Ok I'm also a new player and to be honest I'm kinda annoyed about all this talk about ban this or ban that. I read these forums actively so I can understand everyones mentality about whats cards need banning. BUT I see that the characters that consistently top 8 or win or being giving the we dont want you anymore treatment. Obviously the other characters have been around longer and have been able to be fine and get themselves established to dominate or consisently do well as they have because they have had time. Rock Howard, Tira,HildeAstrid and Astaroth just came out and there already getting up there in such a short amount of time. So I'm certain once more ideas occur those characters will be in the tops more often amongst other characters whose potential just may not have been found yet. The reason why it annoys me that there are complaints about these characters consistenly winning is the fact that there DIFFERENT CHRACTERS WINNING, its not the same characters 10 tournaments in a row.

Example: Yugioh, if you've played yugioh you have heard of yata garasu a monster that pretty much stops you from drawing. By himself no threat but with hand control practically unstoppable. Then the chaos monsters came out and yata got better and they banned him (SMART MOVE) but the chaos monsters are still broken beyond belief and one by one by one they all got banned.Now those cards I mentioned were the top 8 of every tournament and if you somehow top 8ed with something original it wasn't completely the fact that your deck is teched out and awesome, its that you got lucky VS SYSTEM:A game that I loved but due to ude sucking the game got cancelled which is why im playing this game now (but this game is growing on me severely). Now with yugioh I was trying to make a point about truly needed bannings. With vs its about diversity in the big tournament which was called the pro circuit one of a couple of these type of tournaments, over 70% of the deck were the same type of deck and pretty much the same build. Now when UFS has to deal with something like that then complain but right now you may not like it but the game is definitely diverse.

Archimedes said:

Archimedes said:

Hi, my name's Evil. For over two years now, I've constantly been granted access to extraordinarily versatile and cheap (in difficulty) cards that are appropriate for over 85% of games. My attack line-up has always been the cream of the crop, and I've always had access to a plethora of top tier characters who are so good that their symbols don't even really matter. Even though the creators have continually tried to dumb my power down by releasing cards SPECIFICALLY to counter me (anti-discard, Siegfried's support, etc etc), my power was still so universal and so cheap in difficulty that I've always managed to stay in the top tier and never falter.

Hi, my name's Life. I've been on the backburner of this game for an extremely long time, with only a few moments to shine (such as **Mai** and possible *Ibuki* builds). While today I've finally gained some amazing anti-meta methods (Prominent Noblewoman, Tough Outer Shell, Calming the Mind), my lack of cheap, and more importantly universal cards has seen to it that I remain in the absolute bottom. While a lot of my "counter" cards do their job, countering, they often lack secondary usable abilities, which means that, should my opponent not use the abilities in which I was designed to counter, my counters just rot there, while I'm wishing I was using a second symbol. Sure, I've got some pretty sweet tools in The Gorgeous Team and Revenant's Calling, and some cool attacks in Menuett Dance and Raging Gnome, but it's too bad all of those cards have both different and BETTER symbols, effectively making my existence close to nothing.

I think people understand there are usable counters. Torn Hero, Undercover Agent, Calming the Mind, these are all USABLE cards that are capable of seeing play because of that fact. However, as I've said since anti-discard came out two years ago, counters need to have secondary effects, OR, be like Torn Hero, in which they disuade you from playing your ability for absolute fear of being ruined.

All of that doesn't make a card less broken. For your **Ibuki**, I say Tag Along. For your Happy Holidays, I say KFT. No list of counters takes a card that is too powerful and too NPE and makes it less powerful or less NPE, especially if it so happened to be backed by Addes Syndicate >_>

I strongly believe you will find life becomming more than the sum of its parts in a very short time.

As for evil, you can say the same stuff you did about life cards sharing symbols as you can with most of the evil support we have right now. For the most part every single evil card in the game right now has Fire, Chaos, or Death, and quite franktly some are better played on thoes symbols for their symbol specific abilities. I dont think you can honestly tell me that thoes 3 symbols do not bring something to the table that evil cannot.

Fire has more and better speed and damage pump and better difficulty / control foundations. Also fire has Ispin.
Chaos has safer hand strip (in shoving it to momentum). Chaos has Defender loop (and the pieces there in which are all strong on their own)
Death has some of the absolute strongest control pieces in the game like inhuman perception.

Im not saying any of them are better per se, jsut to the point that just because your cards share symbols dosent mean they cant compete with other symbols on the cards. Life got some absolutley amazing stuff this go, and I really do think it will be comming into its own any time now.

The only cards I honestly think need any attention are Forethought, Chester's Backing, Lord of the Makai, and Olcadan's Mentoring.

Forethought just needs the can't-end-turn clause, LotM could gain a commit cost, and Mentoring+Chesters get Unique. There, problems solved.

Tagrineth said:

*raises hand* Just out of curiosity...

...is Forethought + Anti K' still played? As in, how many decks as of recent have been playing such tactics?

MarcoPulleaux said:

I've seen quite a few. Additonally both of thoes foudnations are 1/5 with blocks, so just having them as very useful spam is not a bad idea. Granted i guess someone running hades will punch you in the face, but other than that....

