Dashakan said:

What if the heroes get off the dungeon floor in 3 turns (that means the OL gets 2 turns)? Are you saying not killing 2 or 3 of them is the OL's fault?

For those of you playing at home, I am suggesting the speed the heroes get through a dungeon floor will also affect the OL's ability to get kills in.

granor said:

I would say the very fact that the heroes made it off the floor that fast points to an inept OL. I have never seen the heroes clear a floor in 3 turns, it usually takes a turn to get to the monsters, at least a couple fighting, at least 1 more to collect everything, and another to get out.

The heroes can almost never block all spawn points. As long as the OL uses this (plus traps) to his best advantage, it is easy to kill even the most well prepared heroes, especially with silver monsters where a Guard order won't kill in a hit.

Dashakan said:

In RtL? Are you kidding me?

And you have obviously never encountered a Hero with high fatigue and speed, with a power potion in hand do the following: Drink the power potion, advance, burn some fatigue for extra movement, kill the level boss, and the open the portal in one turn. Next turn, everyone leaves via the portal or a glyph

Yes it can happen. And if the OL has no traps in his hand due to just random luck from the deck, you are actually going to try and tell me its his fault that it happened?

Listen, I realize everyone's playing experience is different but your view the OL is definitely a minority one.

Big Remy said:

LOL, your argument here is laughable. Me and the guy I play with are looking at it, find ONE map in RtL where this is possible, without a specific feat. Even if you have a 5 move 5 fatigue hero, you have 10 movement. 9 after potion. 7 after door opening. Really? there is a map where the starting glyph is within 7 spaces of the Red door with the level boss IN BETWEEN??? are you crazy? Even if you add a movement with the Ring you still can't do it on any level that we see. You would need BOTH a specific feat AND an item/super range weapon on most maps for this to be even remotely possible. Do you realize how ridiculous your post is?

You're right. It was ridiculous.

It would actually be

Turn 1: Run, grab the coin piles and the chest, activate the glyphs.

Turn 2: Kill the boss, open the door exit the level. Rest of the Heroes leave via the portal

I got the order wrong.

Big Remy said:

What game are you playing? It isn't RtL. Even a cursory glance at about the first 25 dungeons shows me that this isn't possible on most, if any of them. You can't grab the gold and the chests in a single turn. And are you even accounting for the fact monsters just MIGHT be standing in your way? The game is simply not possible to be played that quickly by the heroes. I doubt the heroes can even get out in 3 turns on most, if any dungeon.

1) Its called Acrobat.

2) It is possible, because I've seen it happen.

You keep on believing what you want. I'll keep on believing what I've experienced.

Big Remy said:

Go find a map where you can do it. Then come back and tell me about it. I haven't looked at every one, but I haven't seen one where it is mathematically possible, without a specific set of feats/skills/potions. Evewn if it is possible on a couple maps, it certainly isn't feasible, and it isn't typically a viable option due to the stars needing to align.

Dungeon levels simply aren't as easy for the heroes as a lot of people (you specifically) seem to think.

Dashakan said:

A) You mentioned that silver monsters are enough to kill most heroes. This means you never play outside of the Copper campaign level, which means you're inexperienced with how powerful heroes can get in this game.

B) Dungeons are stupidly easy for Gold Treasure-packing heroes. It's entirely feasible for a hero with 7 fatigue and 5 speed (attainable by Gold for most, Silver for the faster ones) to use a run action and apply all 17 (23 with 1 fatigue potion) mp's to the task of getting the treasure. Treasure chests drop potions, fueling this tactic. Blast-packing Mages kill everything normal you have on the board, and the remaining heroes proceed to destroy the Boss on most levels. This is not only feasible, it's typical. Feel free to try this at home using the gold start rules in the RtL rulebook. As for a level where it's possible: That one level with the respawning mad sorcerer boss. Whatever it's called, I forgot.

C) Good job on keeping your heroes from escaping the Copper level of the campaign. That's some solid OL play, to be able to win so quickly and overpoweringly. Feel free to point your poor heroes here for tips on overcoming such a strong OL presence.

D) That post I quoted? It makes you look ignorant and not a little bit boastful to anyone who's faced heroes holding Gold Treasures. Just mentioning it, if you care about that sort of thing.

