If my opponent use whatever card effect to reduce my attack's damage to 0 and decided not to block, I can still respond with my Holding Ground during the damage step to return the damage back to the printed damage of my attack card (of course, if it has a value other than 0).

If my opponent half block my attack, I can respond with my Holding Ground during the damage step to make the damage dealt equal to Half printed damage rounded up.

If my opponent reduced my attack's damage to less than its printed damage, can I wait until they respond with Cutting Edge to reduce the damage by destroying their foundations and then I respond with my Holding Ground to make them take more damage? Or its already too late once they use Cutting Edge's effect?

Thanks.

Holding Ground, by its very nature, has to respond before the actual step of dealing damage occurs (this will be covered soon...) since it modifies the damage of the attack, not the damage dealt as a result of the damage of the attack.

Compare it to throwing a baseball, but your arm is extremely tired so your throw sucks. If there was some magical way to revitalise your arm, it wouldn't do you any good after your feeble attempt at a throw... and Cutting Edge is the catcher's mitt there to make the catch easier.

That doesn't mean you can make a attack deal its printed damage if its at zero does it?

Sure you can. Holding Ground responds before the throw, so to speak. Every attack has a damage step whether the damage is 8 or -20.

Just because the ball didn't reach the plate, doesn't mean the throw didn't happen.

Note that the determination of the attack dealing damage or not dealing damage (for the purposes of stuff that says "if this attack deals damage...") is all the way after the point that even Cutting Edge can no longer respond. The Umpire isn't going to make the call until the ball stops moving.

Also, just to complete the analogy, the batter is a block.

Tagrineth said:

Right?

Your analogy is flawed tho, throwing a weak pitch would be the result of playing a weak attack and what happened during the Enhance step, whereas Holding Ground activates between the ball hitting the catcher's facemask (because who really gets hurt by catching a ball? 8) ) and the catcher getting rocked. Cutting Edge makes him take the hit better. Healer would be the card that activates to revitalize your arm, but it does no good if the ball is already in the air.

Okay then think of Holding Ground like a rocket booster attached to the baseball. It has to fire before reaching the plate to have any kind of effect.

Again, this situation will be covered soon. Yes, there's a lot of Voodoo Magick™ involved in Holding Ground working / not working, this will be fixed soon.

I've been dealing with some real-world stuff lately, life hasn't exactly been peachy (hence the semi hiatus from the boards) so the new errata proposal has been (severely) delayed.

Haha, thanks for being on the boards at all (with that scarily-worded sticky and all :] ). Can I get a stamp on the game rules part of my post?

Yeah, pretty much. stamp. once the catcher either caught the ball, missed and let it whiz by, or it bounces off his noggin, the rocket boosters no longer have time to kick in.

Tag these baseball anologies don't work, and you over complicate things.
So:
Holding ground effect is triggered before cutting edge is triggered?

Because holding ground is before the player takes damage and cutting edge is as the damage is occuring?

Hey guys...

Here's the AGR copy and paste on the Damage step:

8.3.3 The Damage Step
The Damage Step is where an attack’s damage is finalized and converted into vitality loss.
8.3.3.1 If a completely blocked effect has been generated, this attack deals no damage. Proceed to the Reversal Step (See 8.3.4 The Reversal Step).
8.3.3.2 If a partially blocked effect has been generated, the attack will deal half damage. Continue through the Damage Step to asses and assign damage to the defending player. Then proceed to the Reversal Step.
8.3.3.3 If the defender decided not to block, or failed to generate a block effect, the attack will attempt to deal damage.
8.3.3.4 Determine the amount of damage outstanding. This is where any effects that state “when a player is taking damage” or “when you are taking damage” may be played.
8.3.3.5 Phrases such as “When a player is taking damage” or “When you are taking damage” are both played interchangeably at this step. These are referred to as Damage Adjusters.
8.3.3.6 The active player may choose to play any Damage Adjuster. His opponent may then choose to play any applicable damage adjusters.
8.3.3.7 Each player will continue taking turns playing Damage Adjusters until both players have passed consecutively.
8.3.3.8 Subtract the appropriate amount from the defender’s vitality total. This is considered vitality loss.
8.3.3.9 If an attack will deal half damage, and halving the damage will not result in a whole number, round up to the next whole number.
8.3.3.10 An attack must cause a vitality loss of at least 1 or more to your opponent to be considered to have dealt damage.
8.3.3.11 Any effects that activate “if damage is dealt” (or any applicable synonyms), trigger at this step.
8.3.3.12 Determine what step to proceed to:
8.3.3.12.1 If any effects are pending that state “If this attack deals damage, you may play a reversal as if you blocked this attack.” (or any
applicable synonyms), proceed to The Reversal Step (See 8.3.4 The Reversal Step).
8.3.3.12.2 If there are no Reversals pending, but there are additional attacks to resolve (such as Multiples – see Multiples 2.14.2.4), begin a new attack sequence with the next card in the card pool.
8.3.3.12.3 If there are no further attacks pending, return to the active players combat phase.
8.3.3.13 If a player is reduced to 0 vitality during this step, they lose the game. Proceed to 10.0 Ending the Game.

