What irks me about threads like this is that the argument jumps to whether or not something is "overpowered" when it's more complicated than that. I've said previously why I don't like what C3PO does to the game. The existence of counters does not automatically invalidate one's opinion about the card.

What I don't like about C3PO is that it strengthens the Falcon against what it was already strong against: 3-4 ship builds.

For example, Falcon already gave three elite interceptor builds a hard time (and rightfully so) and C3PO makes a hard counter harder. Its attack arc cannot be outmaneuvered, negating the interceptors primary advantage. The best the interceptors can do to compensate is focus fire and hope for the best, which is obviously where C3PO comes into play.

My second point about C3PO is that I think it's undercosted. For the amount of shields and hull it can save you, three points is a steal. Let's face it: that one green die will fail you most of the time. If C3PO saves you from one hit, which it likely will, it already paid for itself. Every hit it saves past that is an absolute bargain, especially against low ship number lists.

TL;DR:

Regardless of whether a counter exists, it's possible to not like a card because of what it does to the game.

I disagree.

Sure, 3 Interceptors against a Falcon is pretty tough, but it can be done. You can still block the Falcon denying it taking the evade action and guaranteeing that your ship can't be fired at. You can switch off between all your ships to spread their life out as long as possible. With blocking, 3PO only guarantees 1 evade a round. Not hard to overcome that.

I also disagree about 3PO being overcosted. You count it as having the same value as a Hull Upgrade, but it really doesn't on a 1 agility ship. A hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship is worth WAY more than on a 1 agility ship. You need to really look at it as how many extra rounds of life it grants you, not hits. Chances are, 3PO has the potential of granting you one extra round of life. So, one more chance to shoot. Hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship also has a good chance of granting you an extra round of life. So in that case, they are worth exactly the same.

What irks me about threads like this is that the argument jumps to whether or not something is "overpowered" when it's more complicated than that. I've said previously why I don't like what C3PO does to the game. The existence of counters does not automatically invalidate one's opinion about the card.

What I don't like about C3PO is that it strengthens the Falcon against what it was already strong against: 3-4 ship builds.

For example, Falcon already gave three elite interceptor builds a hard time (and rightfully so) and C3PO makes a hard counter harder. Its attack arc cannot be outmaneuvered, negating the interceptors primary advantage. The best the interceptors can do to compensate is focus fire and hope for the best, which is obviously where C3PO comes into play.

My second point about C3PO is that I think it's undercosted. For the amount of shields and hull it can save you, three points is a steal. Let's face it: that one green die will fail you most of the time. If C3PO saves you from one hit, which it likely will, it already paid for itself. Every hit it saves past that is an absolute bargain, especially against low ship number lists.

TL;DR:

Regardless of whether a counter exists, it's possible to not like a card because of what it does to the game.

I disagree.

Sure, 3 Interceptors against a Falcon is pretty tough, but it can be done. You can still block the Falcon denying it taking the evade action and guaranteeing that your ship can't be fired at. You can switch off between all your ships to spread their life out as long as possible. With blocking, 3PO only guarantees 1 evade a round. Not hard to overcome that.

I also disagree about 3PO being overcosted. You count it as having the same value as a Hull Upgrade, but it really doesn't on a 1 agility ship. A hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship is worth WAY more than on a 1 agility ship. You need to really look at it as how many extra rounds of life it grants you, not hits. Chances are, 3PO has the potential of granting you one extra round of life. So, one more chance to shoot. Hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship also has a good chance of granting you an extra round of life. So in that case, they are worth exactly the same.

Given the fact that you hardly ever see Falcons with a hull upgrade (only Chewie really) but plenty with C3PO it seems not many people agree with you on this.

Given the fact that you hardly ever see Falcons with a hull upgrade (only Chewie really) but plenty with C3PO it seems not many people agree with you on this.

Obviously you didn't read my post. Hull Upgrade would NEVER be worth it on a Falcon at 3 points. MAYBE 1 point, because Hull Upgrade doesn't do anything for a 1 agility ship. But modifications cost what they do. C-3PO on a 1 agility ship is the equivalent of a Hull Upgrade on a 3 agility ship. They each can potentially increase the life of the ship by a round. Which is why they are worth the same.

