Hi everyone

as growing OL I ask myself....wich upgrade to purchase first, in copper level??

Is better to increase my monster? Or to put in the middle of the battle the 2nd Lieutenant ? And, moreover, is better to send Lieut. to siege a city or to pick up the Quest Item in play (the First Scroll, in our case).

Well...my plot is "eternal night" and my Avatar the Great Wyrm. We're playing yet the first week (but we'll complete it in the next session...in a little while!) so....is better to go on with the plot or do something else?

On the other side....wich could be the best party upgrade to get first (I'll never reveal it them, be sure!!)?

Depends on how much threat you get out of that first week for me. If you have enough to get the first monster upgrade, then go for that. Otherwise I'd get an Lt.

As for the Heroes, the first thing I always try to buy is the Magic Boat. If you don't have that, you are limited in your ability to chase the Lts and get to certain locations.

How did you get the Quest item in play in the first week? Using starting XP for that is not allowed IMHO.

As for your question: Monster upgrade first - it will pay off very fast, giving to time and resources to buy Lt.s and other stuff later.

The monster upgrade defenitely for you. And if you have a scroll out already, get that before you do anything else. You should really never spend the points to put a scroll on the board unless you already have a lieutenant in the space ready to pick it up right away. Once the heroes get one scroll in the vault of a city on the opposite end of the map from your keep your plot is as good as lost.

As to the heroes, the Staff of the Wild (move 2 spaces) and the Talimar temple upgrade are what I usually buy first. The guide can also pay for himself if you get him early enough and use him to increase the encounter chances.

Parathion said:

Uhmmm....I fear I missed that rule! Where is it?

Well...yes: I used starting XP to purchase the First Scroll 'cause the first plot card can be put in play for free (it is NOT an Avatar upgrade but only a kind of "introduction" card for the story, I think...), and I remember the rules didn't state how many plot cards you can have during the first week, is it right? Otherwise, with only 15 XP at the start of the game, what else do you can purchase??!!

btw....thanks a lot: what a fantastic forum!!

TheHunterBoy said:

In the FAQ:

Q: Exactly what cards and upgrades can the overlord spend his initial 15 XP on? Can he purchase lieutenants?
A: Avatar upgrade cards only. No lieutenants.

Plot Advances are not considered Avatar Upgrade cards.

Big Remy said:

:-((((

tooooooo bad!! It was an involontary mystake.... I'm so sorry!!!

Now we are too far to "re-wind" the game...! Next campaign will be played correctly....but now it's too late, I fear (silver level upcoming soon..)!!

Thanks again!

TheHunterBoy said:

It's OK, the overlord usually loses anyway so it's not as if you've unbalanced the game in your favor. Although I admit I haven't played that quest.

It depends on if you want to hear the heroes crying the entire time, if you do buy silver monsters early, followed by lieutenants and the starting 15 on siege engines. But then you have no chance of losing, and the heros will probably just quit playing. I usually wait until at least half way through copper to buy silver monsters, otherwise it just isn't fun for the heroes.

Dashakan said:

I simply can not disagree with the above statement enough. I buy silver critters right away and my heroes keep up just fine. Not finishing the first 3 dungeons is key if your heroes refuse to do this they are simply refusing to learn to play well.

granor said:

I agree. As OL I purchased Siege Engines first, followed by silver monsters after the first dungeon (because they miscounted the XP), followed by Lts. I still lost in the end. I was ahead for most of the game, but when I placed all the comets they entered my keep and after a long fight killed my avatar. I would say if you *don't* buy silver monsters ASAP you have no chance as OL.

It's not so much about not being able to win in the Avatar fight as your heroes having a crappy time playing because they die non-stop. I didn't buy silver monsters until well into copper (120+ conquest) and my heroes already complain nonstop about how they die. And I have to agree, on a decent map with a couple Eldritch spawns I can kill 2 heroes per turn pretty easily.

The bottom line is that the OL has very little chance in the Avatar fight without seriously modded rules regarding that fight. The point is to make the game fun for everyone, and having to fight silver monsters with basic shop items is really tough, and can make the game not fun. Same reason I don't use crushing blow, except VERY sparingly (read: Staff of the Grave). No better way to take all the fun out of a game then breaking everyones treasure the minute they get it.

