MarcoPulleaux said:

YAY SUZAKU!!!

well I've never been to any of these events but I can say that its just the way the cards are put together and agree that there will be blandness if you see the same things over an over and just get into a rut of gameplay. which is why, to me, it's fun to play with the random other characters such as Raphael and make him powerful and versatile.

knew_b33 said:

You're right, it's extremely fun to experiment with different characters. What's not fun is knowing you're disadvantaged from the start because of that fact.

I'm not usually, but bleh it's me... 'nough said

Answer the question, Shinji.

Simply based on the stats MP provided, I would say we might rate Chun Li as "God Tier."

The other characters (who have only appeared in 5 top 8's) would be "High Tier" (or "Top Tier") if you prefer.

David Sirlin, one of the multiplayer game balance gurus whose views I generally subscribe to, contends that High Tier is great. Ideally, all characters should be brought up to High Tier. God Tier is bad. Simply based on the statistics, you're doing yourself a disservice by not playing as Chun Li. If you play as Chun Li you will have a significantly better probability of winning.

Of course, as Shoe pointed out (and many of us have in the past), Diversity prevents accurate results. We could use Swiss results to approximate, but no one ever lists Top 8 Swiss (pre-cut), so we don't get that valuable data.

However, I believe Diversity highlights problem cards. If a character is showing up repeatedly despite Diversity (which generally encourages players to avoid overly popular characters), then that character is REALLY good.

I'd like to think that folks should be able to play around Chun Li somehow. I'd like to think that over the next month or so we'll see a shift as folks adjust. But I'm skeptical. And the only hard data we have to go on so far (big thanks to Marco for providing it) suggests Chun Li is in a league all her own. That being the case, she's probably too powerful.

Their are no tiers in UFS. This is not an arcade fighter where it stays stagnant from inception outwards. New content that changes each character unevenly is released every set. We should not have a mentality of "This character is better than 2, and 2 is better than 3..." What we should realise is that the game wants a rock paper sizzor system.

Chun LI has trouble with Akuma who has trouble with Zi Mei who has trouble with Chun li.

There are PLENTY of characters on the same level of chun li. The bigger problem the game has, if you want to look at it like that, is not a broken character here or thier, its the disparity of 6 HS characters versus 7Hsers and why that seems to be the magic threshold you need to pass.

You know what card stops Chunners cold?

Bitter Rivals..... o yeah people want it banned.

Seriously chunners is not ban worthy. IMO early game shes is a turn behind all of these situations some of you guys are coming up with.

If she goes second she can play her awesome ability, sure, but shes not throwing kill attacks at the opponent because she has no foundations/momentum

If she goes first the opponent can spam foundations and have less to fear when she does ready.

Is she good and one of the top tier characters? yes.....

Is she ban worthy? no..... (now if Leaping COmmando Kick were around.... lol)

MegaGeese said:

...at what point does a character become too good?

I already did, but eh, I'll restate...

A character becomes too good when either one of two things occur:

1) Their abilities get around already-established rules and game mechanics (and to me, Chun Li's R gets around the whole point of Reversals)

and/or

2) They have otherwise balanced abilities but are undercosted, the prime example being ***Donovan***

ANY ability in this game can become so overcosted it goes from "the most broken thing ever made" to "nobody will play it". Hell, look at Harrier Bee or Disciple of War.

Both have extremely amazing abilities. With Harrier Bee, whenever an attack is played, the opponent must discard 2 cards. Completely broken. However, it's a 5/2 no block, MID of 3 speed non-throw, and has mediocre symbols for what it does, and as such, the only time I think it'll ever see play is in Chaos *Hsien-Ko*, or in somebody splashing Tieh Lei off-symbol. Disciple of War arguably has the most powerful effect in the game (at least for a foundation), but because it costs 12 momentum, it will never EVER see play, even in legacy.

So like I said, ANY ability can be overcosted so that it doesn't matter, and what's more important, any ability can be costed properly.

Any handsize bigger than a 6 needs to be SEVERELY monitored when the character is created, and really, that handsize is important enough alone to disallow them from having THAT amazing of abilities. When it came to ***Donovan*** for example, there are certainly ways you could've tacked on both momentum costs, foundation costs, or perhaps even committing him as a cost. There's simply no excuse for such insane card pool clearage and draw power to be absolutely free. No excuse.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Have you ever played a CCG besides UFS before? LOL

Tagrineth said:

I sure have, and I quit them for various reasons, but I joined UFS in part because of its balance. Back in the day, my *Voldo* could compete with your **Ken** could compete with his *M. Bison* could compete with her ***Cervantes***

Nowadays though, it's like I can't even run *Yi-Shan* if I'm not spoiling him with draw support to make up for his 6 handsize.

knew_b33 said:

MegaGeese said:

It's a stupid question. It's like that "if everybody jumped off a bridge" nonsense.

