The tournament thread gives the results of high level tournaments. Asking what sort (which could mean what level, what format, where in the world) of tournaments one has been to is not an implicit "if it's less than me I know better than you", especially when the poser of the question specifies they are not attempting to do such and are simply interested.

There's zero need to open with a preface like that unless you know exactly how it's going to be taken and want to act innocent.

It's perfectly fine to disagree with an opinion and present an opposing one, it's a sign of underlying weakness in your own position when you go for the person not their opinion.

Too bad you can't do polls on here, that would be a quick way to gauge everyone's opinions on 3PO being OP for this cost or not.

One thing I'll grant is that 3P0's card text is not fluffy. It should instead allow you to annoy your opponent with arguments about game balance.

There's zero need to open with a preface like that unless you know exactly how it's going to be taken and want to act innocent.

The reason you open with a preface like that is specifically to stop it being taken the wrong way. Just like "I mean no offence by this but"

Once again, Sideslip didn't criticise or question the credibility of Gungo at any point, he simply asked for more information about the tournaments Gungo had played in, the tournaments Gungo was talking about in his examples. He also explicitly stated that his own personal experience didn't match Gungo's as the motive behind the question. There's no reason to assume that Sideslip had any ill intentions: Gungo started lambasting him for his "worthless" question before we even heard what Sideslip had to say.

One thing I'll grant is that 3P0's card text is not fluffy. It should instead allow you to annoy your opponent with arguments about game balance.

One of the fluffiest in the game IMO. C-3PO's ability is to tell you the odds.

One thing I'll grant is that 3P0's card text is not fluffy. It should instead allow you to annoy your opponent with arguments about game balance.

One of the fluffiest in the game IMO. C-3PO's ability is to tell you the odds.

He tells you the odds are 3 to 5. You either listen to him or shout "Never tell me the odds!" and then "I predict I will roll 1 evade".

Nope. It should let you argue about game balance while playing.

He tells you the odds are 3 to 5. You either listen to him or shout "Never tell me the odds!" and then "I predict I will roll 1 evade".

C3PO is an incredibly fluffy little crew card. Laughed out loud when I first saw it.

And then cried later on when you played it?

Well one thing this thread has made me realise, that it's pointless romanticising one mode of play over another. Just like 'flying casual' cost me my quarter-final spot at the Regionals, trying to be counter-meta or advocating banning anti-fun cards is ultimately pointless when A)it's not going to happen B) People are suckers for punishment.

This thread should now be renamed 'How I learned to stop worrying and learned to embrace the Droid.'

From now on it's double Falcon until the next cheese card, baby!

While it doesn't particularly matter since your experience is only a tiny fraction and we have a giant thread showing exactly every major tournament result that clearly shows your personal experience is wrong. I've played in local tournaments and the atk on Imdar. I did not fly to gencon but none of that matters since there is a giant thread about tournament results that anyone can base thier observation on and is a lot more accurate then your local scene. So your comments are clearly made to attack my credibility however your basis of the attack is worthless when talking about tournament results and what is being played at tournaments because even if my local meta was everyone playing a falcon it wouldn't matter since it's only a fraction of results. Ironically though if you were wondering what list I play I Tournaments since you know this entire worthless post by you was not meant to attack my credibility I play a fat chewie build. Now you can sit here and claim I'm just copying the meta however again you would be wrong considering I have posts and arguments about this almost exact same build back in feb when they previewed wave 4 and c3po. When I already knew then it was going to be a problem.

In no way did I intend to disparage Gungo. I was attempting to start a discussion by qualifying the background that each of us has come from. I certainly did not anticipate the above screed.

Allow me to share my competitive experiences with Wave 4. After taking a Phantom home from Imdaar Alpha, I immediately developed an affinity for Whisper. In the time before the official release, I saw first-hand how powerful they can be, especially against the dominant Wave 3 options.

I followed Major Juggler's thread closely and noted that, in the first few post-release regionals, Phantoms seemed to be winning everything. I think this was the impetus behind the abrupt meta shift towards Falcons. Other factors contributed (Threepio, cheaper filler ships), but the shift seemed to be driven by the capabilities of high-skill Phantoms with ACD. In the following few weeks, Falcon builds showed up all over the top tables.

