Best OL's upgrade to purchase?

By TheHunterBoy, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Posted at

Corbon said:

Dashakan said:

You can kill 2 in a turn, as someone pointed out (was it you?) it was hyperbole, there are plenty of turns I find I can kill 2 heroes, usually after the heroes have a particularly bad turn, or the turn I spawn silver Eldritch. (which if you recall is what prompted this whole conversation, that getting silver monsters early puts the heroes at a serious disadvantage). The OL should expect 2-3 kills per dungeon level, could be less if the the heroes have that magic combo that I mentioned (skills/items/feats with certain map) or could be more. However, the heroes would be smart to run from the get-go if the OL can reasonably expect to get more then 3 kills, that I agree with.

The main point I am conveying, is that while I have been accused of making wild claims (2 kills per turn, which was an exaggeration) some people here ACTUALLY think you can get off a dungeon floor in 1-2 turns, which is not mathematically possible. That is all.

This conversation basis has consistently shifted, mostly accidentally.

Mostly, those people (clear a level in 1-2 turns) were thinking Gold or late Silver levels, when it is not only possible, but easy (particularly when Telekinesis was part of the package, which it no longer is).
To a lesser extent, even by mid bronze, if the secret training is the first upgrade the heroes aim for, and they play smart at the start before the OL has upgraded a category to silver (ie a good solid blitz strategy), it may not be possibly to 'clear' a level in 1-2 turns, and continue, but it is possible in 3 turns (which is just 2 OL turns), and although that may still be uncommon it is quite easy to often clear a level of significant threats in 1-2 turns, while preventing spawning for the couple of turns longer it takes to finish off the level completely. It is rare to lose more than 1 hero doing this - the OL just doesn't have the resources to do more on a first level usually. Then you get a second level blitz risking just a single 2CT character to gather a Chest (either treasure(s) or a CT back anyway (and probably a potion or two which is also important), and cash) or/and a glyph. Astarra is a legend here and a first choice character every time for me. Running, with a power pot, she gets 19 MP to start with and only needs to get within 3 spaces to gather the glyph CT. Even Advancing she can using 14 MP and have an attack to clear a monster off the chest.

I have at home (on another pc where, unlike at work, I can access more than just rules pdfs) a sample dungeon level created just for you. I'll post it tonight if I get an opportunity to finish it. I randomly pulled #37, set up a starting party (quite a good one actually, a good draw of heroes and skills) and followed a step by step move. This, btw, is a starting hero party with no bronze treasures at all.
At the end of OL turn 1, the heroes lost 1 3CT hero and another was wounded, but the heroes were in a very good position. I haven't run through turn 2 yet, but I expect the heroes to clear all the monsters except the boss, have made enough progress on the boss so that turn 3 should see the boss dead and the heroes shouldn't lose anybody killed by the boss. There will be effectively no spawn spots at all. Finishing the level properly will take some time because three heroes can completely nullify spawns on this level (one is kirga, rendering the rubble block ineffective for spawning) so only traps will be a concern, yet it will take time to ferry the prisoners out. At the end of the level I expect the score to be 7-3, maybe 7-5/6 to the heroes, depending on how many traps the OL draws and how effective they are. And that is with no feats at all.

Now, I don't think anybody is arguing with the position that the OL become a lot more effective once he has a silver upgrade. However, by that stage the score should be around 25-25 and the heroes should probably be heading for secret training already (mostly to get fatigue upgrades). And 3-1 even from there is just silly. That means the heroes are losing 4-6 heroes (15CT) on each of the first and second levels (5CT per level for the heroes, minimum - and they should rarely do third levels unless they have aced the first two and/or need to keep map position for some reason).

In summary, I still think your (Dakashan) claims of 3-1 minimum CT proportions and 2 kills per turn have been hyperbole, from a world view possibly largely caused by inefficient hero play. Really, since it is the heroes who control the CT progression, it has to be bad hero play rather than good OL play (which does not in any way mean that good, or even great, OL play is not going on).
Some of the counter claims, while appearing to you to be hyperbole, have merely been claiming against the wrong standard, IMO. However, even against the wrong standard, they do have an underlying basis of principle.

Only one person was talking about anything beyond copper as far as I can tell, an indicator is the amount of fatigue listed in some examples (no secret master training.)

In your example there are a couple variables like which monster spawns and where. There is no way the heroes can cover all the LoS (including Kirgas ability) if the monsters were spawned in the best positions. This allows the OL to make a spawn, potentially kill another hero, and since the heroes have to actually walk the villagers out, they will either have to give up some LoS, or have one hero make 2 trips, which will give the OL that much more threat for the next floor, or the heroes flee. Also I doubt that with shop items the heroes can kill the leader that fast, he is a pretty nasty one. Also the potential for web on that map, combined with trap potential could cause LoS loss and an additional spawn.

Posted at

Dashakan said:

Only one person was talking about anything beyond copper as far as I can tell, an indicator is the amount of fatigue listed in some examples (no secret master training.)

In your example there are a couple variables like which monster spawns and where. There is no way the heroes can cover all the LoS (including Kirgas ability) if the monsters were spawned in the best positions. This allows the OL to make a spawn, potentially kill another hero, and since the heroes have to actually walk the villagers out, they will either have to give up some LoS, or have one hero make 2 trips, which will give the OL that much more threat for the next floor, or the heroes flee. Also I doubt that with shop items the heroes can kill the leader that fast, he is a pretty nasty one. Also the potential for web on that map, combined with trap potential could cause LoS loss and an additional spawn.

Please wait for the blow by blow example. Your statements are not entirely correct.
Without needing the blow by blow, just looking at the map you can see total LOS is possible with just 3 heroes - one in the side room/T, Kirga in the first room behind the block and a third hero either in the last room or in the doorway (can see all the room except the inner corners which are covered by Kirga's special). There are ways. They might need some inventiveness by the heroes, but there are ways.
And of course, there are a lot of variables in Monster choices and positioning. I simply picked the one I thought the best and positioned the monsters accordingly. The hero tactics follow from that and would vary for differing setups.

Admittedly, this level will take significant extra time due to needing to ferry out the villagers. So it is likely that the second level will merely be a dash for cash by Astarra and flee by everyone else or flee by all. Fleeing is very much an option, especially in copper.
But that was the level I randomly drew, so that was the level I stuck with for the example.

Posted at

Corbon said:

Dashakan said:

Only one person was talking about anything beyond copper as far as I can tell, an indicator is the amount of fatigue listed in some examples (no secret master training.)