If T. Hawk started to top, I'd say, "he's joined the ranks of Astrid".

It isn't WHO top 8s, it's WHY. Chun-Li has a completely unfair and debatably against-rules ability. Hanzo has access to a loop he otherwise wouldn't be able to execute IF THEY GAVE HIM A **** COST!

T. Hawk, on the other hand, breaks no rules, and has costed abilities. He does not have any loops, and I doubt he ever will.

Again, it's not who but why a character tops.

Plus, as I've mentioned, I'm extremely critical of character's effects. While the character NEEDS to be the most powerful of their support, you can't just go and give them a bunch of free abilities with amazing stats. That's simply inexcusable, unless of course those free abilities suck ever-loving balls.

MarcoPulleaux said:

No he dosent. He has 2 free enhances. He also has arguablly better handsize to vitality ratios than chun li.

Also you keep saying that Chun Li is making the tops at events because she breaks rules, but in reality there are plenty of characters who "break" rules on the same level that you seem to be ok with. Hell the rules even account for this with the golden rule itself, but I totally feel that saying she "Breaks rules" is a very grand take on what she does.

Have you considered the fact that chun li may be more prominent at events because shes easier than a lot of character to build. Most people already had thier full suite of spikes and what not, so running chunners isnt to bad a deck to assemble. What if Zhou Dayio turns out to be better than Chun Li (and I'm fairly certian she is infact amazing with her support), but you just dont know it yet cause not everyone has the stack of ultras needed to build her so they wont filed an incomplete deck?

Protoaddict said:

He has a First E, which is a cost in itself. Good luck getting it on your opponent's turn. His first ability is free, but it requires the presence of tokens, which can only be granted by either his First E or support. Of course, as I'd mentioned earlier, free abilities can be OK if they're next to garbage, which IMO, T Hawk's are.

Off the top of my head, I can't really think of anybody who cheats, more than I can think of characters who need costs. Chun Li's ability needs a cost, not just turning her sideways. Hell, A New Low has a cost, and we've seen how much that card's seen play out of Akuma .

Whoa whoa if we want to talk about breaking the rules no one better then promo Yun Seong. He broke the rules with all his abilities . First he is the only character who starts ready . Then his ability made so many things easy dropping down foundations like Gaki reusing all your resources and cheating resource chains. All those combined still what did he end up being medicore he still only one 1 coastal championship . So in the end just because a character does something unique doesn't make them broken.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Why would he have trouble playing a first E on his opponent turn anymore than any turn?

His second ability doesnt require tokens, it's made better with them.

So replace T. Hawk in this equation with Elena who has 2 free abilities and 1 situationally free ability. If she started winning events on chun lis scale would it be the same discussion?

Scubadude said:

Um, yeah, and I wanted him BANNED!

Protoaddict you're clearly not getting the point, and/or you aren't reading what I say.

It isn't WHO, but WHY.

There's a reason T Hawk and Elena aren't topping events people. They simply don't have the abilities necessary to do so. While Elena's aggressive game is pretty fiesty, and works extremely well with help from her plethora of Fire/Good brethren (Temujin, Blanka, Kazuki, Mignon, Talim, Hilde, etc), it's just not reliable enough. I think our game has moved away from the turn 1 build turn 2 smash face phase it used to be in, which honestly, I liked that phase.

Again, it isn't who, but why. Elena doesn't have access to super lame loops, she doesn't cheat rules, and, ONCE

A

GAIN...

...her free Es aren't nearly on the scale of free abilities such as Donovan or Hanzo, or cheap abilities such as Herr, Olexa, Akuma or Zi Mei.

First E = first E *you* play, Shinji, not the first E played of the attack.

And that's still not answering the question.

If T. Hawk were to make t8 at the next ten regionals, and won a handful of them, would you say that he's "too good"?

I'm not asking for your opinion of him. I want your answer to that question. And ONLY that question.

MegaGeese said:

Um, wrong. First E is the first enhance taken, not the first enhance you play.

Now...I haven't read the new rules. If the new rulebook changed it so that you're right and I'm wrong

then Akuma can just as easily go, because that's absolute bull. First E was supposed to be the first enhance taken. To change it pretty much gets rid of the whole point

Wow...I'm kinda too pissed to even respond, if you're right about this...

