What was the reasoning behind this card's banning again?

Was it because it was too good of a kill card?

I completely forgot the reason myself. I thought that it went against the grain of power since it was based on a basic principle of the game, but i threw that out the window when i realised how stupid it sounded lol. I dont know why anymore..it seems like FS might go the same route as this cards IMHO.

Playing foundations is part of the game. So, each turn you play this card becomes deadlier. It was very easy to build a deck that stalled your opponent a couple extra turns then made it impossible for them to block one attack, which killed them. You only really needed to play CSS for your attacks, so the rest of your deck could be comitted to stopping your opponent from killing you, canceling their abilities, failing their checks, etc. You also checked extremely well. Playing 5 foundations on turn 1 was easy. Also, foundations that cost 3-4 like Tough Outer Shell and TYPFG were no longer prohibitively difficult or cumbersome for your deck, and they boosted the CSS quickly.

It was banned because by Nationals last year it had become a staple in many decks, and iirc the majority of decks at Nationals08 ran it, and because It was pushing the game more towards 1-shotting than Steve was comfortable with.

Yeah, everybody and their mom packed it at National 08. Voltron Kitten Force all packed it in their Team Worlds Championship decks.

I guess the reasoning that each turn you spam foundations it becomes deadlier is debatable. I just thought of the card as any other kill condition, just like Feline Spike. I know it was Block 2 (now legacy), but with the way the game seems as of now, it just seems like a viable kill condition left.

CSS and the rest of the cards that left within that window of time (Addes, Rank, Revitalize, etc) were banned because they were creating an "un-fun" environment. When the game was essentially becoming "wall wall wall wall wall wall wall SWIPE GG" it started to push both older players and newer players away.

It and it's ilk were banned because of the stale environment they were creating.

Archimedes said:

Wasn't that how the game was before Set 12? Just replace Swipe with Spike and All with Order? I will forever and ever say the banning of Swipe was wrong, as it was the things AROUND Swipe that made it an issue.

Was banned because it was a kill too efficient and so many decks ran 3 widow makers and 4 CSS. A lot of people are saying the same about spike but to be honest its getting more phased out as is so it might be staying for the remainder of block 3.

B-Rad said:

There are a few HUGE differences between Spike and Swipe.

1. Spike checks a 1

2. Spike costs 2 momentum

3. Spike checks a 1

4. Spike is 7 difficulty

5. Spike checks a 1

6. Spike costs 2 momentum

Swipe is 4 difficulty, so it's spammable. Its cost is the very basis of 90% of decks, and it becomes stupidly huge in the blink of an eye.

It's too effective and decks can, without having to worry about sacrificing killing power AT ALL, just run four Swipe as their entire attack lineup. Why bother running any other attacks? Swipe gets the job done without needing any additional setup or support.

Spike can't pump it's damage on it's own, and a player has to dedicate more resources in order to utilize (and protect) it's full potential (momentum hate, enhance hate towards Multiple, Stun, and printed E, and on some cases its Reversal).

Not to say that I like either one, mind you. It's just, pound for pound, CSS is the crazier card.

On the other hand there is so much more that stops CSS then Fspike in the current meta. Rejection makes the CSS player cry cause they just blew up all their foundations. Holding Ground makes it practically useless. And those are just two cards that are pretty much autoincludes for their symbols. There's plenty more out there. They completely nerf CSS yet, only stop a third of Fspike. Hmm.

aslum said:

yeah, and both those cards stop spike from being a kill as well. Not to mention torn hero makes the stun on spike worse than useless. You used rejection as an example, say you partial the first hit of spike and take 4, rejection the next gaining 3 and taking 1, then eat a full 8. 10dmg and your opponents card pull is clogged.

In the foundation wars game that this was a set or 2 ago spike was amazing as a one card kill. The meta has changed, and some of the other symbols got kills now. People don't have to run spike off-symbol as a kill in control decks, and aggro has cheaper faster kills. Nightmare has a few 4 difficulty attacks that rock 2H5 and 5H5 and those are vanilla attacks. Some combo attacks are amazing. I personally think dragon's flame is way underrated and has way more damage potential than Knight Breaker. Hades axe 4m5 with built in damage pump, Midnight Launcher 3H7, Dragon's Flame at the cost of comiiting one foundation is now a 5M18 ouch...And all rock 3 checks

Smazzurco said:

Oh and the whole "Spike costs two momentum" argument kind of dies at the mention of Lord of the Makai, White Magic, Family Heirloom and Natural Leader, or even Ascending Zephyr if the character has Chaos too.

aslum said:

Rejection was there when CSS was at it's peak. Look what good it did. Same with Holding Ground.

Isn't the real difference between CSS and Feline Spike the fact that it's a lot easier to force a single lethal CSS through than it is to make all three Spike copies hit? Checking a 1 isn't really that much worse than checking a 2 when you only have 4-7 attacks and are usually checking against a 3-4 difficulty for foundations anyway.