Antigoth said:

This means that you play damage adjusters AFTER determining that a partially-blocked attack deals half damage. So if Holding Ground is played on a partially-blocked attack that attack now deals full damage, is this correct?

I know this isn't how things were played before, but it seems to be how things work in the new rules. Or am I reading this too literally?

ChaosChild said:

Reading it far too literally.

Attack is half blocked, so it deals half damage.

If it was printed 5 damage, and it was pumped to 10, holding ground would drop it back to printed of 5, and you would take half of that.

The block effect doesn't reduce or increase the amount of damage, it simply clarifies how much of the final calculated damage you will take.

This is frickin' significant. I don't think I've ever played this way.

Just to make sure I have it straight:

We do NOT cut the damage in half (due to partial block) until ALL damage adjusters have been applied. Do I have this right?

I think the natural inclination up until now was to cut it in half as the Damage Step began, then to reduce/increase further with what are now called Damage Adjusters.

ARMed_PIrate said:

I can see how this would be viewed in significant in this situation.

But if Valkarie Turn was reduced to 0 because of it's ability, then holding grounded back to printed, but an off-zone block was played against it, it would still only deal half rounded up.

So Holding Ground and Cutting Edge are both Damage Adjusters, and have the exact same trigger? So a 10hp opponent attacked by Big Cyclone, with a Holding Ground backing it up, cannot save himself with CE. Excellent!

Thanks much for clearing that up

Wafflecopter said:

No problem, but remember it goes both ways. If you holding ground at attack down, and then cutting edge it, it's legal as well.

Originally this was how the injury assets were supposed to work. I just tried to get the game back to how it was intended instead of how wordings on cards had forced it to go in lieu of no rulings.

OK, I know this is old, but I just want to make sure I understand this completely. Sorry for sounding like such a noob, but just reading this thread confused me.

Let's say I play Wingless Aeroplane.

My opponent responds with Siberian Training, reducing it to zero.

I enchance with the attack, which will give it +2 damage if not blocked. We both then pass on enhances.

So, it would go to block step, right? My opponent chooses not to block.

Can my Holding Ground be played here and would my opponent take 7 damage? If I respond with Holding Ground can they THEN respond with Cutting Edge?

I read the rules you posted above. But I'm confused about it saying that damage must be at least one, but yet the trigger for holding ground still happens even though they wouldn't be taking damage.

On a side note, does the same hold true for those Fei Long cards from Deadly Ground, is Zero "four or less", or must at least 1 damage be done to fill those qualifications?

Thanks for your patience and assistance, I don't know why this is so hard for me to grasp. Maybe I just need some more caffeine, lol!

Okay - So if you playwingless Aeroplane it's siberian'd, then holding grounded, and it was not blocked, they'd take printed +2.

Holding ground is one of the cards that when we finally get to all of the functional errata, is seeing functional errata.

The when taking damage statement on Holding ground classifies it as a "Damage Adjuster" effect. You now play it at the appropriate part of the damage step, as outlined in the AGR.

Yes, it is now possible to Cutting Edge the attack after it's been holding grounded.

However it is then possible to holding ground it again after the cutting edge effect has been played.

This is a significant change that was introduced with the AGR.

The following is not intended to be snarky, I'm just writing quick responses inbetween avoiding doing work that I'm paid to do.

Go download the AGR, and read the attack sequence. Section 8.3

The entire attack step has been outlined in full detail that it has never been outlined in before.

Yeah, I checked it out. I read it and was still confused, hence the question. Thanks for the response and no snarkiness was detected.

Antigoth said:

Played Aeroplane 2H5

Siberian -> 2H0

It's E -> 2H0, +2dmg floating

No block, 2H2

Damage step, Holding Ground -> 2H5

Wafflecopter said:

You're right. Wingless Aeroplane would actually add the damage at 8.3.2.11, if no block was played, which is before 8.3.3.4 when holding ground would bring it back to 5.