In your example there are a couple variables like which monster spawns and where. There is no way the heroes can cover all the LoS (including Kirgas ability) if the monsters were spawned in the best positions. This allows the OL to make a spawn, potentially kill another hero, and since the heroes have to actually walk the villagers out, they will either have to give up some LoS, or have one hero make 2 trips, which will give the OL that much more threat for the next floor, or the heroes flee. Also I doubt that with shop items the heroes can kill the leader that fast, he is a pretty nasty one. Also the potential for web on that map, combined with trap potential could cause LoS loss and an additional spawn.

Please wait for the blow by blow example. Your statements are not entirely correct.
Without needing the blow by blow, just looking at the map you can see total LOS is possible with just 3 heroes - one in the side room/T, Kirga in the first room behind the block and a third hero either in the last room or in the doorway (can see all the room except the inner corners which are covered by Kirga's special). There are ways. They might need some inventiveness by the heroes, but there are ways.
And of course, there are a lot of variables in Monster choices and positioning. I simply picked the one I thought the best and positioned the monsters accordingly. The hero tactics follow from that and would vary for differing setups.

Admittedly, this level will take significant extra time due to needing to ferry out the villagers. So it is likely that the second level will merely be a dash for cash by Astarra and flee by everyone else or flee by all. Fleeing is very much an option, especially in copper.
But that was the level I randomly drew, so that was the level I stuck with for the example.

Oh, I know you can get LoS on that foor with only 3 people, but you can't get it after 1 turn, and probably not after 2, there will be monsters in the way, blocking the way into the "t-shaped" room or the room with the boss.

Posted at

Dashakan said:

Oh, I know you can get LoS on that foor with only 3 people, but you can't get it after 1 turn, and probably not after 2, there will be monsters in the way, blocking the way into the "t-shaped" room or the room with the boss.


Apologies, its going to take a bit longer for me to get the blow by blow up. Wife and sister-in-law changed plans last night and we got home at midnight. Now, this morning, I can't find my write-up on her computer, so I'll have to wait to ask her where she moved it (hopefully this evening).

Posted at

Dashakan said:

In your example there are a couple variables like which monster spawns and where. There is no way the heroes can cover all the LoS (including Kirgas ability) if the monsters were spawned in the best positions. This allows the OL to make a spawn, potentially kill another hero, and since the heroes have to actually walk the villagers out, they will either have to give up some LoS, or have one hero make 2 trips, which will give the OL that much more threat for the next floor, or the heroes flee. Also I doubt that with shop items the heroes can kill the leader that fast, he is a pretty nasty one. Also the potential for web on that map, combined with trap potential could cause LoS loss and an additional spawn.

To answer your specific points here (in advance so to speak), it is trivially easy to prevent any spawns except in the side room, even on turn 1. Between Kirga and a single hero in the open forward doorway, all other spawns spots are covered. Spawns in the side room are mostly unable to get out with a stunned spider and shut door blocking the way.
Probably the spider should not start right behind the side door - I guess that is an OL 'mistake' and an indication of my OL-ing incompetence but that is the way I set up at the start and then I formulated the hero plan after seeing the set up. I am sure that this sort of trivial mistake is far behind you and that is why your opponents heroes are always behind at least 3-1 in the CT count.
I also made a mistake in retreating the boss back into the alcove - it allowed Talia to pin her there so she could not get out due to her size. Actually I think I did that wrong as well, having the boss stand on the villagers (which I did not initially notice - which is why my earlier estimate of the final CT count only allowed for 2 villagers) would be illegal.
Ok, I screwed that bit up royally, sorry. Definitely have to give the OL the kill on Astarra at least, for 2 more CT than I have written below though more cash left for a potion instead of healingx2.
As for killing the Boss - She is a Master Banespider with 24 extra wounds but no extra armour (29/2). Talia with an axe averages 7-9 damage or thereabouts, so 4-5 decent attacks and maybe a weaker attack from somewhere else should take out the boss. With only WGbl dice the boss averages only 4.5 or so damage per attack, less armour, doubled for quick shot. Against a 4 armour hero like Talia that doesn't hurt that much, despite the poison and web. She also has to get up close since WGbl with decent damage (>4) means only 1-2 range.,

Ok, picks one at random...37.
Web of Lives. Minion Choice A (spiders to sit on stuff and block, Master Beastman for command, 2 skeles for potshots. 3 bane spiders in the side room, 3 blocking the front of the back room skele on the glyph, another 2 spaces from the red door 'protecting' the Master Beastman in the corner.
Starting party, starting OL (no monster or treachery upgrades).
Pulls a random hero party...
Eliam/Steelhorns/Mordrog (ugh) - Eliam* with Tiger tattoo, Leather, Axe , 2x Fatigue Potion
*Eliam is a fast alrounder that can start with an axe and graduate to magic weapons later, much more useful than another tank.
Glyr/Kerr/Astarra - Astarra with Prodigy, Mage Robes, Blinding Light, 2x Fatigue Potion
Kirga/Thorn/Mok - Kirga with Precision, Chainmail, Crossbow, Shield
Tahlia/Karnon/Hawthorne - Tahlia with Leadership, Chainmail, Axe, 2x Fatigue Potion, 1x Power Pot

Feats;
Kirga - ***** in the Armour (later from glyph, Shooting for Distance)
Talia - Killing blow (lfg, Follow Through)
Astarra - Sparks of Pain (lfg, Magi Madness)
Eliam - Transparent (lfg, Preventing Evil)

Heroes start with Kirga and Talia at the back, Astarra and Eliam up front.
Astarra goes first, Advancing, 5 spaces to the first door, 2 Fat to open it, shoots and stuns the spider at the door, 2 fatigue to the second door, chugs a pot, 2 fatigue to open the second door. and 1 more fatigue sideways to make space.
Eliam goes second, Advancing 6 spaces and 2 Fatigue to the first door and shuts it (with the stunned spider blocking things no other monster will be able to get through as well as open the door unless they have at least 5 Mv5, 6 if more than 1 space - so only a skeleton or Razorwing spawn in the OL's first 5 cards), 1 more fatigue forwards, 1 to chug the potion, 1 more to move to the lhs side of the open second door, and 3 fatigue to sweep, killing 2 spiders with his axe.
Kirga Readies, moving 3 spaces forward and 2 fatigue to sit behind the block. He has a Guard and can shoot through the block if necessary.
Talia Readies, moving forward 3 spaces and spending 2 fatigue to also be behind the block with a Guard order.

There are no spawn spots available except in the side room, and those monsters can't get out (see above). (Kirga is very handy for this, and a first choice almost every time).

OL's first 3 cards are Sorcerer's Circle, Gust of Wind and Aim. First draw is Explosive Door and Trapmaster.

