Dashakan said:

Ha. Big Remy jumped into the middle of this conversation? You might want to look at reply #1, then look at how many times Remy appears on each page here, and what he's saying. Just because you keep adding artificial context to the conversation doesn't mean it's there.

You REALLY REALLY REALLY should reread the thread, which it seems all of us continue to do, quoting it no less, while you continue to make things up.

Yup I am inventing things. Everything I have said can be gone back through, and referenced. perhaps you cannot follow which responses are tied to which posts? Because what BigRemy was most recently trying to "prove" was an a side from a conversation that did not in any way involve him.

I don't understand your intent to derail a thread by talking about what was what and whos talking to who. Bottom line is this: If you buy silver monsters early, the heroes will have a tough time of it. And the heroes cannot complete a floor in 1 or 2 turns, in early copper. Those are facts, not really anything that needs discussing here.

Dashakan said:

The point is; that's not the argument any one is making, that's the argument that you are trying to make us make. The heroes can complete floors in 2 turns under certain circumstances in early copper, as shown, however, what was said was that in copper the heroes can complete a dungeon in a turn or two - nothing about early copper at all. And these things are all true.

You really need to go back through the posts - because all your arguments add additional restrictions on top of things that were said - which is why who said what when is very important - and I'm clearly not derailing the conversation any worse than anyone else.

You accused Remy of coming in the middle of the discussion like you didn't even notice that he's been responding to you the entire time. You then accuse us of having poor reading comprehension skills. I suggest you reread things yourself.

pinkymadigan said:

Haha. Yes, just because he posted in the thread before I did doesn't mean he was the one that this particular coversation started off with. He wasn't, he just jumped in, as you are doing now. Since I am the only person who has actually been a part of this conversation for the duration, I think I know what I am saying, who I have been talking to, what I meant, and who said what to who.

I am not trying to make anybody make any argument, and I sure don't have a clue what point you are trying to make posting in this thread. I proved exactly what I wanted to, so the conversation is over. Would you like to start a new discussion? or did you just come to point fingers, blame, and muddy the waters?

Dashakan said:

Right. Go back and look how often you've actually responded to Remy and I throughout this thread. I think you'll find your memory is flawed. We've both been on board this conversation from the get go. You're really bad at this whole reading thing.

Really? All the times I was talking to Corbon/granor/Thundercles I was talking to you? Get over yourself, don't be so vain. It isn't my fault you can't tie in the proper responses to the proper posts.

Dashakan said:

No, but the times in question you were talking mostly to Remy. But you did accuse me of jumping in the middle of the conversation, which I am not. I firmly back the general populace's opinion that it is indeed possible (though circumstances must provide) to run a copper level dungeon in two turns, which is the comment that Remy made that set you off about one turn with no upgrades starting equipment yadda yadda yadda... (and all the other arguments you tried to pin him to) then you accused him of jumping in the middle of the conversation when he gave you an example.

The funny thing about internet forums is you are not addressing individuals - you are holding a public conversation - maybe you failed to notice how these things work. So you did not directly address me early on, it's no big deal, I was still addressing YOU directly. That makes me a part of the conversation, whether you like it or not. If you'd like to avoid public opinion being thrown into the conversation, perhaps you can IM corbon/granor/thundercles if you feel they are the only ones worth talking to.

But the statement that sparked your barrage of misconception was Remys, so accusing him of jumping in the conversation is just baseless.

pinkymadigan said:

I have no problem having a discussion with many people, however YOU have done nothing but come in and throw around accusations, switching up what was said to who, and in general, as I said, muddied up the waters. It is pretty clear at this point you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, or you would have with your last 3 or 4 posts.

Once again, I made my point, people disputed me but didn't prove me wrong (since you cannot get the treasure and get off the floor in 1 turn EVER, and in 2 would require an EXACT setup of items/skills/heroes/map/feats + bad OL play). I am not holding anyone to anything, I am simply stating a fact, it was disputed, turns out I was right. Doesn't mean the other things people proved were wrong, they just didn't apply to what I was saying. Now if you have something to contribute, do so. If you don't, stop running up your post count.