The only time 3PO becomes tough to overcome is if you leave the Falcon for last and you're down to 1-2 ships...but why would someone do that?

The only time 3PO becomes tough to overcome is if you leave the Falcon for last and you're down to 1-2 ships...but why would someone do that?

if only it were as easy as you say...

You'd not see half of the top tables filled with Falcon lists.

On a 1 Agility ship. It's a toss up on a HWK or Outrider.

What irks me about threads like this is that the argument jumps to whether or not something is "overpowered" when it's more complicated than that. I've said previously why I don't like what C3PO does to the game. The existence of counters does not automatically invalidate one's opinion about the card.

What I don't like about C3PO is that it strengthens the Falcon against what it was already strong against: 3-4 ship builds.

For example, Falcon already gave three elite interceptor builds a hard time (and rightfully so) and C3PO makes a hard counter harder. Its attack arc cannot be outmaneuvered, negating the interceptors primary advantage. The best the interceptors can do to compensate is focus fire and hope for the best, which is obviously where C3PO comes into play.

My second point about C3PO is that I think it's undercosted. For the amount of shields and hull it can save you, three points is a steal. Let's face it: that one green die will fail you most of the time. If C3PO saves you from one hit, which it likely will, it already paid for itself. Every hit it saves past that is an absolute bargain, especially against low ship number lists.

TL;DR:

Regardless of whether a counter exists, it's possible to not like a card because of what it does to the game.

I disagree.

Sure, 3 Interceptors against a Falcon is pretty tough, but it can be done. You can still block the Falcon denying it taking the evade action and guaranteeing that your ship can't be fired at. You can switch off between all your ships to spread their life out as long as possible. With blocking, 3PO only guarantees 1 evade a round. Not hard to overcome that.

I also disagree about 3PO being overcosted. You count it as having the same value as a Hull Upgrade, but it really doesn't on a 1 agility ship. A hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship is worth WAY more than on a 1 agility ship. You need to really look at it as how many extra rounds of life it grants you, not hits. Chances are, 3PO has the potential of granting you one extra round of life. So, one more chance to shoot. Hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship also has a good chance of granting you an extra round of life. So in that case, they are worth exactly the same.

Even if you can consistently block, you've reduced the falcon to one guaranteed evade vs two. You're back to where you started before C3PO and now you're hitting it with 6 attack dice instead of 9. 9 attack dice vs 2 guaranteed evades or 6 dice vs 1 guaranteed evade. Are you really better off? Was it worth the risk of putting your fragile ship in range one of the falcon?

As an aside, you're blocking a ship that mitigates the damage from being blocked more than most ships. If its Han, he still gets his reroll. If you have gunner and C3PO, they still trigger. The primary attack is a 360 degree turret, so it will still have a shot as long as another ship is within range 3.

Regardless, what you're arguing here doesn't negate the fact that C3PO makes life even harder for small ship lists. I don't think anyone pre-C3PO thought that Falcon needed a buff against such lists.

What irks me about threads like this is that the argument jumps to whether or not something is "overpowered" when it's more complicated than that. I've said previously why I don't like what C3PO does to the game. The existence of counters does not automatically invalidate one's opinion about the card.

What I don't like about C3PO is that it strengthens the Falcon against what it was already strong against: 3-4 ship builds.

For example, Falcon already gave three elite interceptor builds a hard time (and rightfully so) and C3PO makes a hard counter harder. Its attack arc cannot be outmaneuvered, negating the interceptors primary advantage. The best the interceptors can do to compensate is focus fire and hope for the best, which is obviously where C3PO comes into play.

My second point about C3PO is that I think it's undercosted. For the amount of shields and hull it can save you, three points is a steal. Let's face it: that one green die will fail you most of the time. If C3PO saves you from one hit, which it likely will, it already paid for itself. Every hit it saves past that is an absolute bargain, especially against low ship number lists.

TL;DR:

Regardless of whether a counter exists, it's possible to not like a card because of what it does to the game.

I disagree.

