Hi,

I have recently started playing GoT LCG. I have played a number of 1v1 games with the core starter decks. After the few games, lots of discussions with my friend/opponent and reading the FAQ and forums I believe I have a basic understanding of how timing works,

I have now purchased a number of chapter packs, as yet my friend and I have not created a deck and used the new cards, but I have come across a card that frankly confuses me!!!

That card is Walder Frey. He has strength and no icons, so I read that he cannot declare as an attacker or defender, he is deadly and he has text, which I am reading as a passive ability: 'After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge, kneel Walder Frey to have him participate on the side that is currenly winning the challenge'.

Here is my confusion, I am used to Greatjon Umber, his ability allows him to participate in a challenge, but his ability comes in the Player Action window and is a choice, Walder Freys ability appears passive, but the text says 'during a challenge, kneel Walder Frey to have him participate' , I thought you had no choice about passive abilities taking effect, but the way the text is written makes me think I would have the choice?

My next cause of confusion is timing, I am guessng that the passive ability triggers in the Framework Action window where Stealth is chosen and defending player kneels defending characters, now my reading of a Framework Action window would be that each framework event initiates and resolves, so all stealth targets get assigned, then all defending characters are declared, then you move on to passive abilities. So I have to ask, why does Walders text say 'After at least 1 defender is declared...', why would it not just say 'After defenders are declared..'? Does Walder join the fight after 1 defender is declared (even if more are to be declared) or after all defenders are declared?

Even with this confusion (and I am very confused) I then wonder why you would want Walder Frey, it would seem that if I initiate any challenge and my opponent can bring more defending strength, all I do is have Walder join him, and if my opponent could not match my attackers strength, I don't need Walder to join the attack (although the deadly would aid either attacker or defender). I can see that he could help where the defender may rely on a character like the Greatjon to jump into the challenge in the Player Action Window, in this case the attacker would already have Walder on the attacking side.

I hope I have managed to clearly express my confusion, and look forward to your comments and responses.

Thanks

Sartar said:

You are correct that you have no choice. You must kneel Walder to have him participate in the challenge on the winning side whether you want him to or not. The thing to recognize is that just because an effect is passive does not mean it cannot have a cost (in this case, kneeling Walder). If Walder did not have this kneeling cost, then his passive effect would have him participating in every challenge where a defender was declared - instead of just those where he was standing when defenders were declared.

Sartar said:

As you say, passives are not initiated in the Framework Action window until all framework events have been resolved. You are also correct that all defenders are declared and knelt at one time, so there isn't time between declaring defender #1 and defender #2 for Walder's passive to jump him in. You seem to have an excellent understanding of the timing structure.

The practical difference between Walder's "After at least 1 defender is declared..." and the more common/intuitive "After defenders are declared..." is that if the defending player decides to let the challenge go unopposed (either because they don't have an eligible defender or because they just don't want to defend), then Walder will not get involved. Essentially, his wording prevents him from ever adding his STR to an unopposed challenge. It also puts an interesting decision to the defender - do you "chump block" in order to prevent your opponent from getting the power from "unopposed" knowing that Walder will jump in with his Deadly, or do you let it go unopposed knowing so as not to put the character in the path of Deadly, but knowing Walder is still out there?

Sartar said:

Well, Walder is more of a thematic card than anything else. He does have some practical uses (like making sure you win by 4 or more total STR for cards like Seductive Promise), but I have not seen him worked into too many decks because of the unpredictability and very small set of situations where he is useful (other than the fact that a 0-cost character is usually pretty useful if you manage to pull him on setup - at least you know who dies for your first lost military challenge!).

Thank you for your reply.. I feel I understand Walder now.

I have an another question on this card. This card said "After at least 1 defender is declared during a challenge, kneel Walder Frey to have him participate on the side that is currently winning the challenge." If other two players during a challenge and declare one more defender, must Frey join this challenge? Because this card does not say "After at least 1 defender is declared during your participating challenge".

Rex Tan said:

That is correct. If you are Player #4 in a Melee game, when Player #1 declares his first challenge against Player #3, as soon as Player #3 declares defenders, your Walder Frey will jump in on the winning side. It doesn't matter that you, the controller of the character, is not involved in the challenge as either the attacker or defender. Walder is that "fickle."

Sorry for the zombie thread res, but I have some more Walder Frey questions.

1) If Walder Frey is already knelt when his ability would normally trigger, does he participate in the challenge?

2) What happens if Walder Frey is given an icon (ex. Lordship) such that he can actively participate in challenges? If Walder Frey is knelt and already participating in a challenge where he is on the losing side, will he switch sides?

3) What if Walder Frey was already participating in a challenge, but was standing? Will he kneel then jump to the winning side?

TempestTenor said:

Technically, his ability activates during each and every challenge in which a defender is declared. However, if he's already kneeling, his effect fails and he does not join the challenge.

TempestTenor said:

Conceptually, participating as an attacker and a defender in the same challenge seems weird, even counterintuitive, but from a rules point of view, nothing prevents it and it doesn't create any sort of paradox in resolving the challenge. The character's STR is simply counted on both sides, essentially making his participation ineffective and without benefit for either side.

ktom said:

Thank you for the clarification. I shall endeavor to make a tournament deck where this happens as often as possible.