Checking 2 instead of 1 can be planned around better turn 1, which is the important part. If you're going second, you can play 3-4 cards at 3 difficulty which will not fail unless you check two 2's in a row. It's MUCH more difficult to plan around possibly checking a 1 - most of the time people don't even bother.

Don't forget that 24 damage isn't necessarily lethal, either. So, you either have to throw a second Spike or have done damage previously. With CSS, you only had to throw one attack, and that's a CSS. As Cetonis said, it's also a lot easier to force through one attack. If you used KFT and had 2 BRTs on the board, it doesn't matter too much what someone else's board looks like, checking a 20 to block an attack is still quite difficult. The later a game goes with Spike, the harder it is to kill someone with it as long as they've got cards in their hand for blocking. That's not the case for CSS.

The momentum generation is also a bigger thing. It's an extra mechanic you have to put in your deck. It also means that players can use some of the anti-momentum stuff out there. It's not a ton of stuff, but it's there. For CSS, all you did was play foundations.

Tagrineth said:

Spike checks a 1: Well when the rest of the deck checks 5+, four cards, with a crap load of card draw can more or less make the 1 a moot point.

Spike costs 2 momentum: Hi I'm Lord of the Makai. I, as a free enhance generate one momentum from either my hand or the top of my deck. I'm protected from Olcadan's Mentoring by things such as Blinding Rage, Makai High Noble, Red Lotus, and Oral Dead, all of which match at least one symbol with me. Oh, and I also check a 6.

Spike checks a 1: See the first one.

Spike is 7 difficulty: See, when a deck checks 5+ on average, and already has a HUGE wall of grey, passing a 7 is almost mindless. Hell, my Felcia deck, which is balls out aggro can pass a 7 on the first turn.

I won't answer the rest of your points because you can't actually think of new/good ones. Oh, but I can add some more pros:

Spike has Reversal: So AFTER I've blocked your Swipe and you've blown up your board for nothing (having negated/modified ONE enhance with at least six cards off the top of my head (American Made, No Memories, Evil Doer Destroyer, Seal of Cessation, Spiritual Centre, Stone Mail) I'll Spike you, gain my two momentum from my Lord of the Makais, and you're probably dead, if not close so I can Tag Along and Spike you on my turn.

Spike has Stun 2: So after reversaling you, I can force you to commit two cards.

Spike's E: That Mark of the Beast/Ichi no Scratchy in your hand? Yeah congrads on it's static being ignore? That Make a Difference you left unblown up? Yeah enjoy it sitting there.

So what this has turned into is 'comparing' Spike, arguably the current strongest attack in the meta, against the old strongest attack in the meta...

There is always going to be a 'best' attack, and people are almost always going to single it out and continue to point out it's pros vs. cons.

It has been said in this post a lot, the reason CSS was banned is quite obvious - overuse, and of similar strategies (arguably boring build ones).

The designers, seeing a degenerate strategy has emerged as very viable and seemingly sucessful, decide to ban the card to a) change things up a little, and b) change the card game to a more hit - hit - hit game, with multiple opportunities to defend part or all of the big kill.

Is there still Powerful 3+ cards and free momentum gain aka Makai? YES. Are there then cards that are fairly similar to a CSS deck... YES! Is it still the most viable strategy to build build build and drop one big attack? No and yes... And the reason why is becuase the big attack relies on momentum or a long period of time to ensure the kill.

How many decks do you see lately that build foundations that push attacks through and then drop ONE big Fire Kick on people... Well, maybe a few... But let's not forget, all of this demands multiple attacks to use Makai's enhance, or multiple turns to use other free momentum stuff (white gi, white magic, etc., etc.)

Multiple attacks, as bolded above, is the key word here. Or multiple periods of time.

Would CSS still be used if it was around? Yes. Would people have moved away from CSS once realizing the speed and power of the Spike? Yes. Both would be run, and I'm pretty sure both would still be complained about.

Whatever is popular and sucessful gets attention and is suspect to ban by the powers that be. In this case, they made a good decision (imo) for the game. Would banning/errating Spike be good for the game? Maybe... But more likely than not we would see people target the next biggest target (maybe Minuet?). Bottom line, there are a lot of viable strategies right now, and there were when CSS were out, perhaps timing is everything?

- dut

Homme Chapeau said:

Not only Rejection, but Bleeding Internally and Broken Leg.

Really, Rejection and the Injuries + laughably easy recursion {Military Rank being the biggest key IMHO} was what made CSS so popular. It's virtually impossible to kill a grey war deck through 2 Injuries on your key attacks, if you even get to the point where he is forced to use cards from his hand to defeat your attacks.

But build a deck that can play on equal footing with the CSS player in the foundation war, and then you stand a chance of breaking through the wall of blue cards, once you can build up board advantage. But once you can win the foundation war... what better way to win than CSS?

^dut: I definitely do not believe that anything in the meta today would be enough to push me, personally, away from running a CSS deck. I still play Cutting Edge, and that card is basically the defensive equivalent of CSS.

B-Rad said:

Running a 2cc means you can guarantee 3 cards on your first turn 90% of the time. If you flip that 1, your turn is over instead and you're automatically behind a turn.