OL has a Master Beastman, a spider, 2x skeleton and a Master Spider x2 (Quickshot). Talia will use her Guard movement to take out one of the skeletons (she would like to wait and take the Master Beastman but the skeletons will go after her to try and break the Guard and force her to take one of them out instead.
Kirga will take out a spider/skeleton with his crossbow, which may or may not take his last fatigue. That leaves Master Beastman, 1 skele/spider and 2x Master spider (Boss with Quickshot), which will probably take out Eliam (12W, 2Ar, 3CT) and damage Astarra (12W, 2/0Ar). Eliam dies with Webs from Boss as Master Beastman is saved until last in order to make full use of Astarra's no-armour once Eliam is a sure kill.

Hero turn 2 Talia spends her last fatigue to do a Leadership triple, Moving 2 spaces (and spending 1 MP to chug a fatigue pot), hitting the Master Beastman and later with her Guard moving forward onto the boss for a hit and also a block keeping the boss pinned in the back with no maneouver room and limited (no chance to shoot anyone else - Tahlia's 4 Armour mean that she is unlikely to take more than a couple of wounds from the Boss's quickshots and she can go toe-to-toe with the boss while preventing any spawning in the front front.
Astarra moves forward enough to trip the glyph activation, then back to open the door and stun the spider again, this time finishing right in front of the side door. Kirga shoots the remaining spider/skele from a Ready and maintains her anti-spawn station - she may even manage a Rest Order (if she misses it will be a guard order). Eliam Advances/Readies out if the glyph, ending beside Astarra blocking the side boor. He may or may not be able to get in an attack as he goes past a monster, depending on other hits/misses and monster positions.

At this stage the OL has seen just 5 cards and has 4 threat. The Boss has probaby been neutralised (if not finished off yet), the remaining monsters (except in the side room, which is probably quite stacked but still can't get out) have been cleared and there are no spawn spots available except possibly still in the side room. The only spawn cards he could have significantly used are Skeletons and Razorwings, approximately (43/46)^7 chance not to see those yet. As it happens the OL draws both Paralyzing Gas traps.

OL spends his 5/8 threat on spawning the Sorcerers, feeling that there won't be another opportunity and the heroes will probably try to clear the side room this turn.

Hero turn 3
Astarra opens the door on an Advance action, which promptly explodes (using up Trapmaster and a paralysing Gas), wounding Eliam and putting Astarra dangerously low in wounds. However she is able to kill the spider and retreat back into a safer corner of the first room. Eliam then advances and does a sweep attack killing 2-3 monsters in the confined space available (probably both Sorcerers, or a Sorcerer and a spider, possibly but unlikely all three, leaving only a single spider) and finishing in the intersection so no more spawning. Kirga stuffs around, probably resting. Talia spends 1 fatigue for a triple action, hitting the Boss once, and placing a dodge on Eliam if there is more than one monster left around him, a guard on herself if only 1.

OL draws skeles and Hordes of the Things but has nowhere to spawn. Boss Quickshots Talia for 3 damage and a couple of Webs. Eliam wears a spider attack for a few (2-3 max) poison damage or both spider and sorcerer but that won't be enough to kill him for sure, even with the damage from the exploding door.

Hero turn 4
Talia Battles the Boss, quite possibly killing it. She also probably loses one of the webs. Astarra Advances/Readies to the glyph, finishing off the Boss if necessary, Resting if not - alternatively she may have to spend a MP and an attack on a Sorcerer if one was remaining and had moved to almost be able to get to her. Kirga maintains her boring watch for spawns. Eliam is able to finish off the spider with an Advance and maintain teh no-spawn position.

From here, with the level cleared, and Astarra healing next turn (5), then returning to help ferry out the villagers/prisoners, only traps can really help the OL. Eliam will seize the treasure on turn 5, and still be in a position to block spawning. If the OL is lucky he might get Eliam with a trap or two. At least as likely, the OL will set up for the next level, saving cards/threat and/or playing a Power.
Heroes should come out of this dungeon level up by 9-3/6, but with only 1 chest worth of treasure and cash (on average, 1 treasure, 1 potion (Fatigue) and 250 coins, of which most will be spent at the temple.

At the start of the next level Astarra will probably do a glyph/treasure rush while the remaining heroes visit the temple (and maybe the market or apothecary if there is enough cash after Astarra runs.

If that is week 1 (assuming no encounter), the heroes probably come out 10-13CT (1 explore, 3 glyph maybe x2, 1 boss, 4 villagers) to 6-9CT (1 weekly, 1-2x Eliam, 1x Astarra on level 2) ahead, but with less cash and/or treasure than they would have hoped (this is a bad level to start on because heroes want treasure and cash more than CT early and this has extra CT available and less treasure/cash than usual).

Please don't anyone use the 'all special circumstances' argument. All of this was generated entirely as it would be in a real game. It is just an example. It certainly doesn't always work this way, but it can, and does, quite often work out that smart hero play and the way the cards fall leave few options available to an OL early on in dungeons.
There were also few misses (X), by either side. Which can be in start contrast on other occasions. I've had 3 consecutive Xs by a gold beastman spawn save a 4CT tank with 2 wounds left and I've had Aimed, power-potted last-shot-to-kill-the-boss hero attacks reroll Xs as Xs. I've watched an entire levels worth of monsters + a spawn all miss a dodging stealthed character, mostly without using the dodge! But on other days, like this run through, I've seen entire dungeons passed through without a single X.
You will also note that I didn't use any of the hero feats. In general, as a hero, I tend to use them only when their use is critical, prefering to save them when possible (particularly now Telekinesis is gone), especially for Lt fights.

Posted at

If anything, "special circumstances" are what make each play-through unique

Posted at

Thundercles said:

If anything, "special circumstances" are what make each play-through unique

I have to agree, there are very few times where a player is left with a completely crap character if they know what they are doing. Between the skill draw and three characters to choose from, each player should end up contributing something, leading to these "special circumstances", where the players clear levels like this.

Posted at

Corbon said:

Dashakan said:

In your example there are a couple variables like which monster spawns and where. There is no way the heroes can cover all the LoS (including Kirgas ability) if the monsters were spawned in the best positions. This allows the OL to make a spawn, potentially kill another hero, and since the heroes have to actually walk the villagers out, they will either have to give up some LoS, or have one hero make 2 trips, which will give the OL that much more threat for the next floor, or the heroes flee. Also I doubt that with shop items the heroes can kill the leader that fast, he is a pretty nasty one. Also the potential for web on that map, combined with trap potential could cause LoS loss and an additional spawn.

