When I am busy nerding it up with my fan-created cards, I always make sure that the character is good enough to appeal to anybody, whereas the support will vary from deck to deck. However, I still make sure that, while the character might be amazing, their abilities STILL must be regulated, and to try not to give them abilities that are otherwise neutral, but are unfortunately made broken by other enablers (for example, I wouldn't give a character an amazing ability that only required 1 momentum if they shared symbols with Lord of the Makai, because then the cost effectively becomes costless).

So, reading through some recent posts I got inspired to do a reserch project. I decided to try to find as many regionals reports as of recent to attempt to either illustrate a point, or to ask a question:

At what point does a character stop being, "Wow, this character is pretty good" to being, "OK, ban this crap, it's hurting the game and is annoying and disuading new players."

So, here is the long list, and feel free to skip to the end if you feel necessary.

Green Bay Regional Results (according to TummyEden)

Top 4

Chun-Li
Alex
Astrid
John Herr

Winner: Chun-Li

Gulf Coast Championship (according to MegaGeese)

Top 8

Alex
Ibuki
Kyoshiro
Sogetsu
Donovan
Chun-Li
Hanzo
Seong Mi-Na

Winner: Donovan

Maryland Regional Results (according to Shaneth)

Top 8

Chun-Li
Hanzo
Gill
Andrew Olexa
Akuma
Ibuki
Mignon
Morrigan

Winner: Hanzo

SCC Results (according to Scubadude)

Top 8

Hanzo
Sakura
Seong Mi-Na
Tira
Astaroth
Zi Mei
Ibuki
Blanka

Winner: Ibuki

California Regional (according to Rockstar)

Top 8

Hilde
John Herr
Zi Mei
Andrew Olexa
Seong Mi-Na
Terry
Astrid
Nagase

Winner: John Herr

Path of the Master results (according to Icarus Rising)

Top 8

Seong Mi-Na
Rock Howard
Hilde
Zi Mei
John Herr
Chun-Li
Mignon
Tira

Winner: John Herr

Winnipeg Regional (according to iceman01)

Top 8

Alex
Felicia
Dhalsim
Chun-Li
Blanka
Karen
Zhao Daiyu
Rera

Winner: Alex

Rochester, NY Regional (according to Deck don’t matter)

Top 8

Alex
Zi Mei
Donovan
Chun-Li
Morrigan
Temujin
Tira
Nagase

Winner: Chun-Li

NOVA Regional Results (according to Umigame)

Top 8

Seong Mi-Na
Victor
Hanzo
Andrew Olexa
Galford
Hugo
Chun-Li
Leona

Winner: Andrew Olexa

SEC Results (according to NJBrock22)

Top 8

Donovan
Fio
Chun-Li
Hanzo
Nagase
Alex
Leona
Zangief

Winner: Chun-Li

Montreal Regional Results (according to Homme Chapeau)

Gill
J. Talbain
Chun-Li
Juni
Akuma
Victor
Andrew Olexa
Balrog

Winner: Gill

Southern Ontario Regional Results (according to sir_shajir)

Top 8

Akuma
Zi Mei
Felicia
J. Talbain
Chun-Li
Remy
Andrew Olexa
Sakura

Winner: Akuma

Here is an easier chart to help:

*this chart shows how many times a character has been in the top 8 of the aforementioned regionals*

Characters who have placed in the top 8 1 time:

Astaroth, Rock Howard, Dhalsim, Karen, Zhao Daiyu, Rera, Temujin, Galford, Hugo, Fio, Zangief, Juni, Balrog, Remy, Terry, Sogetsu, Kyoshiro

Characters who have placed in the top 8 2 times:

Astrid, Gill (W), Mignon, Morrigan, Sakura, Blanka, Hilde, Felicia, Victor, Leona, J. Talbain

Characters who have placed in the top 8 3 times:

John Herr (WW), Akuma (W), Tira, Nagase, Donovan (W), Ibuki (W)

Characters who have placed in the top 8 5 times:

Alex (W), Hanzo (W), Seong Mi-Na, Andrew Olexa (W), Zi Mei

Character who has placed in the top 8 10 times (or more):

Chun-Li (WWW)

So, I have some commentary:

Those in the top 8 1 and 2 brackets are the truth underdogs of this game, and obviously, the list is open to anybody else who tops. It's proof that SOME characters can rise up (although naturally, it depends on their competition, and other such factors). Personally, I have no true complains about anybody in those brackets other than the obvious "abilities shouldn't be SO costless" (ex. Ibuki, Donovan, Nagase, should have more cost to them IMO)

If you're in the 3, 4 and up bracket, then your character will likely ALWAYS be in those succeeding brackets.

