Corbon said:

The difference is, I said my claim was hyperbole, and not ONCE did I try to prove that you can actually kill2 heroes EVERY turn. There is clearly no way that could happen, anyone who has played the game can tell you that. The other people in this thread have actually been trying to prove their impossible scenarios, to no avail of course. My claim still stands: You cannot get of a dungeon in one or even 2 turns without an EXACT combination of items/skills/feats/heroes/map and bad OL play. It simply cannot be done.

Dashakan said:

Apart from the Secret Training thing, which I did miss, the res tof your argument is irrelevant. You set no critieria on OL play, equipment or hero composition. So I really fail to see how "my little scenario" fails to come close to refuting it.

Even if you take the Secret Training away, it is still possible to exit the level in 2 turns. Granted, you will probably miss the gold piles in that case, but the rest is still able to be done. Just because someone refutted your claim is no grounds for slinging mud. Yes, I realize the claim about killing two a turn was hyperbole, but I really don't see how that impacts your "mathmatically impossible" statement about doing a level in 2 turns.

I do get the impression that you really just won't listen anyways, even if I do come back with a corrected example so I'm not really sure what the point is.

Dashakan said:

Ironic. You do realize that this very statement means you agree that it is possible to happpen don't you?

Big Remy said:

I could go back and count, but I will let you, at least 3 times in this thread I have specifically stated it was impossible to be done WITHOUT an exaxt set of heroes/items/skills/feats/map etc. Seriously, at LEAST 3 times I said it. How could you possibly have missed it every time? Oh yeah, you are commenting on a thread you HAVEN'T READ YET. Who is trolling now?

BigRemy - your entire problem in this thread is that you are seriously muddling what was said about what. The "mathmatically impossible" was about not being able to get the chest and get out in one turn on any map, with the caveat listed on the Throne Room level (in which you would have to leave a guy to die)

I have said time and again that, in a general situation (one that doesnt include an exacting list built for that situation) you cannot get off a dungeon level in even 2 turns. Again, nothing has proved me wrong on that front.

If the heroes go into every dungeon in copper, and just grab stuff off of the first floor, and then leave, they are going to rapidly run out of dungeons to explore. Not to mention the fact that Lieutenants are going to raise hell since the heroes have to flee back to Tamalir every time. The OL always has a rougher time on the first floor of a dungeon, but if he saves cards and threat headed into the next floor (as a smart OL will) then the heroes have very little chance of getting off that floor without 2-3 deaths and several turns, probably 5-6.

If you go back and read through the thread, start to finish, you will see what I am saying. It seems you have read only my posts, and not the ones that I was responding to. Go back and read the whole thing.

Dashakan said:

No, I read the whole thing. And I actually just re-read the whole thing. We are getting our arguments crossed.

My entire example and argument is merely there to point out that is is incorrect to say that it is "impossible" to do a dungeon level, in Copper, in 2 turns. I actually went and looked and the only time you refer to Secret Training was in discussing the example people gave of doing it in Silver and Gold. No where did you say "someone show me how to do this in Copper but you can't have a secret training upgrade for fatigue."

Yes, if you randomly selected a party, skills, equipment, etc and tried to do it, 99% of the time it won't happpen. Fortunately, a 1% chance doesn't equal impossible. I fully agree with you there.

Dashakan said:

Dashakan said:

There are 3 dungeons. within 1 space of tamalir that don't require any party upgrades at all. That's 3 dungeons you can get into and flee with little to no loss in conquest. If you can make it through the first level unscathed-we have done this 2-3 times in our most recent campaign, at least 2 of those in copper and one in the very first level, going back to tamalir is not a problem.

There is one more that requires the boat to get to, which you can probably afford by the time you go through 3 dungeons.

There are 5 more dungeons within 2 spaces of tamalir, so that once you have the staff of the wild and the boat (2500 gold total spent) you can get to all of them in a single turn.

Based on this you could go turn 1-Thelsvan highway-dungeon level or two-flee to tamalir, turn 2-starfall forest: again, get in and out and back to tamalir. turn 3-blackwing swamp, pick up the staff from the shop after glyphing out but before actually fleeing, turn 4 gardens of tarn or gate to the north, turn 5 the other one pick up the boat, turn 6 red echo river, turn 7 korinas tears, 8, plains of the ruby gate, 9 hanging woods.