Dashakan said:

I hate to be a broken record but I see no way this statment can be correct unless you have lots of house rules or your players simply do not get the game. You can kill 2 heroes PER TURN? Really? I hope this is hyperbole because if it isn't you need to start explaining the game to your players. Maybe you should take over a hero for a while show them what they are doing wrong. Quite simpy you should not be crushing decently skilled heroes like this.

granor said:

+1 on this response. Seriously?

Are you kidding? One spawn of silver skeletons can easily kill a hero. 6 dam pierce 2 + 2x 5dam pierce 1 will kill many heroes. Thats 14 damage against a hero with 2 armor. This game is ridiculously easy for the OL to just **** the heroes at will. I always find myself going easy on them, just so they don't want to quit and stop playing.

Dashakan said:

Ok things are looking up we went from 2 kills per turn to one kill after a spawn on a low armored target.

I am confused why you would have heroes running around with only 2 armor after you have gotten silver critters and how you caught this hero with a spawn and been able to attack them with all 3 critters but let's just say the heroes have been unlucky.

Blue averages about 1 damage, green about 2, yellow 0 most cases and silver 1 this gives me 4 damage average not 6 am I missing somehting? The other 2 skellies have 3 average giving you a total of 10 (master silver have pierce 3 I think and normal pierce 2) still enough to kill the hero in question as I assume they would have 8 health but the example doesn't look as bad.

Is this the example you are giving as to why you are kicking your heroes tail?

granor said:

Your post makes little sense. First off, that is an example of easily killing a hero with a SPAWN, it doesn't even take into account the fact that monsters spawn on the maps by default, and can attack as well. A lot of heroes can't have more then two armor with only copper treasures, it isn't as if they have a choice. The blue die hits for 1 or 2 when it hits, and the green can hit for 3 plenty often. You have a 1/3 chance of hitting on a yellow, and I didn't even factor in the silver die OR the correct pierce (+1 as you noted) OR the fact that DOOM! could be in play. Your math is skewed, those attacks can easily kill a lot of the 8 or 12 hp heroes, and the skeletons move fast AND hit from a minimum of 5/6 spaces away.

Being able to hit a hero with a spawn is inevitable, at some point you are going to have a place to spawn, and the skellies move 6 spaces. Don't even get me started on sorcerers hitting for 7-9 on average and dark priests...

It is extremely easy for the OL to continually **** the heroes at copper level, and when it goes to silver the score should be at WORST 50-150 in the OL's favor.

Dashakan said:

His post makes perfect sense, if being slightly understated (not nearly as much as yours was overstated!).
You claimed to be killing 2 heroes per turn (wildly exaggerated, I'm sure)
After going over things again, its down to a more reasonable 1 character, not necessarily high CV (lots of wounds and high armour), after you played a spawn card (which is uncommonly more than once per level unless the heroes are incompetent, very rarely more than twice.) There will also be occasional addition kills from starting monsters, traps, and Bosses, but you generally can't spawn every turn.

It does appear, both from your numbers and your assumptions, that you have a bunch of not-very-competent heroes, skewing your appreciation.
Sure, levels start with pre-spawned monsters. But the heroes always go first. They should have significantly reduced the amount of incoming damage and/or prepared a good defensive position by the end of their first turn.
Getting 2 kills per level for the OL keeps things about even, more or less, since each level has a minimum of 5 CT available for the heroes, often more.
Getting more kills per level than 2 (with a few exceptions for certain levels) indicates that your heroes are not particularly competent, and probably too slow (possibly also pushing too far into dungeons when fleeing would be a smarter option).
Eldritch are the best killers in the dungeons, as they have significant damage potential, large numbers, and the range to always be in contention to get a decent hit in (unlike humanoids). But they are generally weaker in encounters and the heroes should be taking advantage of that.

A CT scoreline of 150-50 indicates gross incompetence on the part of the heroes to me, far from a 'minimum' score for the OL.