Thundercles said:

This entire thread is ABOUT copper level. Check the first post. All your points here have nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You do a good job of making yourself look dumb while trying to make me look "ignorant" though.

Nest time pay attention to what your reading, and writing about please. Of course gold treasures change everything, but you can't have them in copper when you are fighting silvers.

The specific example that I was thinking of was as follows.

Dungeon 27. minion D

4 skellie blocking the hall standing in frount of the prisoners. One Dark priest on the blue key.

4 heroes the important one Spiritspeaker Mok.

Mok plays carried by the wind. So now he has 6 move and fly. He runs giving 12 movement points and 4 fatigue. 12 move gets him 2 squares from the blue key. 2 fatigue to move onto the key one to tele the monster off the square 1 to drink a potion (not in that order of course). The hero also has the movement ring so he heads back one square. The other heroes attack the skellies and open the door.

My Turn. I spawn 2 silver blood apes. They leap to block the door attacking 2 different heroes onlong the way. The skellies that were left atttack the villagers to try to prevent conquest gain. (This may have been a tactical error) Next turn Mok runs again teles one of the blood apes out of the way and all heroes run out the door.

This happened in one of my games. I noticed you have qualified your statment saying you were not including feats. This example may not be what you were thinking of.

granor said:

FIrst thing, I never said I'm not playing with feats, we are.

Second, the skeletons cannot spawn anywhere near the prisoners on that map, so if you did that you are already playing wrong.

3rd, this took a VERY specific map, skill, item AND feat combination to work, PLUS you had to have 0 traps. There is a very rare chance of that actually happening.

Also, you should have had a very easy time killing at least Mok, if not another hero in addition between 2 silver apes, and all the skellies and the 2 preists. Thats a pretty poor example of how 99% of dungeons go, which is nothing like that. Plus, what was the point from the heroes perspective? They got no money, no conquest (or very little) and no treasures. Just a couple dead heroes (I would hope) and wasted time.

Dashakan said:

1) Sorry I was answering your statment in #32 you said find a map but not to include feats. This was what I was thinking of so I gave you the example. I was just stating that this example did not fall under your assumptions in your replay #32.

2) the skeletons were the minion choice for the start of the map. I didn't know there were rules regarding how close to the skelles they could be placed. Do these rules change the example I gave?

3) Actually yes it is specific I was trying to give an example of when I feel the OL not killing 2 or 3 heores in a level is not because the OL can not play well. Additionally, if the OL has no threat having a trap in hand may still not be effective (discard may get you to be able to play it but then the apes would not spawn). I am not sure what trap would stop this specific example (as mog has 4 fatigue to burn in the first turn) unless you are thinking of playing several.

The 2 apes needed to attack seperate heroes because I needed to get them in frount of the door this was of course ineffective so doing something different may have been better. The priest by mog was not a factor as I remember I rolled a miss. Of the other skelles I was trying to kill the villagers (remember I have silver beasts not eldritch) this was not effective at all and going after the heroes may have been a better idea. Of course the heroes killed 2 of the skellies on their turn so I didn't have 4 attacks.

Dashakan said:

Ha! That's an embarrassing mistake. Probably should have bothered reading more, but it was so easy to assume.

Ok, more direct answer to your scoffing assertion that people who aren't on your side don't know wtf they're talking about:

For The Heroes:
Max MP's from Fatigue with 1 Fatigue potion = 2 x Fatigue - 1.
Given starting fatigue values, this gives 5 - 9 mp's from fatigue on the starting turn of a dungeon for any given hero, which means:
MP's for Battle: 5 - 9 MP's
MP's for Advance: 8 - 14 MP's
MP's for Run: 11 - 19 MP's

Treasure is within starting Run MP range in: Levels 1, 2, 4, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 22, ...I'm gonna stop counting because at least 1/3 of the levels have treasure accessible within the starting range of the heroes, and it's going to take me too long to count them.. Many more have a glyph within starting run range, and Acrobat/Skilled/Swift open even more possibilities. If you try to stop the heroes using strategically-placed monsters, they'll be within range of most heroes' advance actions, and several heroes' battle actions. I'm not sure where you got it in your head that it's unfeasible for the heroes to run in, grab the treasure chest (which will often drop a potion), and run out, but I'm quite sure you're mistaken. Have you tried being the heroes and running such a strategy? Might be enlightening.

granor said:

But it is the OL's fault in your example, you failed to kill any of the heroes, (specifically mok, who they needed to tele your beast out of the way). So yes, it is OL misplay, you even hint at it in your example.

