This past weekend we ran into a disagreement about whether or not flying figures are affected by scything blades.

I argued since nothing in the description of scything blades excludes flying figures from having to roll a surge, that a razorwing would have to roll for it. Also, acrobat explicitly states that scything blades cannot be "somersaulted" over, so I don't see flying (at least in a dungeon) being able to ignore it.

My buddy claimed that since flying figures ignore obstacles, that this would include scything blades as something they may ignore. We couldn't find anything in the rules, GLOAQ, or Faq that specifically addressed it (I'm not saying it isn't there, btw...just that we couldn't find it).

I was on the side of the heroes and he was on the side of the OL, so you can see how either side might benefit. He did say he would keep this ruling for Zyla or someone with the wings/carried by air, but that still didn't settle right for me. We did acknowledge our acrobat is not immune, but that is right on the card. Thoughts? I like it when razorwings bleed, so...

I would vote that flying creatures / Zyla are immune to it.

I wouldn't think creatures with Fly would be affected by Sctything Blades, but I could be wrong. My thoughts:

1) The description of the Fly says it treats obstacles (which once the blades are out they are an obstacle as far as I know) as if they weren't there. So for flying monsters the blades don't even exist.

2) Fly also says that "A flying figure may end its turn in a space containing an obstacle that inflicts damage without effect." I would take that to mean that the monster could even stop its movement on the blades and not take damage.

Big Remy said:

+1. Feanor, from where do you get it that Acrobat cannot avoid the Blades? The rules say they cannot be jumped (by anybody), not that an Acrobat can´t pass them.

The acrobat card says something about 'props' such as scything blades and boulders, meaning acrobats can't pass through them. If I recall, as my cards are downstairs at the moment.

'Tis true._________________________

Big Remy said:

The WoD rulebook has a section titled "New Props," which contains two subsections titled "Obstacles" and "Traps." This implies that anything listed in the "Traps" section (scything blades, dart fields, and rolling boulders) are not considered obstacles, and thus that Acrobat and Fly would not help with them.

Additionally, rolling boulders say that they are treated as walls for purposes of movement, so if you decide that the "traps" also count as "obstacles," you have a contradiction, since you would have an obstacle (meaning that figures with Fly can move through it) that blocks movement as if it were a wall (which can't be passed with Fly).

Antistone said:

Why would you have a contradiction when rolling boulders specifically say they should be treated as wall for the purposes of movement, and scything blades don't say anything like that?

After re-reading the rules and comparing the different rulebooks, I have to revise my opinion.

There is no indication that Blades and Darts are obstacles and can thus be avoided by Acrobat or Fly.

Big Remy said:

Because you have two exceptions of incomparable specificity and no rule governing their intersection.

A rolling boulder is treated as a wall for purposes of movement. That's a rule that applies to only one prop, but to all movement modes.

A figure with Fly can move through obstacles as if they weren't there. That's a rule that applies to only one type of movement, but to all obstacles.

Obviously, Fly allows movement through rubble, and boulders block ordinary movement. But it's not clear if Fly can ignore the special movement rules of rolling boulders because they're obstacles or if rolling boulders block flight as if they were walls because flight is a form of movement. Neither rule references the other, and there is no clear way to say that one rule should win due to being more specific.

There's a similar issue with the Precision skill.

On the other hand, if (as I suggest) rolling boulders are not obstacles, then there's no problem.

Or the fact that you can't move through walls. If the boulder is to be treated as a wall for the purposes of movement then you can't Fly past it.

I think this discussion has helped me resolve a few things about scything blades and both their interaction with fly and with trapmaster.

The word I was missing was prop. Scything blades (outside perhaps of the treachery card which I don't feel like debating right now) are not a trap card, so they don't benefit from trapmaster. However, they are not an obstacle either. They are a trap prop. The scything blades prop represents a scything blades trap on the dungeon floor. Hence, like all other traps, it cannot be avoided by special abilities such as fly and acrobat. You might know it's there, but if you walk, flip or fly through it, you're gonna have a 2/3 chance of getting cut.

Boulders are also traps, so you can't flip or fly past them either (they pretty much take up the whole dungeon from floor to ceiling, as opposed to some rubble which is just too high to shoot/see over). All that other stuff you see like pits, rubble, water, or all that stuff you never see like mud, lava, fog, etc. is just an obstacle. A figure that can fly or is especially acrobatic, can jump/flip/fly right over and around that stuff. You can't fly over dart fields and such that reach to the ceiling. You just have to walk through and hope you get lucky...or in the case of boulders..hope there's a pit to hide in.

Boulders and blades are not obstacles - as posted back in January ( http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=4&efcid=1&efidt=42922 ), WOD's version of the acrobat skill reads:

"You may move through enemy figures. In addition, you may enter and move through obstacles (but not other props, such as scything blades or boulders) without effect. You may not end your movement or make an attack from a space occupied by another figure or an obstacle that blocks movement."