To answer your specific points here (in advance so to speak), it is trivially easy to prevent any spawns except in the side room, even on turn 1. Between Kirga and a single hero in the open forward doorway, all other spawns spots are covered. Spawns in the side room are mostly unable to get out with a stunned spider and shut door blocking the way.
Probably the spider should not start right behind the side door - I guess that is an OL 'mistake' and an indication of my OL-ing incompetence but that is the way I set up at the start and then I formulated the hero plan after seeing the set up. I am sure that this sort of trivial mistake is far behind you and that is why your opponents heroes are always behind at least 3-1 in the CT count.
I also made a mistake in retreating the boss back into the alcove - it allowed Talia to pin her there so she could not get out due to her size. Actually I think I did that wrong as well, having the boss stand on the villagers (which I did not initially notice - which is why my earlier estimate of the final CT count only allowed for 2 villagers) would be illegal.
Ok, I screwed that bit up royally, sorry. Definitely have to give the OL the kill on Astarra at least, for 2 more CT than I have written below though more cash left for a potion instead of healingx2.
As for killing the Boss - She is a Master Banespider with 24 extra wounds but no extra armour (29/2). Talia with an axe averages 7-9 damage or thereabouts, so 4-5 decent attacks and maybe a weaker attack from somewhere else should take out the boss. With only WGbl dice the boss averages only 4.5 or so damage per attack, less armour, doubled for quick shot. Against a 4 armour hero like Talia that doesn't hurt that much, despite the poison and web. She also has to get up close since WGbl with decent damage (>4) means only 1-2 range.,

Ok, picks one at random...37.
Web of Lives. Minion Choice A (spiders to sit on stuff and block, Master Beastman for command, 2 skeles for potshots. 3 bane spiders in the side room, 3 blocking the front of the back room skele on the glyph, another 2 spaces from the red door 'protecting' the Master Beastman in the corner.
Starting party, starting OL (no monster or treachery upgrades).
Pulls a random hero party...
Eliam/Steelhorns/Mordrog (ugh) - Eliam* with Tiger tattoo, Leather, Axe , 2x Fatigue Potion
*Eliam is a fast alrounder that can start with an axe and graduate to magic weapons later, much more useful than another tank.
Glyr/Kerr/Astarra - Astarra with Prodigy, Mage Robes, Blinding Light, 2x Fatigue Potion
Kirga/Thorn/Mok - Kirga with Precision, Chainmail, Crossbow, Shield
Tahlia/Karnon/Hawthorne - Tahlia with Leadership, Chainmail, Axe, 2x Fatigue Potion, 1x Power Pot

Feats;
Kirga - ***** in the Armour (later from glyph, Shooting for Distance)
Talia - Killing blow (lfg, Follow Through)
Astarra - Sparks of Pain (lfg, Magi Madness)
Eliam - Transparent (lfg, Preventing Evil)

Heroes start with Kirga and Talia at the back, Astarra and Eliam up front.
Astarra goes first, Advancing, 5 spaces to the first door, 2 Fat to open it, shoots and stuns the spider at the door, 2 fatigue to the second door, chugs a pot, 2 fatigue to open the second door. and 1 more fatigue sideways to make space.
Eliam goes second, Advancing 6 spaces and 2 Fatigue to the first door and shuts it (with the stunned spider blocking things no other monster will be able to get through as well as open the door unless they have at least 5 Mv5, 6 if more than 1 space - so only a skeleton or Razorwing spawn in the OL's first 5 cards), 1 more fatigue forwards, 1 to chug the potion, 1 more to move to the lhs side of the open second door, and 3 fatigue to sweep, killing 2 spiders with his axe.
Kirga Readies, moving 3 spaces forward and 2 fatigue to sit behind the block. He has a Guard and can shoot through the block if necessary.
Talia Readies, moving forward 3 spaces and spending 2 fatigue to also be behind the block with a Guard order.

There are no spawn spots available except in the side room, and those monsters can't get out (see above). (Kirga is very handy for this, and a first choice almost every time).

OL's first 3 cards are Sorcerer's Circle, Gust of Wind and Aim. First draw is Explosive Door and Trapmaster.

OL has a Master Beastman, a spider, 2x skeleton and a Master Spider x2 (Quickshot). Talia will use her Guard movement to take out one of the skeletons (she would like to wait and take the Master Beastman but the skeletons will go after her to try and break the Guard and force her to take one of them out instead.
Kirga will take out a spider/skeleton with his crossbow, which may or may not take his last fatigue. That leaves Master Beastman, 1 skele/spider and 2x Master spider (Boss with Quickshot), which will probably take out Eliam (12W, 2Ar, 3CT) and damage Astarra (12W, 2/0Ar). Eliam dies with Webs from Boss as Master Beastman is saved until last in order to make full use of Astarra's no-armour once Eliam is a sure kill.

Hero turn 2 Talia spends her last fatigue to do a Leadership triple, Moving 2 spaces (and spending 1 MP to chug a fatigue pot), hitting the Master Beastman and later with her Guard moving forward onto the boss for a hit and also a block keeping the boss pinned in the back with no maneouver room and limited (no chance to shoot anyone else - Tahlia's 4 Armour mean that she is unlikely to take more than a couple of wounds from the Boss's quickshots and she can go toe-to-toe with the boss while preventing any spawning in the front front.
Astarra moves forward enough to trip the glyph activation, then back to open the door and stun the spider again, this time finishing right in front of the side door. Kirga shoots the remaining spider/skele from a Ready and maintains her anti-spawn station - she may even manage a Rest Order (if she misses it will be a guard order). Eliam Advances/Readies out if the glyph, ending beside Astarra blocking the side boor. He may or may not be able to get in an attack as he goes past a monster, depending on other hits/misses and monster positions.

At this stage the OL has seen just 5 cards and has 4 threat. The Boss has probaby been neutralised (if not finished off yet), the remaining monsters (except in the side room, which is probably quite stacked but still can't get out) have been cleared and there are no spawn spots available except possibly still in the side room. The only spawn cards he could have significantly used are Skeletons and Razorwings, approximately (43/46)^7 chance not to see those yet. As it happens the OL draws both Paralyzing Gas traps.

OL spends his 5/8 threat on spawning the Sorcerers, feeling that there won't be another opportunity and the heroes will probably try to clear the side room this turn.

Hero turn 3
Astarra opens the door on an Advance action, which promptly explodes (using up Trapmaster and a paralysing Gas), wounding Eliam and putting Astarra dangerously low in wounds. However she is able to kill the spider and retreat back into a safer corner of the first room. Eliam then advances and does a sweep attack killing 2-3 monsters in the confined space available (probably both Sorcerers, or a Sorcerer and a spider, possibly but unlikely all three, leaving only a single spider) and finishing in the intersection so no more spawning. Kirga stuffs around, probably resting. Talia spends 1 fatigue for a triple action, hitting the Boss once, and placing a dodge on Eliam if there is more than one monster left around him, a guard on herself if only 1.