...

but anyways, if T. Hawk were to make top 8, all I'd say is, "Well, he's better than I thought", and leave it at that. Your hypotheticals are made of fail because they haven't and won't happen. If you look at my results, you'll see every so often some one-timers top events (Terry, Balrog, even Rera), because those characters have the potential to do so. T Hawk does not, and I'd really appreciate you guys bringing up hypotheticals that MIGHT happen.

Now, let's say you replace T. Hawk with Balrog, somebody who has top 8'd, and in my opinion, could do so again.

If Balrog were to keep top 8ing? I'd just say, "I imagined he would; he's a beastin character". Neither of his abilities are free, and his holy crap amazing R requires some proper building. Not to mention, he's a 6 hander, and besides Seong Mi-Na and recently Astrid, UFS is pretty much a 7 hander's game.

Please, start paying attention to the words I keep repeating like a broken record. T Hawk, Elena, Balrog...none of them have abilities that truly BREAK the game quite like Donovan or Herr, who have cheap or free abilities that work on a massive scale.

If Donovan's R only cleared one card as opposed to three, and his draw was once per turn, well then yeah, that'd be fine. But to clear 3 cards, and then be able to draw out of his assumedly small handsize (due to him playing 3 cards), not to mention he's a 7/20, that's just stupid.

Not picking on you MegaGeese, but it just appears as if nobody's reading the words I'm typing, and are instead just yelling

T HAWK T HAWK LOL T HAWK!

I'll do you guys a favor:

Sum-up

1) It isn't WHO top 8s, it's WHY that I'm concerned
2) Free abilities mean nothing if they suck (ex. T Hawk, Elena)
3) An ability's power should be balanced by its cost (ex. Disciple of War)
4) Abilities that break the rules in a way that is TOO advantageous too the user and TOO disadvantageous to the opponent are not only unfair, but uncounterable (*Yun-Seong*'s committing of momentum was fine. Chun-Li's R is not)
5) There's nothing wrong with a character who consistently top 8s. There is something wrong, however, when they're doing so because of a loop (ex. HanzoKick), or when their abilities have effects on a massive scale with a cost of a beginner's scale (free or virtually costless).

Didn't ask for a semantic argument. A yes or no. That's it. Your answer is apparently "no", which is contradictory to your nature.

And it's always been that way. First E has *always* functioned in that fashion, ever since the concept was introduced.

Edit: If Donovan were a Good/Life/Void character, you wouldn't be complaining about him at all, and you know it.

Second edit: Give me a little more credit. My skin's a lot thicker than that. I just want you to answer my question without giving any semantical argument or reasons for said opinion. Just a yes or no. I'm going to keep harping on it until I get it, btw.

MegaGeese said:

I apologize if it appears I'm being rude to you, or rude in general, but I HAVE answered your question multiple times, and at this point, I'm not sure what you want from me. So I'll attempt to answer it AGAIN

1. I'm gonna need proof on that First E bologna, because I've always been told it meant first enhance TAKEN, not the first enhance YOU make. If you're right, Akuma becomes busted and Terry becomes usable lol.

2. I would still be complaining, because Donovan would still be topping events. His abilities are simply too good, and if you really, really disbelieve me, then how about a crazy hypothetical challenge. I'll build a Donovan deck AS IF he had those resource symbols, and I'll show you just how strong abilties can render symbols pointless.

3. Are you asking for a yes or no and that's it?

Well that makes life a lot easier.

If T Hawk continually top 8'd, would I complain he's too good?

Answer: No.

the whole first E thing has always referred to YOUR first E.

Example, someone attacks you, they E with something, you can then first E.

Been this way at least a year. I think 4-ev-er

^ Correct. It has always been "the first Enhance that you play during the current Enhance step". Always.

And thank you.

First anything has ALWAYS been first you play. There have been a ton of rules Q and As on this since it came out and its always resolved to first ability you play.

Promo Lord Raptor. Has 2 amazing abilities. One absolutley "breaks" the rules very much in the same vein as Chun Li or Herr in that he takes away the random from the game which was designed to be random. Yet I don't see him on any top 10 lists. 7HS and competitive symbols. Why not complain about him? He has the ability to control a players hand unless they put themselves in a bad position for no cost.

2.9.2.5 Played abilities designated as “First E:” must be the first Enhance played by that player during the current Enhance Step. (See 8.3.1 The Enhance Step.)
2.9.2.5.1 If you have played or activated another Enhance before the First Enhance then you may no longer play the ability preceded by “First”.