Also, for the record, you can't put starting spawns in the red shaded areas on the maps, and yes it certainly would change what happened because less, if none, of the skellies would be killed by the other heroes and all would only be able to attack Mok. You probably would have killed him and could potentially delay them another turn, although maybe not.

Also, I am curious as to where you spawned the apes that they could stand in front of the door, but weren't in the LoS of the heroes to start with.

Thundercles said:

Ok, where to begin. First off, there are plenty of places, on most of those maps you mentioned to spawn monsters to block a hero getting to a chest, where the monsters could in no way be able to be hit by an advance or a battle action. It is really a VERY false assumption you made there, thinking the heroes can attack them off the bat. Secondly, of the maps you mentoioned, it is NOT possible to "run in, grab the treasure chest, and run out" on any of them except 12, where you would only be able to get one chest, and only if someone else has already killed the Master Giant (and again, if there aren't monsters in your way). The closest you come is if you somehow have 22 movement points AND acrobat on number 9, and even then on that map you would lose some major CT to the OL.

If you can give me an actual turn by turn on any map where you can actually "grab the treasure and leave" in a turn go ahead, but on all the ones you entioned, it is not possible (with the caveat I mentioned for #12).

You simply cannot play RtL that way at all, without a very specific map/item/skill/feat/hero combination that on occasion (I postulate less then 5%) MIGHT be able to do it IF the OL has no traps and no threat.

I don't see what game you are playing where you think this is possible.

Dashakan said:

They can and should be blitzing levels like this. If your heroes try this, you'll see. Or run a few example games by yourself, just any level, any hero combo. You should immediately see the benefit after running two or three weeks like this. The OL simply needs more time to gather threat and cards to finish off heroes while all the monsters are copper.

It's not playing this way that leads to the 2:1 OL scores (which still usually result in losses if you let the game come down to the final battle). If you can get a good start like this through the first two or three dungeons, it really works. I believe those of us that have been around the forums a while know there are a lot of players out there that recommend this strategy. If your heroes aren't using it, don't tell us its not possible, because it is, even with near flawless OL play.

They should really be out in around 4 turns, no kills, several conquest gained to your one for the week.

I never said running through dungeons isn't a good strategy - of course it it. That is common sense, it means less threat and cards for the OL. I'm saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to make it through with the speed several people are claiming in this thread. Mathematically impossible. That's a fact - not an opinion. The faster the heroes make it through a dungeon, the better. And if the heroes learn when to cut and run, even better.

It is still very easy for a decent OL to get 2-3 kills on a floor with silver monsters, vs copper weaponry. I have seen it time and again. It is near impossible for the heroes to keep up with the OL in terms of conquest during the copper age, unless the OL doesn't play to maximum efficiency. The heroes are still likely to be fantastic in the late game, and completley own the avatar fight, if you play using standard rules. Copper is still the hardest time for the heroes.

Ok, ok: I don't know if there's any dungeon where you can kill the boss and reach the portal in ONE turn (and I hope never find it, as OL!!), even if I actually think that it could be possible (this game has an incredible amount of variables, that's the way I love it....)!

But....reading some of your posts seems that OL has no chances to win the Campaign!

It's so sadly....I mean: is the game unbalanced??!

My first impression was: not, the game seems well balanced, and the heroes have the same chanches to win than the OL...

But now, after reading some posts, I fear that is a little bit impossible to win with my Avatar in the final battle, isn't it??

Please, let me keep on dreaming that this game is balanced!!

Dashakan said:

Level 14, the Fountain of life.

Hero 1 grabs treasure and fatigue potion using 12-13 mp's (depends on start location).
Hero 2 grabs 2 treasure caches using 10-11 mp's.
Heroes 3 and 4 either use blast to clear a path to the glyph or merely glyph out.
OL kills as many heroes as he can.
Heroes escape.

This is the special case in the levels I listed, because there's basically nothing the OL can do about stopping the heroes from doing this if 14's the first floor.