Dashakan said:

lilililililililililililii lil! dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dididuuuum dididuuuum dididuuuum didi!

Your mission Jim- Okaluk , should you choose to accept it, is to take your team through a dungeon level, collect the loot, kill the boss and escape in less than two turns. Your team is new, but capable.
Alongside yourself as team Leader you will have Blessed Runemaster Thorn , with his Crystalise Rune and One-Fist with his Belt of Strength and that curious Tiger Tattoo he sports. Last and very much least I'm afraid you are going to need to work with that crazed deviant Landrec with his Staff of 'Punishment '. At least he is Quick-casting !
Each team member will have one item from the stores (bronze treasure), and one vial of combat drugs (potion). Blah blah blah. This message will self destruct in 5, 4, 3, 2, fizzzzzt, poof.

...

Level 23 Pit Fiend
All right lads, here's the plan. The bad guys have Razorwings (5W3A) here, here, and here, sitting on the coin piles and glyph. Another Razorwing is in the south west corner of the main room where he will be in the best position to conterattack in several directions. A Master Ferrox ( 6W4A) is sitting on the treasure chest marked here, with an X. One-fist, you take the Ferrox - gut him with your hook and scare the others. Thorn - yours is the south-west coin pile Razorwing. Take him down and grab the cash. Landrec, you... no, I'm not interested in a little side punishment thank you, shut up and listen. Landrec, you run forward into the main room, sight up the boss (14W5A) and be ready. I'll take the first coin pile Razorwing and then give you the signal to blast the boss. Landrec, you'll probably take somne punishment in the counterattack... yes, I knew you'd prefer it that way, but we'll have your back. Oh, and everyone, watch out for pits. The OL has some secret technology that makes them move around.

Starting on glyph, clockwise round;
Okaluk, Leadership, Axe, Leather, Ring of Quickness (Hammer in pack)
Thorn with Blessing, Bronze pierce rune, Wizards robes(? shop item), Fatigue pot, Ghost Armour
Landrec with Quick Casting, Staff of Punishment, Chainmail, Power Pot
One fist with Tiger Tattoo, Sword, Shield, Belt of Strength, Power Pot, Ring of Quickness

One Fist Runs (10MP) spending 9MP to get adjacent to the Master Ferrox on the Chest, and the last MP for a Power pot. He uses his Claw/hook attack for (RGagagagb+1) 10 damage killing the Master Ferrox. 1 Fatigue moves him onto the chest, 2 Fatigue to open the chest, 1 Fatigue remains unspent.

Landrec Runs (6MP) heading north to the edge of the large roon, then spends 2 Fatigue to Move into the room and beside the pits (now in sight and at Range 3 of the Boss) and 1 fatigue to chug a Power Pot. Landrec has 2 Fatigue left.

Okaluk Readies , paying 1 fatigue to use leadership, giving him 6MP, an attack and an Order. He places the Order, a Guard, on Landrec. He advances 6 spaces to be adjacent to the coin pile and attacks the Razorwing with his Axe for (RGbb) 7 damage. He spends his last fatigue on an extra black dice (~) and kills the razorwing. He uses the MP from the Ring of Quickness to move onto the Coin pile. He has 0 fatigue remaining.

Thorn Advances (5MP) spending his 5 MP to Teleport beside the Razorwing in the corner. He then attacks the Razorwing with his Pierce Rune for (WGbbb) 6 damage and 3 surges (Pierce 6), killing the razorwing. He spends 1 fatigue to move onto the coin pile. He has 3 Fatigue remaining.

As the OL begins his turn, Landrec interrupts and shoots the Boss with his Staff of Punishment (WGauauag) for 1 range, 11 damage and 4+2 surges. 2 of the surges are spent on range, 4 on damage, for 15 damage on the boss (takes 10 wounds). Landrec then Quick casts (2 fatigue) and shoots the Boss again (WGbbb) for 3 Range, 5 damage and 3+2 Surges. All surges are spent on damage and the Boss is killed.