Before my regional, I predicted (and hoped) that the pendulum would swing back toward the traditional Falcon counters, but I was wrong. At the Plano regional, there were lots of Phantom builds and lots of Falcon builds, but few Wave 3 style lists. I will return to analysis in a moment. After regionals, the local tournaments that I attended didn't have any really prolific archetype. There was (and continues to be) a great deal of experimentation.

The builds that I saw at Nationals were, by far, the most creative and diverse that I have seen at any tournament.

Now back to the tournament data as reported on these forums and what it means. I think there are two factors that are misunderstood or at least overlooked. The first is that of over representation. If 45% of players arrive at regional tournaments with Falcon builds, and 43% of top-8 lists are Falcon builds, that does not mean that the Falcon is over powered; it means that the Falcon is over played. If 45% of players arrive with Falcons and 75% of the top 8 are Falcons, then we may be looking at a balance issue. The other (closely related) factor that Major Juggler cannot capture is, "what is losing?" Since we only have data for the top 1/3 of lists, we don't know what is over or under represented at the top tables. Let's consider the Plano regional. Though Falcons and Phantoms were prolific, many Falcons made the top 8 while only a handful of Phantoms did as well. This just an illustration of what the absence of the bottom 2/3 can do to the analysis. Are Falcons really winning everything disproportionately, or are they just as numerous at the bottom tables?

In short, my experiences appear to indicate that there were severe, uniform shifts following the release of Wave 4, but that the metagame seems to be stabilizing without any one (or two) dominant builds.

Trying to invalidate someone's opinion because they've been to less tournament's than you is a pretty weak debate tactic.

I know X better than you know X because Y.

If you refer to Sideslip's question, Sideslip asks "what sort", not "how many". Seems clear to me that he was trying to pin down the source of the discrepancy between his personal experience and the person he posed the question to.

This.

There's zero need to open with a preface like that unless you know exactly how it's going to be taken and want to act innocent.

The reason you open with a preface like that is specifically to stop it being taken the wrong way. Just like "I mean no offence by this but"

And this. Discussions tend to get heated on here. Gungo, in particular, seems to be on a short fuse. I had hoped to avoid all of this, but I hate to think Gungo's response would have been if I hadn't qualified that wasn't attacking him. Nevertheless, I appreciate the support in my absence, Langomorphia.

And then cried later on when you played it?

Nope, never had an issue with a player taking ANY ship or card, casual or tournament. I leave that kind of petulant behaviour and outraged screams of "waaah op plz nerf" to others. Fortunately, there's not many of "those types" when it comes to this well-balanced, enjoyable game.

This thread should now be renamed 'How I learned to stop worrying and learned to embrace the Droid.'

That's the spirit! Nothing more to see here, folks.

....move along.

And then cried later on when you played it?

Well one thing this thread has made me realise, that it's pointless romanticising one mode of play over another. Just like 'flying casual' cost me my quarter-final spot at the Regionals, trying to be counter-meta or advocating banning anti-fun cards is ultimately pointless when A)it's not going to happen B) People are suckers for punishment.

This thread should now be renamed 'How I learned to stop worrying and learned to embrace the Droid.'

From now on it's double Falcon until the next cheese card, baby!

Hooray, one less person kvetching about the state of things and instead adapting! Only thousands more to go...

And then cried later on when you played it?

Nope, never had an issue with a player taking ANY ship or card, casual or tournament. I leave that kind of petulant behaviour and outraged screams of "waaah op plz nerf" to others. Fortunately, there's not many of "those types" when it comes to this well-balanced, enjoyable game.

This thread should now be renamed 'How I learned to stop worrying and learned to embrace the Droid.'

That's the spirit! Nothing more to see here, folks.

....move along.

Exactly Gecko. If I wanted to listen to people cry all day I'd just stay home and play WoW.

The most enjoyable part of this game is figuring out how you're going to crush your enemies and enslave their children. To me.

Bring back dueling, preferably with fists. Someone feels your card is broken? Challenge them, punch them in the head, and the debate is over.

Bring back dueling, preferably with fists. Someone feels your card is broken? Challenge them, punch them in the head, and the debate is over.

Yeah, no other way. I mean, it's not like you can use the exact same ships yourself loaded with the exact same cards.

Oh wait.

1. I always hate the "hard counter" argument. That generally leads down to more of a Rock/Paper/Scissors conundrum that many have pointed out here before- the whole premise of X-wing is that when two people sit down, regardless of lists, the better pilot should win. I know people are going to argue about dice/probability factoring in, and sure, but realistically, most of the time the better Pilot will win. If we start going down hard counter, it runs to where the better list wins, not the better Pilot. Why play that game? In response to people saying you should just run this, it runs counter to fly what you enjoy playing. I'd rather skip tournaments if they're just Falcons versus Swarms.