Prior to RTL, all props are either obstacles, traps, or "other props". The RTL and TOI ruleboooks unfortunately do not divide props by type. There is a list of props by type in the linked thread.

"Props" to Haslo

Big Remy said:

This is kind of moot since Wibble has found an official quote that specifically indicates boulders are not obstacles, but look at it this way:

Fly doesn't say that you can't move through walls; walls don't say that you can't move through them even if you can fly. Walls just block movement. Rubble also doesn't mention fly, and it also just blocks movement. But Fly says that it allows you to ignore obstacles and doesn't say you can ignore walls, so you treat walls the same as before, but you change the way you interact with obstacles. If you had some hypothetical ability that let you walk through walls, then having fly as well wouldn't prevent you from doing it; there are no rules at all governing the interaction of walls and the fly ability.

If rolling boulders counted as obstacles for purposes of movement, then the rules for Fly would allow you to move through them. Fly doesn't say "unless the obstacles count as walls," and rolling boulders don't say "...even for figures with Fly." If the rolling boulder counts as both an obstacle and a wall, then it can be bypassed by anything that lets you ignore obstacles OR walls, unless there's a rule that says otherwise.

You could also read that as meaning that the boulder counts as a wall instead of counting as an obstacle, and then you couldn't Fly through it. It's ambiguous. Though considering that that sentence actually says it counts as a wall "for purposes of blocking line of sight, attacks, and movement," if you interpret that as meaning that it is not considered an obstacle for any of those purposes, I'm not sure that there is any purpose left for which it would be considered an obstacle. Maybe for purposes of playing Crushing Blocks next to it.

Antistone said:

+1 and + Wibble

this is basically the ruling the rules provide: Traps cannot be overcome with Acrobat/Flying.

the FAQ disagrees, but that specific disagreeing answer can go die in a fire until it manages to be correct about something .

Thundercles said:

So do you feel that a flying character is vulnerable to a pit trap? I haven't in the past, but if they are supposed to fall in them, I'll happily make them do so.

Veinman said:

Uh, anyone feel free to correct me on this, but it's been my impression that the Spiked Pit card works on Flying creatures (heroes). After the card is played, they can ignore the pit to their heart's content. Pits are an obstacle, and fliers ignore them.

I think there are ways for heroes to ignore the Spiked Pit trap card using a skill, but Flying and Acrobat are not that way.

It can be explained for acrobat, and I don't think heroes could get fly before Zyla came along. Thankfully, heroes cannot have soar...yet.

Granted, logic and this game's rules have little in common, but I always figured it would be pointless to open a pit beneath a hero whose feet aren't even on the ground.

Thundercles said:

Let me be clear. This is pretty much the reason why I feel that Flying figures should be able to bypass existing scything blades/dart field traps. Naturally they should not be able to bypass them if the actual trap card was played on them. Once that Spiked Pit trap card is played, the pit is then treated as a normal pit which is an obstacle . I know most will disagree with me, which is fine as I guess I'll just call this a house rule for Flying creatures and be done with it.

@ Big Remy: Why? The blades and the darts may come out of the floor and/or the walls and/or the ceiling. Why should hovering in the air be an advantage against such a threat? A pit is clearly fixed to the floor. and can be flown over.

And since Flying creatures are affected by pit trap cards (there is no rule indicating otherwise), we have to assume that they don´t fly all the time, just when it seems necessary.

Parathion said:

With all due respect, and I do mean that, that's a thematic argument not a game mechanics one. Yes, it could very well be that is reason but you could always come up a counter thematic argument.

As for the second part, if I was a flying creature I would find it necessary to fly over a giant buzzsaw in the floor.

Big Remy said:

Err, I obviously missed your game mechanic argument, then.

As for the second part: See my first part! Fly over the buzzsaw in the floor and get cut by the one in the ceiling?

The main game mechanic argument is that there is nothing that says you can't Fly past SB, only you can't jump them and that from my reading of the rules, (which I will gladly state doesn't mean its actually the RAW. I'm making a new effort to on things like this to point that out) there is nothing about SB preventing it.

The main counter argument that I've seen is that they are traps, not obstacles so you can't do it. I've been countering that with the concept that once the trap is played, they become obstacles much like a pit trap does and should be treated as such. There are numerous obstacles that inflict damage when you move through them, and I'm almost positve that Fly bypasses them as all and therefore the same should apply to SB.

Again, I could be wrong but I can't find anything to actually say that in the RAW.

Thundercles said:

Tiger Tattoo allows a hero to suffer zero damage from pits and pit traps. It does not, however, allow them to avoid falling into the pit. So...pits basically become nothing more than something to slow movement on a character with tiger tattoo...which generally means you will save them for a different hero. If a hero has either wind pact or acrobat (or fly) with tiger tattoo...pit traps now basically give a hero a 1/6 chance for an extra movement point.