9 turns, 9 dungeons if you really wanted. Now then, you're gonna probably stop a few times to upgrade. You may even want to cruise down to olmric and get some fatigue upgrades before your copper level runs out. I'm not saying I'd do it, but you have 9 dungeons you can get to from tamalir on a single turn with the boat and staff of the wild, which you have to get at some point, anyway.

That's only one third of the dungeons, not including the legendary ones...and I suggest you NOT pass up silver, as the reward is great and the level not that bad. I also suggest you spread around those 9 easily accessible dungeons for early parts of each campaign level. Point is, you won't run out of dungeons. The OL WILL get some kills in at some point, and so will the heroes. You will be in Silver before you know it.

taking 2-3 dungeons and using them to get some quick cash and xp while everything is still copper is a good strategy. Eventually, you WILL deal with silver monsters and it will be harder when you face them. Saying the OL has an advantage in copper is accurate. Saying he has a 3 to 1 advantage and heroes can never escape a level without giving up 3-4 kills IS hyperbole or a sign of poor play from somebody. The manner in which you talk to nearly everyone on this forum is rude, uses ad hominem (a logical fallacy of name calling), shows no sense of community, invalidates your opinion, and makes me not care about it even when your statements hold water because you are so willing to call people idiots when there is one little flaw in their logic...yet there are so many flaws evident to so many of us in so many of your arguments. I am done with this thread that was supposed to be about what is good to upgrade and has basically become some sort stupid contest of ego that shows a lot of good points "shot down" because someone is too certain of his limited experience to believe that anyone else may have experienced something differently unless that person is somehow inferior to him. Pathetic.

Ai, don't call ad hominem and then return the favor. That just gives Dashakan a reason to disregard your argument.

Look, Dakashan, you're saying it's impossible to complete a dungeon in 2 turns given "general setups", right? Well, the trouble with the "general setup" idea is that heroes who know what they're doing know to flee the first 3-4 dungeons they see. It's just smart play. Then, with the 12-16+ conquest, treasures, and money they should have obtained from those levels, the next smart move is to turn your party into the kind of party that can speedrun dungeons. Thus, a "general setup" gets turned into a "unique situation" where you speedrun dungeons. As Feanor says, the Heroes have 9 dungeons to loot/flee in order to tune up for speed running.

Given a draw 3-choose1 party of 4 heroes, if the heroes choose at least 1 runner character, you can tune your party to speedrun dungeons in copper in 2 turns. It's quite doable. The number of dungeon levels required to get the resources to hit that goal varies, but good hero play makes it highly likely, if not always possible.

Keeping up a huge OL conquest dominance requires bad play on the part of the heroes. The number of heroes you can kill on turn 1 of a dungeon is very limited, and highly dependant on your starting 5 cards (4 if Wind Pact). If the heroes advance to level 2 or 3 without being prepared (money, treasures, upgrades), then you can kill them repeatedly and keep up the advantage. The OL can use some resources to stall the heroes: City capturing, putting a second danger in your deck, focused, monster upgrades. However, the game speed is highly determined by how fast the heroes move on turn 1.

In Remy's example, if you drop a monster on the treasure chest, it's no big deal. Just send Nanok to town on turn 1. Then, you can use attacks from 2 heroes to take down the treasure chest monster and anyone the OL decides to put up as interference (since it only takes 3 monsters on that map). If Silhouette is killed, it makes it easier to complete the level in turn 2, since she would get all her fatigue back. If the OL concentrates on Silhouette and kills her, then the CT count comes out even, which still shows that good hero play prevents a huge disparity in conquest token totals, and it doesn't stop the heroes from finishing on turn 2.

Why don't you set up the monsters and then post it here: we'll be glad to post a first turn, which you can counter with a first turn. Would that satisfy? Also, I'd like to start adding a "better OL starting hand" and seeing how it changes things. Giving the OL the Danger card is a little too strong, but how about a more reasonable hand? Spiders, gust, aim, Trapmaster, Crushing Block is a pretty common starting hand (after turn 1 draw) for me.

Thundercles said:

I didn't.

Dashakan said:

Your words are self-fulfilling, honestly. When you use words phrases like "general situation" you make it impossible to give an example, as there are no generic characters, skills, or levels with which to attempt to show you. Every character, skillset, party, and level is a completely non-general very specific setup, even if they are terrible.

But you should really go through and read the entire thread again, because not only do you continually hedge and change your argument, but you are also doing a great job of ignoring the fact that you added specifics to a general statement that didn't exist, then called upon the entire populace to defend it, all in order to hide the fact that you were called out for a grossly over-exaggerated statement.