The OL now has 0 spawning spots and 2 Razorwings left. OL rolls a 2/2 on the white dice (best possible result for him) and is able to drop a pit under Landrec. The north-most pit moves east, northeast and now sits between the glyph and the door. Landrec takes 2 poison damage from the pit. The Razorwing from the glyph moves 3 to sit beside Landrec and hits him (RG) for 6 damage (4 wounds), then moves 3 back to continue sitting on the Glyph. The second Razorwing also attacks Landrec for 5 damage (3 wounds) and then moves to stand in front of the doorway on the south side.

Thorn Advances (5MP), teleports to the end of the corridor beside the glyph/Razorwing and Shoots it with his Pierce Rune (WGbbb) for 7 Damage and 4 surges, more than enough to kill it. He spend 1 fatigue to move on the Glyph and Activate it, 1 fatigue for a MP and his last fatigue to chug a Fatigue pot. He spends his 4 fatigue on MP and now has 5 MP - 2 to the doorway (around the pit), 2 to open the door, 1 to enter the portal.

Landrec Runs (6MP) spending 2 to get out of the pit and 3 more to enter the portal.

One Fist Runs (10MP) straight to the portal.

Okaluk Runs (12MP) and can jump over the Pits blocking the western corridor and still exit the Portal using the extra MP fromn his ring to get around the last Razorwing.

Heroes go to town for healing, market and potions at the start of the next dungeon with possibly 1 making a dash for cash if it looks suitable (probably Okaluk, relying on stealth and a dodge(?) to survive and his Hammer to get where he wants to).

2 Hero turns, 1 OL turn, every hero exited, 2 coin piles and a Treasure Chest looted, the Boss dead, the Glyph activated, no heroes dead (well, maybe Landrec on max damage rolls from both Razorwings). Only requirement is in his first 5 cards the OL doesn't have a space trap, the door trap that ends the hero turn, or the Mimic Chest trap (in his first 2 cards - and another card worth enough threat so he can play it before he gets a turn). If the OL has a Rage card then he will probably get 2 CT for killing Landrec.
All rolls were made with a dice roller, the exception being that I didn't allow any Xs (ie rerolled that dice). I think Landrec's rolls might have been maximums, but that is not hard when ~ = +1 damage. Definitely the other rolls were not maximums.

...
Team 2

lilililililililililililii lillll dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dum-dumdumdum dididuuuum dididuuuum dididuuuum didi!

Your mission Jim- Karnon , should you choose to accept it, is to take your team through a dungeon level, collect the loot, kill the boss and escape in less than two turns. Your team is new, but capable.
Alongside yourself as team Leader (Chainmail, Dragontooth Hammer , Ring of Protection) you will have the Spiritwalker Andira Runehand with her Cone of Fire and Wizards Robe, that Able Warrior Brother Glyr with his chainmail, sword and shield, and, I'm sorry to say, the Eagle-Eye d wild man Ronan (leather, crossbow, shield, Ring of Quickness ). Don't let his annoying pet Pico get to you, he's a good man and will come in handy.
Each team member will have one item from the stores (Bronze Treasure), and one syringe of combat drugs (potion). Blah blah blah. This message will self distruct in 5, 4, 3, 2, fizzzzzt, poof.

...

Level 16
All right team, here is the plan. The bad guys have a Master Naga (8/4 Grapple) immediately in front of the Boss (16/4) blocking the way through. Immediately in front of her, bar a single space gap, and slightly closer to us is a Banespider (4W/1A). Another Banespider crouches in the rear closet beyond the Boss and a third spider sits in the southernmost alcove of the main room. 2 Sorcerers (5W2A) of evil repute cower in the westerly closet, sitting atop a glyph and a coin pile.
Glyr, you take out the two spiders nearest us. That will open the way for Ronan to push through to the Master Naga for Andira to use her spiritwalker. Ronan, use your crossbow to take out one of the Sorcerers at some stage. You might lend Pico to Andira as well, since she is going up against the tough stuff. Andira, you will strike through the Naga at the Boss with your Breathe weapon and I'll tidy up any leavings in reserve. Got it? Go!