OL draws skeles and Hordes of the Things but has nowhere to spawn. Boss Quickshots Talia for 3 damage and a couple of Webs. Eliam wears a spider attack for a few (2-3 max) poison damage or both spider and sorcerer but that won't be enough to kill him for sure, even with the damage from the exploding door.

Hero turn 4
Talia Battles the Boss, quite possibly killing it. She also probably loses one of the webs. Astarra Advances/Readies to the glyph, finishing off the Boss if necessary, Resting if not - alternatively she may have to spend a MP and an attack on a Sorcerer if one was remaining and had moved to almost be able to get to her. Kirga maintains her boring watch for spawns. Eliam is able to finish off the spider with an Advance and maintain teh no-spawn position.

From here, with the level cleared, and Astarra healing next turn (5), then returning to help ferry out the villagers/prisoners, only traps can really help the OL. Eliam will seize the treasure on turn 5, and still be in a position to block spawning. If the OL is lucky he might get Eliam with a trap or two. At least as likely, the OL will set up for the next level, saving cards/threat and/or playing a Power.
Heroes should come out of this dungeon level up by 9-3/6, but with only 1 chest worth of treasure and cash (on average, 1 treasure, 1 potion (Fatigue) and 250 coins, of which most will be spent at the temple.

At the start of the next level Astarra will probably do a glyph/treasure rush while the remaining heroes visit the temple (and maybe the market or apothecary if there is enough cash after Astarra runs.

If that is week 1 (assuming no encounter), the heroes probably come out 10-13CT (1 explore, 3 glyph maybe x2, 1 boss, 4 villagers) to 6-9CT (1 weekly, 1-2x Eliam, 1x Astarra on level 2) ahead, but with less cash and/or treasure than they would have hoped (this is a bad level to start on because heroes want treasure and cash more than CT early and this has extra CT available and less treasure/cash than usual).

Please don't anyone use the 'all special circumstances' argument. All of this was generated entirely as it would be in a real game. It is just an example. It certainly doesn't always work this way, but it can, and does, quite often work out that smart hero play and the way the cards fall leave few options available to an OL early on in dungeons.
There were also few misses (X), by either side. Which can be in start contrast on other occasions. I've had 3 consecutive Xs by a gold beastman spawn save a 4CT tank with 2 wounds left and I've had Aimed, power-potted last-shot-to-kill-the-boss hero attacks reroll Xs as Xs. I've watched an entire levels worth of monsters + a spawn all miss a dodging stealthed character, mostly without using the dodge! But on other days, like this run through, I've seen entire dungeons passed through without a single X.
You will also note that I didn't use any of the hero feats. In general, as a hero, I tend to use them only when their use is critical, prefering to save them when possible (particularly now Telekinesis is gone), especially for Lt fights.

I must be honest. I stopped reading when you said that the master had 0 extra armor. That master has 24 extra wounds, 3 extra armor, and quickshot. How can you try and prove something if you can't read the card correctly?

Posted at

pinkymadigan said:

Thundercles said:

If anything, "special circumstances" are what make each play-through unique

I have to agree, there are very few times where a player is left with a completely crap character if they know what they are doing. Between the skill draw and three characters to choose from, each player should end up contributing something, leading to these "special circumstances", where the players clear levels like this.

Of course this is what makes the game fun and unique. The main thing I have pointed out, and yet to have been proven wrong on, is that without an EXACT item/skill/feat/map/hero setup it is IMPOSSIBLE to get through a floor in 1 or even 2 turns. The only possible exception is the Throne Room, and even that is debatable as you would leave a chest behind.

Posted at

I agree with Granor, Corbon, Big Remy, and Thundercles...who I happen to know to be some of the most knowledgeable players on this forum.

It will not happen every time that heroes will go through a dungeon quickly, but that is why they must choose their battles. A long time spent in the dungeon always means more kills for the OL, whose ally is time. More kills=more cp/xp=more upgrades and sooner.

One of the biggest mistakes the heroes made in our first campaign was going all the way through their first dungeon and giving me just enough xp to get silver upgrades...and those were just slow, meleeing humanoids since I went with the beastman lord. It still made life tougher for them and kept it that way because I had a big advantage.

In our recent campaign against the sorcerer king (who I agree is very tough), we have silhouette with acrobat. We got everyone a fatigue upgrade and she also had the silver boots that give +2 movement. In mid silver, with only eldritch upgraded, but to gold and a LOT of treachery (merick had been harrassing us with his freshly gold minions and our still in copper equipment), we went into a dungeon.

1st level-the summoning.

No boss at first and no rune-locked door. Silhouette ran, used a potion, and got through a regular demon (aura damage taken) to get out the door first thing. We knew we weren't going to handle a master demon at gold level-too much fear/armor. Two of our other guys got the glyphs/treasure, and our last guy just glyphed out. After the OL turn we were wounded, but with no losses. One of the guys at the glyphs glyphed to the temple, and the other played a carried by air so he could open the two chests that now no longer had monsters standing on them. Having wind-pacted a trap out of the ol's hand, there was a limited chance for a trap/space, and most trap/chests would've at least given us one treasure draw before our mage died...alas, a crushing block was one of the 2 cards drawn on the ol's first turn. Our mage died, everyone else was in town/in the portal...acceptable sacrifice of the chests vs. way too many turns...begin level 2-ol discards rest of hand to avoid wind pact...mostly for his own peace of mind. OL had no spawn cards to play during his one turn in this level.

2nd level-throwing stones. Giants are copper. First turn we send our taunting tank out to check the bone pile-enhancement-nothing. Mage battles with fatigue and a breath rune to kill 2 beastmen and a skeley (1 beastman in a second location). Our other two hit a couple more beastmen leaving the boss and 2 skeleys. OL spawns skeleys.. He moves the boss and throws a rubble at our tank--lucky roll gets him his 2nd kill of the dungeon. Next turn our mage switches to his pierce rune and with a little help from rapid-firing silhouette takes out the boss. We spend the rest of the turn picking up treasure and taking out one of the skeleys (on the chest). Tank returns to take out new skeleys and be able to taunt them. OL spawns razorwings and does some damage, maybe one more kill. Next turn we leave through doors/portals. OL has had 3 turns thus far, played a couple of traps and spent enough threat that he is back to 7 threat and 1 card that will be windpacted to get him up to 8. He has no power cards in play. 3rd level will be like start of a new dungeon. OL has had normal luck with dice...ours has been good.

3rd level. Reflections.