Dashakan said:

I understand this idea. I would even recommend that you try to finish up the 1st level in the first 3 dugeons. But you must remember as a hero the game has two sides of the table. You need to watch what the OL is doing.

As some general rules, I recommend fleeing a dungeon in copper (first 3 or so) If any of the following happens:

1) Monsters are the OL's best resource. By far most numerous, reusable, and damage dealing. PLEASE if your draw a tier one level boss for your first dungeon RUN. For you new players tier one monsters are the Giant, Demon, and Dragon.

2) Power cards. If your OL gets a power card in play before you have left the 1st level you should not try to complete the 2nd level

3) Several of the heroes are low in health, show the OL their mistake by going to the temple first then fleeing.

The main resources you want (as a hero) at the begining of the game are

1) Equipment: better weapons means less attacks spent killing monsters

2) Dice upgrades: for the same reason

3) Fatigue for the tactical advantage (remember this gets replenished between dungeons. Anouther good reason to flee.)

Of course all these things cost gold but gold is a MEANS not an end.

Remember heroes the OL gets stronger the longer you are in a dungeon. This means two things. Not only should you try to get through a dungeon as fast as you can but when you are first starting out fleeing dugeons is the way to go. You keep the OL from being able to play the long game that they are good at. Keep the OL to the short game (begining of the dungeon) as much as you can and keep the upper hand.

ISSUES:

This is one thing that makes the beginign of the RTL feel odd to old hat RPGers. What do you mean the heroes should run? I am the hero after all. The issue is that the reward for finishing a dungeon (2x xp and bonus gold) is generally not worth the effort in copper. Now you do have to keep an eye on how many dungeons are left on the board but I think running out will be more difficult than you may first think.

Encounters also can help greatly. The main issue with these are you risk getting ambushed. I would not let this deture you from trying to get them. But please if your OL has upgraded beasts remember the critters most numerous in encounters is....... you guessed it beasts.

For those of you playing the advanced version at home. You should see my recomendations for the OL's 1st two upgrades as well as the heroes first 3 to 5.

pinkymadigan said:

No. What I am saying is that you cannot do a dungeon floor in 1 or 2 turns 99.9% of the time. Sure, if you have these 2 items AND this exact feat AND these 2 skills all on THIS character AND the OL has no traps AND the OL plays poorly and doesn't spawn correctly then you can clear it in 2 turns.

All I have been saying is that you can't say something is possible (or as some seem to think, probable) and then point out 7 things that have to happen an exact way to make it so. Draw a party. Run a dungeon. Do it 100 times. Not once will you clear it in 1 or 2 turns.

To be honest the whole issue of running a floor that fast came up because I said that if you buy silver monsters early, the heroes will *****. In my experience, they do *****. And they die. If you can get silver monsters by the second or third dungeon you are going to have an easy time of it as OL. That is all.

Dashakan said:

Right, but you are trying to make Remy prove it on a grand scale, when his original statement said nothing of the sort, nor did it say anything about a random starting party, or even a starting party. I don't believe the skill that allows +2 speed has been brought up or the feat that gives +3 mp for the turn. Really, there are lots of ways to get 20+ mp that early. And I'm fairly certain in a hundred random party draws I'd make sure to have a party with one of the multiple combinations that could do that by the end of copper **** near every first level of every dungeon, even with monsters in the way.

Just remember that the runner isn't the one opening the doors necessarily, and that they definitely aren't the ones killing the mobs (and that with good fatigue expenditure, battling heroes can move up to nine without any of these random boosts).

I don't think that we'd all be sitting here telling you it was common enough if we hadn't all experienced it over and over again.

Stop putting artificial limits on the argument. Go back and read the statement you are actually arguing against.

pinkymadigan said:

It was pointed out to me, incorrecly, that there where a number of dungeons where the treasure AND exit where in range of a running hero in one turn. I turned around and said that in not a single one of the listed dungeons was that true. I was right, but other people are still trying to prove it in vain.

And here we start all over again *sigh*

Are you talking about solely in Cooper, prior to Secret Training? If so you are potentially right. Anything past that, and you are incorrect as I've ALREADY shown.

I was more than likely the one who said 1 turn, which I will give you is very unlikely. I won't say its impossible because I'm not stupid enough to say that since I can't look at every possibility (naturally the flip side is that I also can't say 100% that its possible). However, after a fatigue upgrade in Copper, or in SIlver or Gold, once the potential is there for two fatigue upgrades a Hero like Shilhoutte has 19 MP on a Run, 27 if they drink a fatigue potion during that run (2 fatigue upgrades required). This isn't counting additional movement points from equipment, skills, feats.