Lets see, obviously you can't kill 2 heroes EVERY turn or they would get nowhere, but there are plenty of turns that you can kill 2. I usually end up spawning once on the first level 2-3 times on the second and several more times on the 3rd, assuming the heroes stick around for that, which they don't. The person I typically play with, whom I have played at least 4 campaigns with, plays as the heroes just fine. He certainly isn't "grossly incompetent" and we usually discuss moves the heroes make as to make sure they make the most sense for the heroes. It is easy enough to pull ahead in CT by a minimum 4:3 ratio without silver monsters, and once you have them the heroes have a very difficult time unless the dungeon happens to randomly have none of the type you picked.

Encounters are hardly even a factor, as the heroes typically have the staff and the guide early causing them to rarely face an encounter.

And god forbid if the heroes want to actually finish a rumor or the caverns in copper, you get that many more spawns if they are going to stick it out. I'd love to play a game with you sometime to see what your "superior advanced tactics" are to be able to keep up with the OL. The current campaign my friend counts himself lucky that he has ~65CT headed into silver, and that is because I went easy on him (read: Let him kill a lieutenant instead of running, not purchasing silver monsters until there was 120+ CT count, not seiging Tamalir ONCE, and never attacking him with my LT's)

Dashakan said:

This to me is the problem. What are your heroes, because this is a somewhat inaccurate statement. Not counting the ToI heroes cause I don't have them, the starting armor values without any Armor item are:

6 Heroes with 0

17 Heores with 1

7 Heroes with 2

1 Hero with 3

1 Hero with 4

Even with shop items, give two of the Heroes the Chain Mail and the majority of Heroes with have a minimum of 3 armor to start with. Most of the tanks will have an armor of 3 or 4 easy. Give the other two party members Leather armor, and the majority with have 2 (typically the magic user and/or the ranged/runner). Hell, the shop deck has two copies of the Wizard's Robe which will give +2 versus ranged/magic to give the magic user or ranged/runner so the majority of them will have 3 versus ranged/amagic attacks.

Who are the Heroes in the party and what do they have for equipment? I always, and this is just my opinion, will go for the strong armor versus the storng weapon given the choice, especially when starting out.

Yes there is a melee character with 2 base + chain mail, there is a character with the +3 version of the wizards robe and 0 base armor, a hero with 1 base ant the cloak of +1 armor that blocks damage on blanks, and a 4th hero that has 0 base and heavy leather. That means one with 4 armor (who I mostly ignore), a hero with 0 (or maybe 1, I think she has the RIng of +1) armor against melee and a little against ranged/magic, but still 8hp, a hero with 2 armor, and a hero with 2 armor. They are fairly well equipped. armor-wise. I'm sure Ghost armor is in there somewhere as well. Either way, none of them (save the 4 armor person, who is also pretty freaking easy to kill with silver eldritch) can easily live through a round of skeleton attacks + a random attack or two by other monsters.

No matter how you slice it, while the heroes may easily win the endgame, the dungeons, specifically during copper, are a cakewalk for the OL.

Dashakan said:

Well, in your reply 11, you claimed you killed '2 heroes per turn, pretty easily', which does sound exactly like 2 heroes more or less every turn. The wilder you make your claims, the less beleivable they are.

In 4 different campaigns, 1 on 1 (players), 2 each so far as OL and as heroes, the worst performance I've been involved with was 117-84 to the OL.
However neither of us have played the Sorcerer King, who is undoubtedly the best Avatar early on in the dungeons.
No disrespect intended to your friend, but if he is losing 3-1 or worse then he perhaps might need to learn some new tactics or style of gameplay.

Corbon said:

That sounds like a poor performance by the OL to me. I also have yet to play as the Sorceror King (although I have played against him), the most effective avatars I have played as early are the Great Wurm and the Spider Queen.

If your OL is only managing 2-3 hero kills a floor, that is pretty sad, he must not understand how to spawn and attack effectively, or how to uses traps well.

Dashakan said:

Or its called your heroes actually know what they are doing, are able to block your spawn points and have effective attacking/defending tactics. You can be doing nothing wrong as OL and still have a bad time of it if the Heroes are paying attention.

Dashakan said:

That's a large portion of your heroes problem - avoiding regular encounters. After one dungeon they should be hitting every encounter they can, adding dice with the guide. Encounters are weighted heavily in the heroes favor, save for a few ghastly event/location pairings, and they are the best way to keep heroes gold income up with their XP income, which is often the heroe's biggest problem in the early game (too much XP, no gold to use it).