OL decides to go for the master chaos beast (gold), which only comes with a beastman and the two bosses. He puts it in front of the manticore. We use some fatigue and battle with our mage and his pierce rune as well as our tank with his bleed weapon. We get the thing down to two with a couple of bleeds on it, much to the chagrin of the ol. Silhouette runs over and rapid fires the skeley down to almost dead. Our other ranger finishes it off and it fails it's 1/3 roll to not be dead. Next turn see some attacks from some spawned somethings and the copper manticore. Very little damage taken, especially with taunt and the chaos beast bleeds to death. Nowhere to run for the manticore, so we kill it and head towards the door. Another spawn cannot be afforded, but the door gets blocked by what was on the board--still no kills. We get through one of the mobs and everyone exits or glyphs out in 3 turns total.

***************

We had 3 levels. 1 was 1 turn for the OL and 2 for us. (I think we shopped/potioned with the guy in town in that first level). The next was like 3 for us and 2 for him. The third was 3 for us and 2 for him. I think the biggest mistake the OL made was not realizing that we could kill his master chaos beast as easily as we were able to. Looking at the rest of the choices for that level, though...I would say there wasn't much better available...the golem might've been harder to kill, but would've been less of a threat because it's damage was low and we could put our taunting tank next to it, blocking its path from everyone else. Maybe he could've rolled better. The fact of the matter is we missed a couple of treasure chests in one level, and still came out of there with something like 4500 gold (6 treasure piles, 1 boss for 100, 2 for 250 each, 2 chests, pickpocket and maybe 23 CP (4 glyphs, one boss worth 2, two worth 4, one chest with no treasure) and the OL had 5 turns to do something about it. I think he had 11 conquest because we have high cp heroes...this was generally lucky for him and showed a lot of skill...and yet we still housed him in that dungeon.

This was silver and not copper, but we've had similar dungeons/levels even in mid-copper. In any case, limiting the OL to 1, 2, or even 3 turns in a level happens, happens more often than one might think, and should be what the heroes are trying to make happen every time they start a level if they want any chance.

Posted at

Dashakan said:

pinkymadigan said:

Thundercles said:

If anything, "special circumstances" are what make each play-through unique

I have to agree, there are very few times where a player is left with a completely crap character if they know what they are doing. Between the skill draw and three characters to choose from, each player should end up contributing something, leading to these "special circumstances", where the players clear levels like this.

Of course this is what makes the game fun and unique. The main thing I have pointed out, and yet to have been proven wrong on, is that without an EXACT item/skill/feat/map/hero setup it is IMPOSSIBLE to get through a floor in 1 or even 2 turns. The only possible exception is the Throne Room, and even that is debatable as you would leave a chest behind.

LOL what? You want someone to prove that is without an exact setup its impossible to get through a floor in one or two turns? No one's going to take the time to go over every single circumstance and combo out there, obviously there are situations where you'll be stumped for a few turns extra, but most of the time three/four turns is reasonable, assuming the heroes didn't get craptastic draws and have spent opening gold reasonably.

Really, trying to take something about one/two turns at face value and holding someone to that is akin to holding your feet to the fire on 2-3 hero kills a turn.

Get over yourself and stop trolling.

Posted at

I like the mathmatically impossible comment the best. I've almost got the writeup for how in Cooper its possible to do Dungeon Level 1 in two turns. Granted, tons of luck involved but its not outside the realm of possibity.

Posted at

pinkymadigan said:

Dashakan said:

pinkymadigan said:

Thundercles said:

If anything, "special circumstances" are what make each play-through unique

I have to agree, there are very few times where a player is left with a completely crap character if they know what they are doing. Between the skill draw and three characters to choose from, each player should end up contributing something, leading to these "special circumstances", where the players clear levels like this.

Of course this is what makes the game fun and unique. The main thing I have pointed out, and yet to have been proven wrong on, is that without an EXACT item/skill/feat/map/hero setup it is IMPOSSIBLE to get through a floor in 1 or even 2 turns. The only possible exception is the Throne Room, and even that is debatable as you would leave a chest behind.

LOL what? You want someone to prove that is without an exact setup its impossible to get through a floor in one or two turns? No one's going to take the time to go over every single circumstance and combo out there, obviously there are situations where you'll be stumped for a few turns extra, but most of the time three/four turns is reasonable, assuming the heroes didn't get craptastic draws and have spent opening gold reasonably.

Really, trying to take something about one/two turns at face value and holding someone to that is akin to holding your feet to the fire on 2-3 hero kills a turn.

Get over yourself and stop trolling.

I'm not trolling you moron, I made a "claim" that I clearly said was hyperbole, I never tried to back it up. Other people made a "claim" that they then DID try to back up. Of course, they failed, since their claim was actually impossible. Go back and read the entire thread.

Posted at

Dashakan said:

It's not so much about not being able to win in the Avatar fight as your heroes having a crappy time playing because they die non-stop. I didn't buy silver monsters until well into copper (120+ conquest) and my heroes already complain nonstop about how they die. And I have to agree, on a decent map with a couple Eldritch spawns I can kill 2 heroes per turn pretty easily.

The bottom line is that the OL has very little chance in the Avatar fight without seriously modded rules regarding that fight. The point is to make the game fun for everyone, and having to fight silver monsters with basic shop items is really tough, and can make the game not fun. Same reason I don't use crushing blow, except VERY sparingly (read: Staff of the Grave). No better way to take all the fun out of a game then breaking everyones treasure the minute they get it.

I note how this is clearly marked as hyperbole.

Posted at

Dashakan said:

I'm not trolling you moron, I made a "claim" that I clearly said was hyperbole, I never tried to back it up. Other people made a "claim" that they then DID try to back up. Of course, they failed, since their claim was actually impossible. Go back and read the entire thread.

Maybe not deliberately, but with your attitude and inconsistancy, even if you don't realise it, it certainly appears that way to many.

The main problem is that you apply standards to others that you don't hold yourself to. While your 'claims' freely move (usually in a downward direction) everyone else is held to a rigid standard, often not what they were actually discussing (sometimes their own fault for not reading further back closely, sometimes your for moving the goalposts).
Your answer above is an example. Your initial claims were shot down by others as hyperbole, not yourself. Admitting it was hyperbole might technically make your statement above accurate, but the tone of the statement makes it sound like you never really made any ridiculous claims.