Do me a favor. State SPECIFICALLY what your argument is again as to why it is impossible and I want an actual EXAMPLE, not just you saying "its mathmatically impossible" or "impossible without a specific combination" because both of those are meaningless statements, especially the second one which actually contradicts ITSELF.

Big Remy said:

This thread is about copper. Period. The person who propsed it used mathmatics (go back and look at who) based on a max movement of 19. Run action = 5 + 5 + (maxfatigue x2) -1. since the answer was 19, max fatigue was 5, hence the no secret master training. These are not paramaters I set. Other people put themselves to these impossible standards and then you picked up their cause.

Wow.

Okay, so since it was a standard set by someone else, and my example was targetted to YOUR statements, I actually wasn't even bound by that was I? So why again is my example invalid when it was set in Copper and YOU never said that there could be no secret training?

And while we are on it, that statement about 19MP doens't even set a standard. YOU are claiming it does based on the math but again, I can't find a spot where someone said "try doing it without Secret Training.

Big Remy said:

Sigh. Thundercles on page 3 of this thread.

The problem Big Remy, is you are just jumping into the midst of a discussion, without understanding what was being discussed. It isn't my fault if your reading comprehension skill isn't up to snuff and you don't realize what parameters the discussion was within, and I don't feel obligated to explain it to you. Either read the thread, then contribute, or don't post.

It's like people discussing fruit and you keep throwing vegetables in. It's close, but it really isn't what is being talked about.

Dashakan said:

Man you are arrogant. Actually, I've read this thread about 4 times now, and all I've seen is that you keep changing your arguments and then lowering yourself to insulting people who are showing you to be wrong.

Big Remy said:

No, i'm really not. It is very simple. I will spell it out for you: A number of dungeons were claimed to have been passable (pick up treasure and leave) in 1 turn, with a maximum possible 19 movement points. It is actually possible on none of them. That is it.

Dashakan said:

Wait, this is all because of me?

heh.

well, to clarify: I never once said that you should use a single character to get the treasure and also run out the door. My assertion using math was that, given the 19 mp's you could have with starting stats, it's possible to take the treasure and glyph on many levels with one character.

You said that I had to take the treasure and go out the door with a single hero, specifically in the Prison level, where I said that the treasure chest is 19 mp's away and you countered that you would need 21 mp's to open the door after getting that chest.

You established the condition that it had to be completed in one turn after I said "run in, grab the treasure, and run out", even though all I said was that the treasure was within starting mp range on many maps, and I never said that they would have to leave immediately after. Run in, grab the treasure, and run out is a really non-technical, non turn-limited statement. An idiom, if you will.

You assumed there was a condition that fatigue upgrades were not necessary after I said that you could reach treasure chests with 19 mp's on most levels. I was saying that it's so easy to grab the treasure chests quickly that it can be done in 1 turn on most dungeons without fatigue upgrades. How that became the new bar to reach for taking treasure chests and escaping the dungeon I still don't quite understand.

In short, Remy asserted that you could take the treasure, get the glyph, kill the boss, and leave the level in two turns copper. You said that was laughable. I said that you can grab the glyph and treasure in the first turn on most levels with starting stats, implying that Remy wasn't talking out of his ass, and you suddenly started talking about this single turn nonsense.

You said it isn't feasible to take down maps in copper in two turns on page 2. That's wrong. You perverted my arguments to apply crazy limits to what everyone else is saying. Then you used an exasperated tone of typing to tell Remy that I had established some crazy limits on what he was trying to prove even though I never did and he actually proved you could do what you had called laughable back on page 2 . Not only that, but you told Remy that he wasn't the one who proposed the speedrun of a dungeon; instead it was me for some reason, even though you rightly told me I didn't know what I was talking about the first time I posted.

You really got lost somewhere during this thread. I suggest you reread the thread, since your memory might be playing tricks on you, as memories are wont to do.

Dashakan said:

This never happened. Welcome to misinterpretation. Sometimes, if everyone's telling you you're wrong, you're actually wrong.

It isn't feasible to take only 2 turns on a floor in copper. It probably isn't possible either, barring moronic OL play as has been shown in this thread.

In conclusion, apparently every one here is an expert at playing as the heroes. Bravo, well done. However, apparently most are not as skilled at playing as the OL, and have much to learn.

Dashakan said:

Dashakan said: