."

So if I fail the evade check against the Nightgaunt, I am drawn through the gate immediately, before I enter combat with the monster. By the time I would enter combat with it, I am no longer there, I am in an Other World. Therefore I never entered combat with the monster and my movement is not over. Combat never enters the equation in that case. Also, I find it dubious that evading monsters would be part of the movement phase but not combat.

I for myself think that every combat is part of the phase it occurs in, whether it is the movement phase, on of the encounter phases or the mythos phase.

Also, the rules do not say that your movement phase is over; they state that movement is over after combat, which is just the distinction which you are making. Vision Quest specifically is proof that ending your movement does not prevent you from taking movement actions and does not end your movement phase. So even if combat is an interruption of movement and not part of it, your movement phase will continue afterwards, with the single difference that you can no longer spend movement points.

It seems like you answered before I edited my previous post; I apologize for that, I should have added it as a new post. However, it only broadens my argument to encompass all cards instead of only spells.

By the way, is the Arkham Horror Wiki official or is it written by fans? If it is fanmade, the text is not proof for the intentions of the designers and cannot be an argument for any side. Only the actual card text, rules and official answers can be considered in that case.

I hope I did not insult you; not being a native speaker I often run the risk of being unintentionally rude.

@ pittplayer: please don't call the discussion silly; if it was so simple, there would be no discussion.

mageith said:

But that's just what I tried to counter with my argument. If you think that "movement" means "instead of movement", we have to assume that it does so for every card that has bold "movement" as indicator. It can't mean "instead" in one case and " during" in another because there is no indicator whatsoever which one is meant in each case. You have to decide on one interpretation and stick to it for all instances, or the rules go right out the window. There are cards that make no sense and even don't work if "movement" means "instead of movement"; all tomes that require movement points for example.

However, there are cards with bold "movement" that specifically mention they replace normal movement (Patrol Wagon, White Ship); if bold "movement" already meant that the ability replaces movement, there would be no reason to add that sentence.

Also, if "movement" would mean "instead of movement", then what about other phases? Does "upkeep" mean "instead of upkeep"? Does that mean if I have a Blessing, I cannot refresh any cards or change my skill sliders because rolling for the Blessing replaces my upkeep phase? If it isn't "instead" in this case then why is "movement"? What about "any phase" cards?

I feel we have been around the barn twice now. You're using the same rules quotes to prove your point as I was using but saying they mean something different. You've overwhelmed me.

I still think its clear there is no statement in the official rules saying that combat is part of the movement phase. Neither is there a clear statement saying its an interruption of the movement phase.

I think its pretty clear that the term "movement" isn't used consistently. For example, you seem to imply that "movement ending" is not the same as your "movement phase ending", but Movement: on a small card does does mean "movement phase" even though its the same word. You appear to want to add phase in one place, but not the other. You may very well be right, but I think at this point its really an interpretation.

I think its clear that this issue is not clear. This question of how Find Gate works and interacts has come up bunches of time since I've been haunting these forums. I'm sure it will come up again--at least until FFG states definitvely what they mean--which they seem in no hurry to do.

I know I will not be suggesting this combo to anyone I'm playing with nor will I use it. Nor will I disallow it. I don't work that way in this game.

As to ancipating rulings in MTG, you must have come into the game later than I. As I alluded, there were dozens of rulings reversed and re-reversed, so I wonder if you count any of those in your anticipations? I'm only saying this because I think experiences in MTG rulings aren't going to carry over much into AH. After I played my first game of AH and was considering buying it, the turning point was the FAQ. It was full of common sense interpretations. (By common sense, I mean, of course, I agreed with them. ) MTG was using RAW (rules as written). I don't want to apply those standards to AH when the result is abusive, or at least what I think is abusive. And since AH is not a tournament game, nor a game that really makes much difference except to the players actually playing it, I delightfully don't have to.

Anyway, you've carried on a delightful debate and I appreciate it.

I think we can agree to disagree here, and that's an end to the debate I can accept wholeheartedly.

I agree that it won't be the last time this comes up and that it will never be resolved unless we get an official answer.

I also thank you for the debate; it's nice to have an argument based on reasons rather than having it deteriorating into insults. That's what I really like about this forum. I'm almost looking forward to crossing words with you again .