I'm starting to lose love for characters such as Zi Mei, Hanzo, Akuma, and world champs Herr and Olexa. All 5 have either free or generally "costless" abilities that lead to ABSOLUTELY game-changing scenarios, and really, "game-changing" and "free" shouldn't be used in the same sentence. While none of them are, "as soon as I hit the table, I win" characeters, you are almost ALWAYS going to be faced with an extraordinarily difficulty and often up-hill battle caused by either the NPE haxery of Akuma/Olexa, or the almost free cheatery of Zi Mei's choice commit, Hanzo's card pool clear and Kick shenanigans, and Herr's Evil rigs of doom. While none of them are particularly ban-worthy, all of them could easily be reviewed for errata.

Ban Chun-Li. Bet you all saw that one coming. Oftentimes, cards get the banhammer or the unreleased hammer because their abilities get around a card game mechanic, which generally alters the favor of the game to the player in such a way the opponent cannot react. ***J. Talbain*** was banned in part due to the fact that a player could play foundations without even making control checks, leading to consistant turn 1 kills. **Donovan** was never released due to his doubling of progressive difficulty (and his immense aggro potential). Reversals are fair in this game because you must either block in order to play one (and hope you don't get Inhuman'd/BR'd in the process), or you must take damage from an unblocked attack (Healer, Carouser, etc). With Chun-Li, you take the best of promo Chun-Li/Elena, and mix it with the ability to play attacks, regardless of whether or not they are Reversals.

That's cheatery on an exponential scale. She can not just build at somewhat a quicker level (especially when you consider her concordance with something like British Subject), but she can also attack with ANYTHING in her hand during the opponent's turn, regardless of circumstances.

I realize fanboys have always wanted a competitive Chun-Li, but this was a bias our game doesn't need. Just because the fans want an amazing fanfav doesn't mean you go and pack them with abilities that are unrivaled that way Li is.

ANYWAYS

those are my thoughts. Yours?

I think that the players who worked very hard to top 8 at the GCC feel a little annoyed.

There's no denying that anybody to place well at an event deserves recognition, especially in a (hypothetical) field where they are against people using the same character.

Still, the title of the article is the crux of the issue. How good can a character's abilities before before you go, "OK, whoa, that's just TOO good."

Like I'd mentioned, abilities shouldn't cheat established rules. Really, the only attacks that should be played on the opponent's turn should be Reversals, and they should've been played by some cost-demanding strategy, not just, "LOL YOUR CARD POOL HAS 2 CARDS IN IT! DIEZZZZZ!"

You're missing the point.

Alex, Ibuki, Chun-Li, Seong-Mina, Hanzo, and Donovan all made top 8 at that regional, thus throwing off your results.

Not to mention Sogetsu and Kyoshiro.

MegaGeese said:

...it doesn't throw off the results at all. It just means, OK, all 6 of those characters placed highly, and are added into newer brackets.

But my opinions on them wouldn't change a bit. Oh, and btw, that makes Chun-Li's 10th regional top 8.

Ok Shinji I personally get your point but I have to say this

Alex: he's All's poster child and has nasty drawing power so that's good but promo Rock Howard's got him beat

Ibuki: yeah and no-one saw this one coming

Chun-Li: all depends on who the opponent's using if she kills like that

Seong-Mina:just stop her and her looping support

Hanzo I,m glad that he top 8'ed

Donovan: he's hard but again if you have a character that has better draw power then he loses BIGTIME.

but that's just me oh and about the Zi-Mei statement you out of all people know it takes hard work to win with her like that off of any symbol due to the fact of her low vit.

Quite frankly, I think this is a bit of a narrow minded argument.

You've listed more than 25 characters who have top 8'd at Regionals and singled out those who have been there more than others. At the end of the day, Chun-Li, Hanzo, Alex etc are all extremely potent characters who are slightly more powerful than other characters (or much more when you compare them to say Revenant or Rikuo), but it is impossible to have a perfectly balanced game. I've never played a Street Fighter game where Sagat wasn't the best character in it, God knows how many Yu-Gi-Oh decks play either Judgement Dragon or Dark Armed Dragon in their decks, it's a simple matter of course.

But as I said, you've listed a lot of characters who've done well in tournaments, and other people have listed more. In case you hadn't noticed, thats an awful lot of different characters that do well in tournaments, and whats to stop them from winning? If you don't like Chun-Li winning tournaments, metagame against her, it's not as difficult as one might think. A well placed Pommel Smash, Tag Along, Psycho Style, BRT or other things puts her in her place. The same goes for Hanzo, Donovan, Alex, Seong Mi-Na and all the other characters claimed to be 'too good'. I just think it's silly to complain about one of the biggest fundamentals of the game.

Could you please factor in these things to your analysis, as I feel they are relevant:

There are 170 character cards (according to 2HD) currently legal in UFS.

Of them quite a few have multiple versions, which means for diversity sake the number of selectable characters is substantially less (maybe like 50% less, cant do the math right now.)

So of the characters you posted that topped at regional, what % of diversifiable character does it represent? IE: if theres 170 character in the game, but only 80 unique names shared between them, and 20 different characters have made top 8, dosent that mean that 25% of all playable characters are tourney worthy, so on and so forth.

I think well all let it go to our heads that some of the available characters in this game were never meant to be competitive, but instead to do something cute for the casual gamer. Hugo and Hutzil for example, i cant imagine the designers ever made them so that they would win events. They made them because they wanted to give a 4 hand size option to players for thoes players who want to play something offbeat of goofy. And if they do well with them, so be it.

I think with another set on the way and the last wave of characters starting to get attention (Tira, Zhou, and Angol are all very scary prospects right now) you may really start to see a different spread at the top very soon.

Protoaddict said:

If you don't want something to be competitive, don't release it.

Viewtiful_Joe said:

Street Fighter Alpha 2

Anyways...well, I can't say I didn't already see this coming.

Here's what this thread is about:

The title is the main issue. If you had a choice to either read the title or read the information in the thread, I'd say read the title.

I used regionals as somewhat of an example to express when a character becomes "too good", with my only true issue being Chun-Li.

While most would obviously say, "Of course she performed well; she's an amazing character!", my question is, "is she TOO good?"

Like I already said, OBVIOUSLY the characters to consistantly do well (Hanzo, Alex, Olexa, Donovan, etc etc) are good, hence why they placed well time and time again. I don't need to be pointed out WHY

I'm simply asking,

"At what point does a character become too good?" Because at one point of another, all of the banned characters were likely considerd "balanced".

I wanna say that Talbain or Cassy would be my barometer for broken.

Both change the very nature of the game with (at the time at least) no answers or answers that were substantially more costly than the problem, often answers that were countered by the same ability for once again less than the cost. These were characters who broke the fundamental rules of the game for the most part. I dont particularly think that Ibuki was "Broken" per se, but rather she was very much the perfect storm of things. At the time she had evil and access to higher caliber and addies, Suzie-Q, Chain Throw, absurd and so on. Her abilities were very strong on thier own and her stats were outrageous, but she was less Broken and more Out of wack with everything else. If ever character was as well supported and stated as Ibuki in the game she would have been fine, but if every character was on the same level of talbain or cassy then the whole game would have died already.

That being said I dont think chun-li falls into this category. Her cards cost of commital is counterable by other effects that commit characters (hope for ones people for instance) or baitable (blowing useless forms like owlface to force them to play with a clear card pool.) Other top tier characters such as akuma or olexa can simpily use thier abilities to stop her on thier turn with minimal or no cost (checking a 4+ for instance.)

For what it's worth I've beaten many a chun li deck by eating a spike to the face, going to 1 life, and then smashing them with whatever I want because they cant block or play anything else because they have an unclearable spike in thier pool.

Characters banned:

***Zasalamel***: Literally has access to his entire deck during his turn. No, really. Tutor, tutor, tutor. If he fails to set up his win by the 2nd or 3rd turn at the latest, you're doing it wrong. The only thing that stops him is Tag Along.

***Dhalsim***: Completely free response that screws with one of the most important stats on every character. You know how there are entire threads that discuss the viability of 6 hand size characters? He turns 7 hand size characters to 6 hand size, without even needing to do so himself. When combined with further hand size reduction (specifically, Emptiness + Sole Survivor) he makes himself progressively more impossible to take down, and just the simple act of playing a foundation is going to refill a large portion of his vitality.