Glyr: Advances (2+2MP) (from the rear of the party), spending 2 fatigue to get 2 attacks, 2 fatigue for MP and 1 for a fatigue potion. He then moves forward 6 spaces, spends 4 more fatigue and ends up between the two spiders, one space diagonally out from the southeast corner of the main room. His two attacks with a sword (RGbb) easily take care of the two spiders. He has 1 fatigue left and ended his movement on a ? - OL gains 2 threat.

Ronan: Advances (5MP) spending 1MP from his Ring of Quickness to give it to Andira and 3 fatigue for movement, 1 for a fatigue potion and 4 more to end on the Naga's southeast corner, picking up the side coin pile on the way, 2 spaces from both Sorcerers. He the shoots a Sorcerer with his crossbow (BGbb), getting 3 range, 4 damage and 3 surges. The surges becomes damage (1 spare) and with the 2 Pierce from Eagle eye the Sorcerer dies. He has no fatigue left and ended his movement on a ? - OL gains 2 threat and can play a chest trap (except he probably doesn't have one in his starting 2 cards).

Andira: Battles (0MP) (from the rear of the party) spending 3 fatigue for MP, 1 for a Fatigue Potion, 4 more for MP and 1MP from Ronan's Ring to move forward 8 spaces to the edge of the main room. She is now with 5 spaces of Ronan and uses her Spiritwalker ability to shoot the Cone of fire northward twice, through the Master Naga (back corner), the Boss and just clipping the spider skulking in the corner. Her first attack is WYbbbb with pierce 2 and does 9 damage pierce 2 - killing the spider and doing 7 wounds each to the boss and the Naga. Her second attack is a miss. She has no fatigue left.

Karnon: Readies with Leader (4MP) for 1 fatigue. Spends 2 fatigue for MP and 1 more for a fatigue potion. spends 3 fatigue to move beside the Naga against the wall and attacks with his DragonTooth Hammer (RGbbbbb Pierce2) for some damage, killing it. He spends his last fatigue to move beside the Boss and gives himself a Guard order. He has no fatigue left. Before the OL can draw cards or gain threat he will interrupt and attack the Boss for 12 Pierce 2 damage, 1 more than necessary to kill it.

There is one spawn space available, right in the corner of the end corridor beside the coin pile (so a single 1 space monster may be spawned) and only a single sorcerer left alive. The nearest hero is Karnon, 5 spaces away, so a Lone Medusa, Master Dark Priest or Master Beastman are the best bets. I'll assume the Master Beastman as most common and still hard hitting, so the Sorcerer will go second, focusing on Karnon and taking advantage of Command. Master Beastman rolls RYb+4 for 8 damage vs Karnons 4 Armour (1+Chainmail+ Ring of Protection). Karnon takes 4 wounds. The Sorcerer rolls WY+1(command)+3(Sorcery) for 8 damage and another 4 wounds to Karnon (who has 8 left). Because of the position of Ronan the Sorcerer can't shoot Karnon and get back to the glyph so he ends beside Karnon trying to generally get in the way.

Karnon: Advances (4MP) hitting the Master Beastman for 9 pierce 2 damage and killing it, then moving 4 spaces down the northern side of the back alcove to end one short of the coin pile

Glyr: Readies using his special 2MP and last fatigue to move to the ? beside the sorcerer and hits the Sorcerer with his Sword for 6 damage. He places a Guard on himself (if he'd killed the Sorcerer it would have been a Rest). Glyr ends his movement of a ? and the OL gains 3 threat. He hasn't used any Treasure item yet. Maybe he has the Bag of Holding?