MarcoPulleaux said:

Ryan Riley basically sealed game 3 of the SCC Finals because he double Anti K'd J's first card - a Bitter Rivals - ending his turn.

MegaGeese said:

It's going to be more or less contingent on how this field at worlds pans out. If it's around or larger than the 100+ we had last year, I'll probably give it another go. If there's a significant drop-off, it's not going to prove favorable to me.

And that phrasing there...i think our rematch will require epic music. And one problem-I no longer have the 6hs donovan. =/.

And by the way, all this talk about how much Evil has won in the past. You simply cannot...no...rather...I DEMAND that no one compare the Evil of Block 2/Worlds 08 to the Evil of Block 1/Worlds 06 and 07. It was much different, and much more beatable in the past.

And speaking of Ibuki, wasn't Ryan running his Chaos/Evil version he always ran in the past, or did he go with a straight-up evil version this time around?

HolyDragonCloud said:

You should have read the SCC report HDC lol . But ya it was a evil chaos ibuki deck .

Tagrineth said:

No no, I meant including Forethought. I KNOW Anti K still sees play; Evil card has Evil. I meant Forethought. I haven't heard of that card since it came out.

You need to play more often, forethought is one of order's hottest cards and it's been winning in canada and mid-west and north eastern US for a while now... for someone who acts like they know so much, you seem to have missed a huge card.

I wish I could fit Forethought into every deck I make. That's how highly I think of the card.

My last though on this topic:

This game would be great(er) if people would stop complaining about EVERYTHING under the sun.

I'm out.

sir_shajir said:

Agreed, every good order that I have seen lately is running Forethought. It not only makes your opponent play differently early game, but also cant be used to lock the opponent out mid-late game after some Ira Spintas/Spiral Arrow.

mattkohls said:

Your post has an extra t.

MegaGeese said:

Your meta is not my meta is not this guy's meta.

sir_shajir said:

Just because I have logic doesn't mean I get briefed on each and every decklist to top 8 dood.

MarcoPulleaux said:

I think the game is already great...Sure I have problems with lots of cards. The Owl, BR, and Feline Spike being the biggest. But I do not believe any of these cards should be banned. Simple errata's would be fine(expcet for maybe olcadon's...that one can just go...plz xD). Make Spike's E: Felicia Only and maybe the Reveral or Stun her only as well. I don't think the Multiple should take a hit as I think that those elements should have spike as a kill option but elements with Anti multiple should be able to work against it.

Bitter...Just makes me sad. I know there are counters(though pretty lame ones really wish the 2 big anti discard actions in Set 12 had been givin breaker/desperation =/).

dshaffer said:

In a thread like this, though, it is on-topic =D

Like I've said to others, if you don't enjoy reading something, don't respond.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Yes, Ryan's deck ran Forethought as well.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Yeah, and what you people seem to be forgetting is that

OH MY GOD BAN THESE CARDS

THESE CARDS NEED BANNING

THIS CARD IS OVERPOWERED IT MIGHT NEED TO BE BANNED

ERRATA THESE CARDS NOW

FFG PLZ ERRATA/BAN THESE CARDS

kinds of discussions - aka this thread, for example - are technically against the forum rules, though unfortunately nobody can stop you whiny punks from bitching at every chance you get at the moment so... yeah, yay lack of moderation.

Tagrineth said:

Actually, they are not. They were against our older forum's rules, and Steve has made a request they not be made, but I just looked at Forum usage/rules, and nowhere is it listed "no banned talk."

In fact, I found something very interesting that IS in the forum's rules:

"4. Treat everyone (users or not) with respect, while still being able to disagree with their ideas."

I'll agree that a thread that didn't logically turn into a ban talk thread is a bad one, but really, it isn't fair that people cannot have a difference in opinion without being badmouthed for having one.

Not everything is going to be all thumbs up all the time. We all know what cards come out, what they do, etc, so to those of you who feel it necessary to compile a list of counters, stop; we know what cards exist to counter.

Whether our views be educated or radical and unguided, they're still opinions, and while it's ok to disagree, the amount of, "DOOD STFU FOR TALKING BOUT BANHAMMA WTF?!" is getting a little irritating.

As I've said repeatedly, if you don't like what you read, you can either ignore it, or report it to a mod (because as I discovered, this forum DOES have mods). Of course, no moderator is going to delete bantalk, unless it was like, profanity-laden or something.

Agree to disagree, but sandbagging, namecalling, or otherwise insulting for either difference in opinion, or frequency of bringing up a topic is really inappropriate.

Homme Chapeau said:

whoops, yeah I meant "can be used to lock" not cant

mattkohls said:

Yeah I was wondering why Forethought couldn't lock mid game with all the anti-gray Order has. Personally, in Chaos Blanka, I just stack 'em high enough so that mid game my opponent only has 2-3 foundations, but... yeah.

I need to rebuild that deck and try to not have a sucky foundation base. Most likely going to have to use Inner Turmoil/Flying Edge... bleh.

MarcoPulleaux said:

Same to you, smart guy.