B-Rad said:

Hi, I'm Calming the Mind/Revenant's Calling/Ikari Warrior/Whatever the crap else halts momentum generation. Scroll of the Abyss also pretty much shuts off Feline Spike, as do various newer cards like that one Rashotep foundation that rips a keyword off a card, or the Yi Shan attack that donuts a keyword ability on a card.

Spike is also 3 hits, which means 3 different attacks you have to push through, which is harder to do than just pushing one single hit if you want the full damage.

B-Rad said:

Yeah, but that 7 difficulty makes it very hard to, say, play a second Spike after the first one, and the 7 difficulty combined with the 1 control means if you flip another copy of it playing one, your turn is over.

B-Rad said:

If you don't get my points to begin with, I guess you didn't get my repeating them to drive the point in.

Just as an example of how damning that 1cc is, Scuba basically lost at least one match at Worlds specifically because he flipped Spike too many times, with 3 copies of it in his 70+ card Dan deck.

B-Rad said:

If you blocked my Swipe, I did something wrong. Only a complete dunce would Swipe straight into any of the cards you just listed without having all the answers laid out and ready to push the fatal Swipe. Or are you automatically assuming your opponent is a bad player? That'll always make your own strategy seem stronger...

B-Rad said:

Yeah, right into my Torn Hero right? OH MAN SEE I CAN PLAY THE LIST COUNTERS GAME TOO

B-Rad said:

Nah, I negated your Spike enhance with my No Memories/Evil Doer Destroyer or prevented you from using it AND Multiple with Scroll of the Abyss, or some such COUNTER WARZ tripe.

Edit: oh and for the record I personally think the only valid point making Spike broken in any way is its Enhance.

Wafflecopter has earned my undrying respect for comments like the previous.

Only an idiot would turn a blind eye to playing CSS now, if it were legal. Hell, I'd play it in some ridiculous form of Donovan, running that as my only attack, with sets of Strife's and crap, with some ungodly tri-symbol build, to do that.

Or can you imagine ASTRID with that?!

Also, counter to Spike nobody ever thinks of - Warrior's Dream Bison. Pick two enhances - they're all you get.

Tagrineth said:

-Your list of counters is fail. Calming the Mind is the ONLY card worth mentioning in your list, and it doesn't necessary HALT momentum generation so much as DELAYS. Any intelligent spike player would simply use Makai, get the momentum at the end of the turn, and either Feline on your turn or the next one. Revenant's doesn't negate, it just commits. Ikari Warrior will never EVER see play, and the same could pretty much be said about Scroll and Yi Shan's Spinning Back Fist. Undisputed Ruler (Rashotep foundation) is pretty cool, but it's a sideboard card much like Destiny, and with almost every Feline deck running Chester's and Chinese, good luck getting it to get off.

-Feline is 3 attacks essentially. It's too bad they all act as one since no copy is ever blocked, or as I've discovered, a player NEEDS to block ALL copies.

-Um, dude, you don't PLAY another Feline; one is always all that's needed.

-I like your story about how Swipe shouldn't be blocked. Everytime Swipe hits the table, as you mentioned, you have all the necessary answers to make sure it goes through without a hitch. The exact same is true about Feline Spike. To disagree would mean you are wrong.

-No, you did NOT use No Memories or Evil Doer Destroyer because those two have horrible symbols and because Evil Destroyer is an asset. Your also didn't use Scroll because, again, it sucks balls, and is not a counter woth mentioning for that reason. In order to list a counter, it needs to see play.

-And for the record, Spike isn't just broken because of its enhance: it also starts as a mediocre 4HIGH for 8 DMG and turns into a game-winning 4-HIGH for 24 damage (or rather, you must make three control checks to block, or w/e).

Like I've said for over a year now, and have said in this very post, if you want to list counters, you have to make sure they're actually, iuno, good?

-Revenant's stops Defender loop, at the very least. BOTH abilities. Also halts momentum gen via LotM, etc.

-Player does not need to block all copies. Loop Rejection, block one and reverse with own Spike, block one, eat one, Rejection one, etc.

-Opponent is playing Hugo. Hugo vitality > 24. GG, Shinji.

-CSS > Spike in every way. Spike doesn't NEED anything to back it up, except momentum and foundations to pass checks. CSS, on the other hand, will always win the game, where Spike may not. Spike doesn't have to go through, so long as it eats up enough of the opponent's resources (foundations) for it to be possible for a second Spike to finish the job.

-No Mems, EDD, and Scroll DO see play. Pay more attention before making comments like that, please.

-My math might be bad, but isn't 3HX, where X is always greater than or equal to your opponent's maximum vitality, better than 4H24 if unblocked?

But using actual evidence - which one of these cards is banned, and which one isn't?

And which one would be immediately turned to as the de facto kill card of every deck that could run it if it were unbanned?

Hm, quandary...

MegaGeese said:

E and Multiple. Easy enough - Also, that Bison doesn't see play because the first ability costs way too much and the second allows for your opponent to draw a card and is very situational. Although off Evil with Dread Pirate means you get 3 cards with a confirmed attack.