**Cassandra**: Reusable response that prevents her opponent from setting up and can also easily prevent her opponent from blocking, too. Banned after her ability was combined with newly released CC Hax cards (Dark Hado) resulting in her winning a huge tournament (Canadian Central Championships) 9-0 in matches, without losing a single game.

***Hugo***: Literally has access to his entire deck every turn, and unlike Zas it doesn't cost him foundations or mill him. He ALSO screws with your extremely vital hand size statistic, though. In other words, he's Zas + Dhalsim.

**Ibuki**: Free response that isn't really gamebreaking on its own, but when combined with Red Lotus, makes her staging area almost totally impervious to any effects. Ibuki R readies Lotus, Lotus R cancels your ability. Answers to her ability - aka commit abilities - are auto-stopped by R->Lotus, with the only solution, again, being Tag Along. The least deserving of a ban on this list, but like Fred says, at the time it was a sort of perfect storm of stuff that made her simply too powerful for that format, but I think her perfect synergy with Red Lotus is still overpowered.

***J.Talbain***: Breaks the fundamental act of playing foundations by not doing so himself. He circumvents the basis of nearly every other deck in existence.

If you think Chun-Li is on the level of any of those five, you're an idiot. She doesn't break the game, she just has a very clever and fast gimmick. If anything I'd compare her the most to **Nakoruru**, since Naks also cuts out one of your cards, every turn, basically at no cost. She wasn't considered banworthy, and she had one more hand size. And this was before we ever saw Red Lotus.

Also, as a note, Cassandra wasn't banned because she did well at a tournament - in fact, the only character that was banned because of tournament results was **Ibuki** - so pointing out that Chun-Li has won more regionals than any other character this season is totally moot.

Tagrineth said:

My argument on Chunners is as such

For all intents and purposes, the only time an attack is played during the opponent's turn is because it has the word Reversal printed on it. Most Reversals require a block to be played first. Either that, or there are such effects as Healer and Carouser, and then the oddball of Drifter (which skillfully creates reversals).

Chun-Li does not care about any of that, and quite frankly, makes it look unappealing by comparison. Putting aside her cute "I can play a foundation/asset on your turn" part, she can also do the game-winning, "now that you've played 2 cards in your card pool, making it improbable you will pass a Tag Along, I'm going to play an attack, namely ones that have Multiple, and they more than likely won't be blocked, and either I win, or your turn is done."

Also, the game changes (obviously). While **Ibuki** HAD access to not just Higher Calibur BUT ALSO Addes Syndicate, she would nowadays have access to neither, and quite frankly, I wouldn't think she'd be as broken (and IIRC, she never really saw play until Set 8 anyways).

Sometimes cards aren't banned for their sheer power but rather because nobody wants to play against them. Putting Contemplation aside, who the Hell wants to play against Happy Holidays or Revitalize? Sure, the two of them don't necessarily WIN the game, but boy do they slow it the Hell down. Like I said, sometimes it isn't the game-winner itself, but the enabler of that victory, which tends to be NPE.

A player shouldn't be playing a game with a turn of, "I play a foundation, pass. I play a foundation, pass..."

OBJECTION!

Super duper I play stuff on your turn at no cost GOOOOOOOOOOO

You'd fail a Tag Along after two cards?

what

How does Akuma and Olexa not have costs ?

Akuma has a check of 4 so check a 3 you have use up resources. For his E one red lotus stops him cold . Not to mention no one has done anything with him besides a regional which had 10 people since worlds.

Olexa both abilities have costs needing a momentum to hack so olexa can't do a turn one hack like Dhyou and Akuma. Not to mention his momentum gain isnt't free like LOTM. I fail to see how any characters currently need the ban hammer . I am on the fence with chun li but basically having her around makes people think twice of not putting pressure on her and playing the long game.

Doesn't diversity itself make judging this kind of thing all but impossible? Without diversity even more people would play certain characters. Also, any one tournaments results are going to make it look like there are eight different characters 'good enough' to top eight because diversity forces them to. And, no, you can't argue that a particular event created a top eight without diversifying people out and others in, because without diversity people would play different decks altogether.

UFS has never been able to accurately guage the power level of anything for a variety of reasons which include (but are probably not limited to): ultra-rarity requires more boxes bought to attain playsets than most people can afford, low game population leading demand being higher than supply which strangles the singles market and players ability to trade, and especially diversity.