Sure, 3 Interceptors against a Falcon is pretty tough, but it can be done. You can still block the Falcon denying it taking the evade action and guaranteeing that your ship can't be fired at. You can switch off between all your ships to spread their life out as long as possible. With blocking, 3PO only guarantees 1 evade a round. Not hard to overcome that.

I also disagree about 3PO being overcosted. You count it as having the same value as a Hull Upgrade, but it really doesn't on a 1 agility ship. A hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship is worth WAY more than on a 1 agility ship. You need to really look at it as how many extra rounds of life it grants you, not hits. Chances are, 3PO has the potential of granting you one extra round of life. So, one more chance to shoot. Hull upgrade on a 3 agility ship also has a good chance of granting you an extra round of life. So in that case, they are worth exactly the same.

Even if you can consistently block, you've reduced the falcon to one guaranteed evade vs two. You're back to where you started before C3PO and now you're hitting it with 6 attack dice instead of 9. 9 attack dice vs 2 guaranteed evades or 6 dice vs 1 guaranteed evade. Are you really better off? Was it worth the risk of putting your fragile ship in range one of the falcon?

As an aside, you're blocking a ship that mitigates the damage from being blocked more than most ships. If its Han, he still gets his reroll. If you have gunner and C3PO, they still trigger. The primary attack is a 360 degree turret, so it will still have a shot as long as another ship is within range 3.

Regardless, what you're arguing here doesn't negate the fact that C3PO makes life even harder for small ship lists. I don't think anyone pre-C3PO thought that Falcon needed a buff against such lists.

Now you're arguing different things. It's not 3PO that makes a matchup between Interceptors and the Falcon hard, it's the turret & gunner.

3PO gets worse the more dice you throw at it. Lots of small ships is the best way to counter it. The Falcon has always struggled against lots of dice being thrown at it. 3PO doesn't really change that. 3PO just makes it better if it's being fired at by less dice.

Or you could just throw gunner on 1 ship and completely invalidate 3PO.

Also, you're not seeing a ton of Falcons right now because they are super/awesome/great/best ship ever. You're seeing a lot because they're the easiest counter to Phantoms, the Wave 4 heavy hitter. Phantoms are doing VERY well in the current meta. So...why wouldn't you want to counter it in the most efficient way possible?

I would put money on Falcon usage dropping off very soon and being replaced with YT-2400's and Decimators. Don't get me wrong, the Falcon is a good ship, but not a best ship and it's not broken with C-3PO. It's just a temporary surge in the meta. It will go away.

This sucks but this meta is not changing until wave 6 releases.

What sort of tournaments have you played in since Wave 4 was released? This is a serious question, not an attack on your credibility. In my experience with the meta at major tournaments does not seem to match yours.

While it doesn't particularly matter since your experience is only a tiny fraction and we have a giant thread showing exactly every major tournament result that clearly shows your personal experience is wrong. I've played in local tournaments and the atk on Imdar. I did not fly to gencon but none of that matters since there is a giant thread about tournament results that anyone can base thier observation on and is a lot more accurate then your local scene. So your comments are clearly made to attack my credibility however your basis of the attack is worthless when talking about tournament results and what is being played at tournaments because even if my local meta was everyone playing a falcon it wouldn't matter since it's only a fraction of results. Ironically though if you were wondering what list I play I Tournaments since you know this entire worthless post by you was not meant to attack my credibility I play a fat chewie build. Now you can sit here and claim I'm just copying the meta however again you would be wrong considering I have posts and arguments about this almost exact same build back in feb when they previewed wave 4 and c3po. When I already knew then it was going to be a problem.

The only part of your post necessary was the answer to his question, the jittery "how dare you question my internet credentials!" was completely unnecessary, along with the insults and ad hominem.

That post asking what your experiences of tournaments are is Sideslip's only post on the thread. If you immediately jump to the conclusion that's he's trying to tarnish the credibility you think you have then that's either a sign of paranoia or there's some merit to such an accusation.

It's been said earlier, but deserves to be repeated: The OP expressed an opinion on the game. He wasn't attacking anyone. He wasn't personal. He was simply expressing a dislike for a certain feature of a game I'm guessing he even bought and paid for.