Anyway, as to my own significant error.
Yes, Mea Culpa, I screwed up reading the card. One person trying to sort everything for both sides inevitably leads to mistakes and that was a biggie which changes the whole situation.
As you said, it is a real tough level for the heroes with a nasty boss and slow situation due to needing to get the prisoners out.
All it really changes though (but that significantly), is the amount of attacks required to take out the boss. Inevitably that means using up the Power pot as well. I went and rolled some dice and drew a card for the treasure, ending up with a power pot, cash and the Daze axe (treasure cache card), another potion (surge, probably another power pot, used up on the boss) and some gold (300-350?).
Anyway, I bolloxed it up and really can't be bothered redoing it for you. You can stay in your world, where heroes get beaten 3-1 in bronze level, we'll stay in ours where heroes can do better if they are smart enough and plan well enough.

Posted at

Dashakan said:

I'm not trolling you moron, I made a "claim" that I clearly said was hyperbole, I never tried to back it up. Other people made a "claim" that they then DID try to back up. Of course, they failed, since their claim was actually impossible. Go back and read the entire thread.

So do you see the irony in using harsh words against someone calling you a troll? 'Cause I can't stop laughing. partido_risa.gif

EDIT: Just so I'm not implying anything, I mean that you just got trolled... lengua.gif

Posted at

Okay, mega post coming

I had to rise to "mathmatically impossible" challenge, so here it is.

How to Run a Dungeon Level in 2 Turns in Copper .

Caveats: The OL gets a horrible starting hand for cards, having no spawns and no traps. Unlikely, but I've had it happen to me before. And the OL does play a little stupid, but its not outside the realm of possibility for it happen. All that was required was for me to show that a level could be done in Copper in two turns. No other "ground rules" were set. This is also the first level of a dungeon, and is taking place in late Copper. Again, nothing was said about when it had to be, just that it was in Copper.

Dungeon Level 1: Collapsed Columns
Campaign Level: late Copper
OL Upgrades: Humanoids at Silver, rest at Copper

Hero Party:
Tahlia (16/5/2/3) with Unmovable (+2 Fatigue upgrade, Melee dice Silver and 3 black)
Nanok (16/6/*/4) with Weapon Mastery (+2 Fatigue upgrade; Melee dice Silver and 3 black)
Runewitch Astarra (12/7/0/5) with Prodigy (+2 Fatigue upgrade; Wizardry dice Silver and 3 black)
Silhouette with Acrobat (12/7/1/5)(+2 Fatigue upgrade; Ranged dice Silver and 3 black)

Only equipment that is relevant to the example is:
RWA has the Ring of Quickness (1 extra MP), Mana Weave (1 free surge) and Staff of the Grave (ignores Undying, 2 surges is +3 damage or +3 range), a Power potion and a Fatigue potion and Leather Armor

Silhouette has Archer's Charm, Leather Armor and the Dawrven Fire Bombs, plus 2 Fatigue potions.

The OL takes Option D since he has Humanoids upgraded: 4 Skeletons, 1 Deep Elf and 1 Dark Priest. OL places two skeletons in each of the first two dead end hallways. Put the Deep Elf behind the northern part of the rubble block next to glyph. Places Dark Priest behind the northern rubble block in the middle of the 6x6 room.

Heroes Turn 1:
Heros are set up with RWA on the glyph, Silhoutte to the right, Tahlia bottom right, Nanok bottom left.

Silhoutte Runs (10 MPs). Moves forward 3 spaces to exit the first section, moves an additional 7 with movement (acrobats past the nothern part of the 2 space rubble) and 2 spaces with Fatigue (5 fatigue left) which places her on the glyph. She then spends an additional 4 fatigue to go pick up the gold pile (1 fatigue left). She drinks one of her Fatigue potions (back to 7 fatigue). Spends 4 fatigue to move onto the chest (3 left), spends an additional 2 to open it (1 left). Spends one to move northwest one space to be behind the rubble.

RWA returns to Tamilir.

Tahlia declares a Dodge and doesn't move. Nanok moves 1 space Northeast and declares a Dodge.

OL's Turn 1 :
OL has no spawn cards or trap cards in his hand, discards all his junk cards for threat. (Yes I know its unlikely)

Skeletons in turn move forward to fire at Nanok, then move back (I used the online dice roller for this part).
S1: 4 damage, 1 Pierce = 1 wound; Nanok Dodges; S1 misses
S2: Misses
S3: 4 damage, 1 Pierce = 1 wound; Nanok Dodges; 2 Damage, Pierce 1 = no wounds
S4: 2 damage, 1 Pierce = 0 wounds, no Dodge

Dark Priest moves down one space, attacks Silhoutte, then moves away to get away from her.
DP: 5 Damage vs 2 Armor = 3 wounds (Silhoutte now has 9 wounds).

Deep Elf goes for Silhoutte moving 2 spaces west
DE: 3 damage, Pierce 3 = 3 wounds (Silhoutte now has 6 wounds).
Deep Elf then moves north 2 spaces to get behind the rubble.

The Level leader moves down 2 spaces and uses Crack Shot to shot Silhoutte
Argos: Misses, but his attack is Aimed, so he rerolls the Blue but keeps the Green (1 and 2 damage) and Black (enchancement). Rolls a 4 with a surge on the Blue.
Argos: 3 damage, Pierce 2 = 3 wounds (Silhoutte now has 3 wounds).
Argos then moves east, northeast then north with his remaining 3 movement.

Heroes Turn 2:
RWA spends the 1 MP from the Ring to come in through the newly activated glyph. She declares an Advance. Spends 1 MP to drink a Power Potion (4 MP left). Moves 4 spaces (east, northeast, north, north and north again with a fatigue; 0 movement left, 6 fatigue left). Shoots at the level boss using Staff of the Grave with a Power Potion. At this point she is 1 space away from the Level Boss so she needs Range 2 to hit

RWA upgrades her dice the following: White, Green, Silver, Silver (1 upgrade), Gold (2 upgrades), Gold (2 upgrades)
RWA rolls: 2 range, 3 surges, 12 damage total. Combined with Mana Weave and Prodigy it becomes 2 range, 6 surges and 12 damage. She spends 1 fatigue (5 left) to roll a black dice to get one more surge, but gets an enchancement (1 damage) to bring the damage total to 13 damage.

RWA spend all the surges on damage (2 surges = +3 damage) for +9 damage. Total is now 2 range, 0 surges, and 22 damage.

Argos has 15 wounds and 3 armor according to the level card. 22 damage is applied. Argos takes 19 wounds and dies, since Staff of the Grave ignores Undying. The Heroes get the Red Rune Key.

RWA has 0 MP left and 5 fatigue left. She spends 2 fatigue (3 left) to move next to the door. She then spends 2 fatigue (1 left) to open the door, and 1 fatigue (0 left) to enter the portal.

Silhoutee declares a Run action (10 movement points, with 0 fatigue left.) Spends 7 to move to the remaining coin pile to pick it up. Spends 2 more to move closer to the portal. Spends remaining MP to drink her last fatigue potion (back to 7 fatigue). She uses 5 fatigue to move 5 spaces and gets into the portal.