If you want to know exactly how powerful cards are, start running events without diversity and allow proxies. It's the only way to accurately judge power level. Exclusive promos, ultra-rares, and few places online to buy singles really hamper players abilities to build the decks they want, while diversity makes them make different choices for their character.

Tagrineth said:

7 difficulty requires a 7 =/

"Akuma has a check of 4 so check a 3 you have use up resources. For his E one red lotus stops him cold . Not to mention no one has done anything with him besides a regional which had 10 people since worlds.

Olexa both abilities have costs needing a momentum to hack so olexa can't do a turn one hack like Dhyou and Akuma. Not to mention his momentum gain isnt't free like LOTM. I fail to see how any characters currently need the ban hammer . I am on the fence with chun li but basically having her around makes people think twice of not putting pressure on her and playing the long game."

In Akuma, statistics state you will check a 4 (or greater) most of the time. Even if you do check a three, you're only committing 1 foundation to create a hax equal to or greater than Bitter Rivals. That's a small investment for something so absolutely game-breaking.

Olexa's abilities do have costs, sure. But once again, the ratio of cost to effect is simply too small. Not only does he generate his own momentum, but as you so interestingly mentioned, he happens to share TWO symbols with LOTM, if he wanted to use it.

Also, you must've misread my article and just used my ban-happy persona to fill your statements, because I never said Akuma and Olexa deserve the banhammer, rather, I COULD SEE WHY they might use the errata hammer.

Not that they will, since Horvath and Hata are just so confident in the current game.

I'm personally not high on complaining about characters that have yet to consistently do massive damage in our enviroment.

When we have a situation like we did last year with 2dot Ibuki, I'll start running my mouth,

HolyDragonCloud said:

If a character is banned after winning the Canadian Nationals this year I will be bitching very very very hard.

I finally feel it neccessary to toss my two cents in here on the fail boards.

UFS has this syndrome evidently. I agree with alot of points being tossed about. Something I would like to interject is the fact of most bannings of major characters / cards come AFTER major events. This urks me.

Back on topic. Does chun li need a ban / errata? My opinion yes. She breaks game mechanics simply by turning sideways on something thats always in play. Presently theres One reusable answer to her. And thats inhuman, and it cost a card from your hand, but its also a foundation thats suseptable to a host of other cards. And even then its a dead sideways card going into your opponents turn.

Other characters were banned for whatever reasons, those reason are from a different time and place than this discussion.

Personally I HATE the fact that attacks can be played on the opponents turn regardless of what they do. That IS game breaking / breaking standard game rules.

I'd place a personal wager that the present chun li would beat the pants off banned cassie in a heart beat.

Note: On the regional list, Shoe nailed it. Diversity wont ever really show just how powerfull a character is. But also something interesting to note, how many of those decks actually sandbagged into chun li? How many chun lis were diversified and your numbers for her would propably double.

Nfxon said:

Triple.

My thoughts are...Gee, another 'Ban Card X' discussion, after we've been asked to stop those. How many times have we been asked to stop those? I'm sure Chun Li is WELL discussed with the designers, and I very much doubt anything you bring up is going to be something they havent considered.

It's easily arguable that both :::Tira::: and :Nakoruru: are as powerful as Chun-Li. Just as Evil made Tira very good, Air makes Chun-Li just as good.

If you need to start looking at things due to Chun-Li, start looking at Air's support. Lord of the Makai in particular would be my #2 card on any watch list after Olcadan's Mentoring. Take out the free momentum generation and it'll slow things down dramatically. Calming the Mind is good stuff, folks.

If you go to a major tournament like Can Nats this weekend, just make sure your deck can stand up to Air's Ira/Spike, Evil's Wall + Midnight Breaker, and Order's Card Draw/Commit, and you'll do fine.

Tagrineth said:

Can't argue about the other offenders in your list. However, 3.Hugo wasn't even on the map until Fortune and Glory was released. That card has since gone the way of Legacy, and so Hugo - in our current Standard Format - isn't nearly as much of a beast as he used to be. Truly it was Hugo combined with FnG that broke the his Character.

3.Hugo is still a beast, all said and done, and would be terrifying in Legacy, methinks. But, i just don't see it in Standard...

MarcoPulleaux said:

Just to help out your horrible memory.

1st: John Herr

2nd: Hilde

3rd: Promo Zi Mei

4th: Andre Olexa

5th: Seong Mi Na

6th: 3.Terry

7th: Astrid

8th: Frogase

Hope this helps out some...