I think it's a great thread, A) because there SHOULD be room for just that type of discussion, and B) because it makes it quite clear who can actually handle such a discussion in a mature and constructive manner, in stead of degenerating into that undoubtedly warm and fuzzy neanderthal state where you just stroke your own ego and try to make a name for yourself in the herd by punching on the elected victim of the moment in various 'creative' ways. It is even spilling into other threads. "Noo...we should also ban [insert random item from X-wing the miniatures game], haw haw haw, am I the clever one, eh? Eh?".

When you make yourself a victim, you shouldn't be surprised when figuratively everyone laughs at you and tells you to l2p.

... If you immediately jump to the conclusion that's he's trying to tarnish the credibility you think you have then that's either a sign of paranoia or there's some merit to such an accusation.

False dichotomy.

Fat Falcons evolved to combat the 'Broken' Phantoms. Fix the root cause of the situation and any other problems will slowly go away

They didn't evolve, they were always around. They're overpopulating because their natural predators are unduly scared of TIE phantoms.

The only part of your post necessary was the answer to his question, the jittery "how dare you question my internet credentials!" was completely unnecessary, along with the insults and ad hominem.

That post asking what your experiences of tournaments are is Sideslip's only post on the thread. If you immediately jump to the conclusion that's he's trying to tarnish the credibility you think you have then that's either a sign of paranoia or there's some merit to such an accusation.

Not only is what you what false dichotomy, but the poster felt the need to preface his post by stating it's not mean to atk credibility when it clearly was since as I mentioned in my rebuttal it's a flawed premise. Furthermore I didn't jump to conclusions when the original poster had the deliberate intention of mentioning it in his post.

Now you're arguing different things. It's not 3PO that makes a matchup between Interceptors and the Falcon hard, it's the turret & gunner.

3PO gets worse the more dice you throw at it. Lots of small ships is the best way to counter it. The Falcon has always struggled against lots of dice being thrown at it. 3PO doesn't really change that. 3PO just makes it better if it's being fired at by less dice.

Or you could just throw gunner on 1 ship and completely invalidate 3PO.

Also, you're not seeing a ton of Falcons right now because they are super/awesome/great/best ship ever. You're seeing a lot because they're the easiest counter to Phantoms, the Wave 4 heavy hitter. Phantoms are doing VERY well in the current meta. So...why wouldn't you want to counter it in the most efficient way possible?

I would put money on Falcon usage dropping off very soon and being replaced with YT-2400's and Decimators. Don't get me wrong, the Falcon is a good ship, but not a best ship and it's not broken with C-3PO. It's just a temporary surge in the meta. It will go away.

The point about turret and gunner was an aside about blocking a ship that's good at mitigating block damage. I even said "as an aside"...

My point still stands about the strength of the Falcon and C3PO against small # ship lists. This is the context I'm referring to when I explained why I didn't like C3PO. I used a three interceptor list as an example of something that already struggled against Falcon and I'm arguing that C3PO makes it even worse. Falcon didn't need a buff against small ship builds and C3PO, as you pointed out, buffs exactly that. It would be somewhat analogous to buffing Tie Swarm survivability or damage against large ships.

Of course swarms counter it. That's already been established and that's not what's being discussed. Hell, the OP of the thread explicitly said that he didn't like what C3PO does to the small ship meta. People still responded by saying that it's not overpowered and to counter it with a swarm, which misses the point, which, again, comes down to the diversity and viability of small ship lists. Falcon/C3PO is a combo that encourages swarms in a game that was already dominated by swarms.

The point about turret and gunner was an aside about blocking a ship that's good at mitigating block damage. I even said "as an aside"...

My point still stands about the strength of the Falcon and C3PO against small # ship lists. This is the context I'm referring to when I explained why I didn't like C3PO. I used a three interceptor list as an example of something that already struggled against Falcon and I'm arguing that C3PO makes it even worse. Falcon didn't need a buff against small ship builds and C3PO, as you pointed out, buffs exactly that. It would be somewhat analogous to buffing Tie Swarm survivability or damage against large ships.