Tahlia and Nanok both start their turns next to the glyph and return to town.

Heroes advance to the next level.

That's two turns, both gold piles and the chest grabbed, level boss killed and everyone gone through either a portal or a glyph.

All in Copper level of the campaign.

Its mathmatically possible (unless I messed up somewhere I'm not aware of). Yes, its unlikely due to the poor luck of the OL but it certainly not impossibe.

Posted at

I just realized Argos movement should read:

"Argos then moves west, northwest then north with his remaining 3 movement."

Posted at

Ok, you said that the OL was playing a little stupid, but not placing a monster on the chest is ridiculous, because it should be standard procedure.

Even the Acrobat is not allowed to open the chest while the critter is still on it, making at least one attack necessary to remove the monster from the chest (either via killing it or by using a Knockback weapon). This will make a kill of at least the "runner" a lot more likely, slowing down the heroes. Without special circumstances.

Posted at

Parathion said:

Ok, you said that the OL was playing a little stupid, but not placing a monster on the chest is ridiculous, because it should be standard procedure.

Even the Acrobat is not allowed to open the chest while the critter is still on it, making at least one attack necessary to remove the monster from the chest (either via killing it or by using a Knockback weapon). This will make a kill of at least the "runner" a lot more likely, slowing down the heroes. Without special circumstances.

I will give you that, and I agree but fortunately that doesn't matter. I originally said it was possible to get through a dungeon in 2 turns in Copper. I was told that its was "ridiculous" and "mathmatically impossible". Even if I had opted to put a monster on the chest, the only one Silhoutte might not have killed in one turn was the Deep Elf. Granted Silhoutte wasn't dead at the start of the second turn, if RWA turn stays the same Silhoutte could have Advanced and drank a fatigue potion, attacked while standing next to the Deep Elf to bypass Shadowcloak, and I think still been able to have enough movement and Fatigue to open the chest and get out the portal so they would have missed the second gold pile but still could have finished the level on an Advance she'd have 4 MP and 7 fatigue after the potion, so 11 MPs) . Actually, I think even if she had been killed, she could have come in from town, Battled the Deep Elf by moving with Fatigue, got the chest, drank a potion and made it out with again missing the second gold pile.

Yes, I will grant you that the entire scenario requires some luck, good for the Heroes and bad for the OL, and for the OL to be a little dumb. This does not however negate the fact that you can do that dungeon level, in Copper, in two turns which was claimed to be "mathmatically impossible".

Posted at

Err, if that´s what you wanted to proof, then fine. Simply don´t activate any monsters and don´t place them anywhere in the path of the heros.

Silhouette couldn´t have run if anything was standing on the chest, and I doubt she would have had enough MP to perform all she did in your example when advancing.

I thought you wanted to use an example that can happen with some probability, yet I didn´t factor in exceeding OL stupidity - my fault.

Posted at

Parathion said:

Err, if that´s what you wanted to proof, then fine. Simply don´t activate any monsters and don´t place them anywhere in the path of the heros.

Silhouette couldn´t have run if anything was standing on the chest, and I doubt she would have had enough MP to perform all she did in your example.

I thought you wanted to use an example that can happen with some probability, yet I didn´t factor in exceeding OL stupidity - my fault.

I was editing my responses to cover this as you put yous in. Look at my edited response, but even if something was on the chest:

"Even if I had opted to put a monster on the chest, the only one Silhoutte might not have killed in one turn was the Deep Elf. Granted Silhoutte wasn't dead at the start of the second turn, if RWA turn stays the same Silhoutte could have Advanced and drank a fatigue potion, attacked while standing next to the Deep Elf to bypass Shadowcloak, and I think still been able to have enough movement and Fatigue to open the chest and get out the portal so they would have missed the second gold pile but still could have finished the level on an Advance she'd have 4 MP and 7 fatigue after the potion, so 11 MPs) . Actually, I think even if she had been killed, she could have come in from town, Battled the Deep Elf by moving with Fatigue, got the chest, drank a potion and made it out with again missing the second gold pile."

Again, not an ideal play by the OL, possibly against a new OL, but not impossible . Sorry the example didn't meet some imaginary probability/OL tactics standard that I wasn't aware was required of me for this example..

Posted at

Granted, it would work with an Advance also in this case due to the fatigue upgrade.

Requirements:

1 - Small dungeon level with glyph and chest close together

2 - Combination of Fatigue upgrades AND Acrobat

3 - Extreme OL stupidity in combination with a bad starting hand AND bad first draw

Take one of those away and it won´t work out any longer in most cases.

Posted at

Parathion said:

Granted, it would work with an Advance also in this case due to the fatigue upgrade.

Requirements:

1 - Small dungeon level with glyph and chest close together

2 - Combination of Fatigue upgrades AND Acrobat

3 - Extreme OL stupidity in combination with a bad starting hand AND bad first draw

Take one of those away and it won´t work out any longer in most cases.

Fully agree with you. Fortunately for me, I wasn't given any list like that to start, I just had to respond to the "mathmatically impossible" part.

I do realize how unlikely this is, but its not outside the realm of happening. I just posted it to refute the "impossible" claim, which was wrong.

Posted at

Big Remy said:

Parathion said:

Granted, it would work with an Advance also in this case due to the fatigue upgrade.

Requirements:

1 - Small dungeon level with glyph and chest close together

2 - Combination of Fatigue upgrades AND Acrobat

3 - Extreme OL stupidity in combination with a bad starting hand AND bad first draw

Take one of those away and it won´t work out any longer in most cases.

Fully agree with you. Fortunately for me, I wasn't given any list like that to start, I just had to respond to the "mathmatically impossible" part.

I do realize how unlikely this is, but its not outside the realm of happening. I just posted it to refute the "impossible" claim, which was wrong.

First off, if you bothered to read the whole thread (which I know you didn't, since you missed where I clearly said my original "claim" was hyperbole) you would know the MATH I referred to was before Secret Master training. In other words, a maximum of 19 movement.

Also in your scenario, the OL grossly misplaced AND misplayed the monsters (attacking Nanok, really?) Plus you needed a SUPER specific setup: Silhouette (one of if not best mover in the game), Ring of Quickness, Mana Weave, Staff of the Grave, Prodigy, Acrobat, the exact potions you needed, the list goes on.

Of course if you custom tailor stupid OL play with an EXACT set of items/skills/heroes you can make anything possible. Read the entire thread instead of latching onto one phrase. I have clearly stated my posittion MANY times, and your little scenario does not come close to refuting it.