2. I'm more worried about C-3PO with Lando.- Chewie w/MF, C-3P0, Lando, EI. If there's two ships versus two ships, this game is over midgame. Why play it through if one of your ships get destroyed? I've seen battles just quit midstream because they can't land attacks. Plus, in tournaments, the time limit becomes a concern.

I'm an Imperial player and I don't mind facing off against a Falcon with C3PO, it is what it is. Unfortunately for some players I've seen it become their crutch, go to default, corner stone of every list they build. Thankfully, there can be only 1 in a list and I think that is appropriate and balances out C3PO's costing.

I've also heard it argued (though I'm not entirely sure I agree, I'd like to see FFG FAQ it anyway), that you cannot 'guess 0', as the card specifically asks to guess the number of Evades Symbols to be rolled (edit: meaning it needs to be at least 1), not the number of Blanks.

Have fun with that

Bring back dueling, preferably with fists. Someone feels your card is broken? Challenge them, punch them in the head, and the debate is over.

Yeah, no other way. I mean, it's not like you can use the exact same ships yourself loaded with the exact same cards.

Oh wait.

Except that's not solving the problem that's making the problem worse, people are bored facing falcon lists as it is we don't want even more.

I've also heard it argued (though I'm not entirely sure I agree, I'd like to see FFG FAQ it anyway), that you cannot 'guess 0', as the card specifically asks to guess the number of Evades Symbols to be rolled (edit: meaning it needs to be at least 1), not the number of Blanks.

Have fun with that

But you wouldn't be guessing the number of blanks.

If it didn't work it would be because 0 doesn't count as a number (some games it does, some games it doesn't).

I'm sure we would have heard by now if this wasn't a valid move.

I've also heard it argued (though I'm not entirely sure I agree, I'd like to see FFG FAQ it anyway), that you cannot 'guess 0', as the card specifically asks to guess the number of Evades Symbols to be rolled (edit: meaning it needs to be at least 1), not the number of Blanks.

Have fun with that

Yes, that's crazy talk. With one evade dice, there are two possible outcomes - 0 and 1 evades rolled. Either is a valid guess. Two evade dice, 0, 1 and 2. All three are valid guesses.

Saying you can't guess none is like being given a yes/no question, but then being banned from saying no.

"Would you like to be hit over the head with this baseball bat? Sorry - no isn't a valid answer..."

orrrrrr...don't frustrate yourself by playing in tournaments and actually HAVE fun. That type of environment isn't for everyone.

Trolling casuals has its limits.

Power craves competition.

I've also heard it argued (though I'm not entirely sure I agree, I'd like to see FFG FAQ it anyway), that you cannot 'guess 0', as the card specifically asks to guess the number of Evades Symbols to be rolled (edit: meaning it needs to be at least 1), not the number of Blanks.

Have fun with that

Yes, that's crazy talk. With one evade dice, there are two possible outcomes - 0 and 1 evades rolled. Either is a valid guess. Two evade dice, 0, 1 and 2. All three are valid guesses.

Judging by his name, Romulus Luki Gygax counts in Roman numerals which doesn't have a symbol for '0'. Ergo the confusion.

haha, nice , it's the name of one of my Dark Heresy characters, and yes he is somewhat a radical thinker.

And no I'm not trollin, just putting out an alternative point of view (wasn't exactly mine, but was a discussion I had with another player, more of is there precedence and what if), it may be wrong but I thought this might be the place for discussion.

So, is there precedence? I think so. Every other card is very specific in what symbols need to be rolled for the cards effect to activate, whether it be you are required to roll Hit, Crit, Focus, Evade or Blank, it's in the cards text. All other cards that require you to roll a specific symbol, require at least 1 of that symbol for the card to activate. All other cards, if a different symbol is rolled ie: a Blank, means the cards effect is not activated. Further precedence is, no other card has zero as a result for a cards effect to activate. Precedence only exists, unless this card is unique (or new) in its results effect to activate.

Assuming for the moment there is precedence, and 1 is the minimum guess for the card to take effect, then yes, a 1 Evade ship has only 1 valid 'Guess', making it less chance of being successful in this case.