I guess the confusion was that you thought that the heroes grabbing the treasure need to escape unharmed in a single turn. That's usually not going to happen: the hero who grabs the treasure/glyph is usually very dead. This strategy relies on using potions and the town shop's sunburst rune (for path-clearing). The goal is to get tons of loot while losing only 4-8 conquest per level.

As for level 12, I didn't bother to check the special rules: does the Giant need to be dead to collect the treasure? If not, sunburst rune clears central room, heroes grab chest, glyph, and money and flee the level. Splitting your 10 starting monsters to prevent the heroes fleeing to one side or the other opens up the possibility of bum-rushing the Giant. Level 9 needs 19 mp's with acrobat, not 22 (how did you get 22? Do you know that you can move diagonally across corners?). If you remember JitD quest 2, the Brothers Durnog, the only effective opening move is to race your fastest character to grab glyph behind a single brother on the first turn; if they survive, that's a bonus. The concept is similar here.

Obviously, traps make the smash-and-grab strategy much harder: as the OL, you're usually powerless on level 1, but levels 2 and 3 are much harder to speed-run. No one would argue with that, but if you're fleeing level 1, you never see levels 2 and 3. WIth the right equipment, the shop Blast rune can be used to clear out paths very effectively.

There's been several posts on BGG as well as in these forums about the speed-run strategy for heroes in Copper. Many others have gotten these strategies to work quite effectively. Conversely, I feel that this strategy takes a lot of the fun out of the game, because it boils RtL down concentrating on its basic mechanics instead of the hack-and-slash game it's presented as.

Thundercles said:

First off, you are talking about FLEEING a dungeon. Again, the conversation at hand was about moving on in the dungeon.

In your first example, there is NO way for the heroes to move on to the glyph in one turn, (even if you are deluded enough to think a blast weapon will kill all the monsters in the way - especially sunburst, it won't) Even if the blast killed every monster it hit (which it most likely wouldn't) it STILL wouldn't clear the way to the glyph. Several heroes will die, or could potentially die, and you can't move on i that floor without standing on the plates anyways, taking an additional turn.

Losing 4-8 conquest a level would usually entail losing 2-3 heroes a level. Something I have said several times is easily possible, and here you seem to agree.

On your next example, again sunburst wouldn't clear the room, but you have to have a hero stop on the throne in order to unlock the door. So on that map you could, potentially, if you could clear the monsters, grab ONE of the treasures and head out, losing only one hero (the one on the throne)

Count again. Level 9 takes 22 mp's to open the chest, and the door and walk out. Of course you can walk diagonally on corners. Even 22 mp is assuming you have acrobat, which you probably don't, plus you can't even get 22 mp without a specific selection of items/skills/feats. AND if you did get out in 1 turn you would be leaving 6CT behind for the OL to take for free.

You still have yet to make your "1 or 2 turn" strategy work on ANY map without an exact combo of items/skills/feats and heroes.

TheHunterBoy said:

The game is balanced to a point- but as OL you can't expect to win by the final battle. That isn't balanced. The OL needs to win by Tamalir raze or plot win. It's really pretty attainable, just as the hero win is. The OL just needs to attempt to win as early as the opportunity presents itself, and to keep the pressure on, ignoring avatar upgrades and going for things that help put pressure on all the time.

Dashakan said:

Killing Mog:

I actually do not think this is the best move for the OL. The OL first wants to prevent the heroes from getting conquest to keep the campain in copper as long as possible. The villagers are 1 armor and 6 health and worth 1 CT for the heroes if they are still alive. Mog has 12 health and specity armor and the ring of protection giving him 3 armor against skellies. For 2 softer targets you prevent the Heroes form gaining 2 CT. Mog himself is only worth 2. The reason I said it may have been a mistake is because killing Mog could net you an extra turn if it did, that would be helpfull. But I still do not think that is the correct move.

Ape spawning:

You are really trying my memory now. I remember them spawning around the top of the map but I am not sure where. I think the other heroes retreated back into the starting hall but to be honest I really don't remember well.