Andira: Readies (4MP) moving 5 spaces (4MP + Ring of Quickness) to the southeast ?, then Rests. Heroes curse as Ol gains 2 more threat.

Ronan: Readies (5MP) moving on to the Glyph to activate it then 3 spaces diagonally southwest (through Andira) in order to prevent spawning and Rests.

There are no spawn spaces and no live monsters (Glyrr's Guard kills the last Sorcerer).

Turn three, heroes simply run for the portal - Ronan first, picking up the coin-pile on the way to the door and sending 2 fatigue to open the door. Glyr's 6 MP get him out, Andira's 9 get her out and Karnon can pick up the coinpile first and get out with a couple of MP to spare. A nicely timed space trap will leave Glyr or Andira to be mobbed by a spawn giving the OL 3-4 CT.

OL still only had 2 turns. Heroes cleaned up everything by the end of turn 2 (except 2 coin piles they can collect on the way out), including the 4 'end on' ? spots. Glyr hasn't used any item (treasure).

The same caveats apply - no space traps in the first 5 cards for the OL (this time 8, although a space trap in cards 6-8 will at best net the OL a single hero, still putting him behind the heroes for the week) and no turn ending door trap. A mimic trap might be useful enough and increase the chance of a kill, especially as the OL was fortunate in the heroes ? rolls and has threat to burn.

Thats 2 different dungeons with 2 different sets of heroes. Only the Leadership skill and the Ring of Quickness are in common. Swift has not yet been used, nor Skilled, nor the Staff of the Grave, nor any 5F/5M heroes.
Sure, every situation is an exact combination, but it by definition has to be. There are other combos that could work in place of the ones I've used.
Is a third 2-turn level necessary?

The heroes control the pace of play in dungeons. Smart heroes leave little or no opportunity, for the OL to do anything, unless he gets just the right cards in his starting hand.
2 turn early copper dungeons are achievable.

It is also worth noting that good heroes can get their first secret training before the OL can afford a Silver upgrade - though they probably risk conceding a Razed town to do so, so it is not an easy call.

Dashakan said:

I'm adding to the conversation by pointing out how wrong you are. Plus, I haven't muddied any waters. I'm citing facts which could be checked if you were so inclined to check back any number of pages.

The facts are that you keep saying that people are wrong and that they need to prove these things, but you are the only one adding stipulations. 2 turns in copper have been shown something like 4 times now, which is all the original statement entailed. Why you keep insisting that the example must not include certain things ("exact combinations", etc) is really beyond any of us, because no one said that it wouldn't include exact setups - YOU added that stipulation.

The only things I've "accused" you of are documented on pages 1-7 of this thread. Hardly accusatory, much more along the lines of historical recollection.

And for the record, if you really think I care about my meager post count, your sadly mistaken. I'm not even sure it's possible to check your post count on these boards. It's not prominently displayed and I haven't bothered looking for it. And there's no way I'm listening to someone like you telling me not to post or where to post. It's a public forum and I'll put forth my opinion where I like. You'll have to learn to deal with it, like an adult.

pinkymadigan said:

Why should people feel compelled to try and prove something with parameters that I set forth? It isn't my fault if they accept that and try to prove the impossible.

I think the point has been made that the best upgrade to purchase is silver monsters (either Beasts or Eldricht) because heroes who are playing well do their very best to avoid allowing the OL to upgrade to silver. Furthermore, heroes who are playing well can speedrun levels, and the best counter to that is to make the monsters they have to kill stronger.

Corbon and Remy have shown us how heroes can seek to control the game, preventing the OL from dominating. Dakashan's point seems to be that absolute dominance from the heroes is impossible, which is trivially true because otherwise the game wouldn't be playable.

Perhaps it is time to let this topic rest.

Thundercles said:

+1

Please.

All right, everyone, take it easy. Remember to attack the idea, not the person.

- Jeremy @ FFG