Finally:

I am finding less and less that we disagree on. When we started you said the OL should get 2 kills in per turn. Then you said 2 or 3 per level and now you seem to be saying 2 or 3 kills on most levels and one if te heroes get through a level very fast using some feat, skill, or iteam combo. This possition seems very resonable to me.

granor said:

Killing him is the right choice, as an extra turn with enraged apes could easily kill another hero, or several villagers (using leap). I was just doubting that you had a place to spawn apes, based on what you said the heroes did, and wasn't sure since you did not seem to know all the spawning rules. You can kill 2 in a turn, as someone pointed out (was it you?) it was hyperbole, there are plenty of turns I find I can kill 2 heroes, usually after the heroes have a particularly bad turn, or the turn I spawn silver Eldritch. (which if you recall is what prompted this whole conversation, that getting silver monsters early puts the heroes at a serious disadvantage). The OL should expect 2-3 kills per dungeon level, could be less if the the heroes have that magic combo that I mentioned (skills/items/feats with certain map) or could be more. However, the heroes would be smart to run from the get-go if the OL can reasonably expect to get more then 3 kills, that I agree with.

The main point I am conveying, is that while I have been accused of making wild claims (2 kills per turn, which was an exaggeration) some people here ACTUALLY think you can get off a dungeon floor in 1-2 turns, which is not mathematically possible. That is all.

Dashakan said:

This conversation basis has consistently shifted, mostly accidentally.

Mostly, those people (clear a level in 1-2 turns) were thinking Gold or late Silver levels, when it is not only possible, but easy (particularly when Telekinesis was part of the package, which it no longer is).
To a lesser extent, even by mid bronze, if the secret training is the first upgrade the heroes aim for, and they play smart at the start before the OL has upgraded a category to silver (ie a good solid blitz strategy), it may not be possibly to 'clear' a level in 1-2 turns, and continue, but it is possible in 3 turns (which is just 2 OL turns), and although that may still be uncommon it is quite easy to often clear a level of significant threats in 1-2 turns, while preventing spawning for the couple of turns longer it takes to finish off the level completely. It is rare to lose more than 1 hero doing this - the OL just doesn't have the resources to do more on a first level usually. Then you get a second level blitz risking just a single 2CT character to gather a Chest (either treasure(s) or a CT back anyway (and probably a potion or two which is also important), and cash) or/and a glyph. Astarra is a legend here and a first choice character every time for me. Running, with a power pot, she gets 19 MP to start with and only needs to get within 3 spaces to gather the glyph CT. Even Advancing she can using 14 MP and have an attack to clear a monster off the chest.

I have at home (on another pc where, unlike at work, I can access more than just rules pdfs) a sample dungeon level created just for you. I'll post it tonight if I get an opportunity to finish it. I randomly pulled #37, set up a starting party (quite a good one actually, a good draw of heroes and skills) and followed a step by step move. This, btw, is a starting hero party with no bronze treasures at all.
At the end of OL turn 1, the heroes lost 1 3CT hero and another was wounded, but the heroes were in a very good position. I haven't run through turn 2 yet, but I expect the heroes to clear all the monsters except the boss, have made enough progress on the boss so that turn 3 should see the boss dead and the heroes shouldn't lose anybody killed by the boss. There will be effectively no spawn spots at all. Finishing the level properly will take some time because three heroes can completely nullify spawns on this level (one is kirga, rendering the rubble block ineffective for spawning) so only traps will be a concern, yet it will take time to ferry the prisoners out. At the end of the level I expect the score to be 7-3, maybe 7-5/6 to the heroes, depending on how many traps the OL draws and how effective they are. And that is with no feats at all.

Now, I don't think anybody is arguing with the position that the OL become a lot more effective once he has a silver upgrade. However, by that stage the score should be around 25-25 and the heroes should probably be heading for secret training already (mostly to get fatigue upgrades). And 3-1 even from there is just silly. That means the heroes are losing 4-6 heroes (15CT) on each of the first and second levels (5CT per level for the heroes, minimum - and they should rarely do third levels unless they have aced the first two and/or need to keep map position for some reason).

In summary, I still think your (Dakashan) claims of 3-1 minimum CT proportions and 2 kills per turn have been hyperbole, from a world view possibly largely caused by inefficient hero play. Really, since it is the heroes who control the CT progression, it has to be bad hero play rather than good OL play (which does not in any way mean that good, or even great, OL play is not going on).
Some of the counter claims, while appearing to you to be hyperbole, have merely been claiming against the wrong standard, IMO. However, even against the wrong standard, they do have an underlying basis of principle.