Of course swarms counter it. That's already been established and that's not what's being discussed. Hell, the OP of the thread explicitly said that he didn't like what C3PO does to the small ship meta. People still responded by saying that it's not overpowered and to counter it with a swarm, which misses the point, which, again, comes down to the diversity and viability of small ship lists. Falcon/C3PO is a combo that encourages swarms in a game that was already dominated by swarms.

The Falcon reducing the damage it receive every round by 1 doesn't make it a "struggle" to bring a 3-4 ship list against it.

3 B-Wings with FCS & HLC's could care less about C-3PO.

2 Tie Fighters, a shuttle and a Defender with HLC could care less about C-3PO.

There are many, many other combinations you can bring. All 3PO does is give the Falcon the possibility to live one more round to get off its 1(!) 3-die attack.

Every year people pick on the one thing that's popular and say that it's broken. Last year it was Howlrunner & TIEs, this year it's the Falcon and 3PO. I wonder what it will be next year...

Fat Falcons evolved to combat the 'Broken' Phantoms. Fix the root cause of the situation and any other problems will slowly go away

They didn't evolve, they were always around. They're overpopulating because their natural predators are unduly scared of TIE phantoms.

And finally we have a winner. They'll fade out, just like every other flavor of the month build does, because eventually the herd will realize what they perceive as teh awesomest ship evar has a lot of weaknesses that nobody will give a second thought to exploiting.

Ahh the great phantom invasion of 14, the game ruining event that never happened.

No it's not.

18 pages LOL

*whispers* you just made it longer

The only part of your post necessary was the answer to his question, the jittery "how dare you question my internet credentials!" was completely unnecessary, along with the insults and ad hominem.

That post asking what your experiences of tournaments are is Sideslip's only post on the thread. If you immediately jump to the conclusion that's he's trying to tarnish the credibility you think you have then that's either a sign of paranoia or there's some merit to such an accusation.

Just because you learned a new word today doesn't mean you know what it means. Go look up ad hominem and learn why you use it improperly. I didn't attack the person instead I attack his argument. If I was insulting his character or his own abilities to play the game that would be ad hominem. If I attack the fact his entire point is based on a flawed premise it's NOT ad hominem. I hope you learned something today.

Not only is what you what false dichotomy, but the poster felt the need to preface his post by stating it's not mean to atk credibility when it clearly was since as I mentioned in my rebuttal it's a flawed premise. Furthermore I didn't jump to conclusions when the original poster had the deliberate intention of mentioning it in his post.

And there you go again. "Oh my god how dare someone ask about the tournaments I've been to! He must be trying to undermine me!"

A person making a civil argument doesn't tell someone that asked them a simple question that they've made a "worthless post." If a post is worthless then a civil argument illustrates politely the flaws in the post and allows the reader to come to that conclusion themselves. If you feel the need to directly describe a post as worthless then you obviously feel that it isn't clear from what you're saying. And of course it isn't, because it's false. It's a completely disproportionate hostile reaction to someone asking you a fair question and even qualifying that they mean no offence by it, and that begs the question: why would a calm, confident person not trying to compensate for anything by acting like an internet tough guy react like that?

How is the poo throwing still going? 18 pages......

When I lose, everything my opponents take is overpowered.

Now you're arguing different things. It's not 3PO that makes a matchup between Interceptors and the Falcon hard, it's the turret & gunner.

3PO gets worse the more dice you throw at it. Lots of small ships is the best way to counter it. The Falcon has always struggled against lots of dice being thrown at it. 3PO doesn't really change that. 3PO just makes it better if it's being fired at by less dice.

Or you could just throw gunner on 1 ship and completely invalidate 3PO.

Also, you're not seeing a ton of Falcons right now because they are super/awesome/great/best ship ever. You're seeing a lot because they're the easiest counter to Phantoms, the Wave 4 heavy hitter. Phantoms are doing VERY well in the current meta. So...why wouldn't you want to counter it in the most efficient way possible?

I would put money on Falcon usage dropping off very soon and being replaced with YT-2400's and Decimators. Don't get me wrong, the Falcon is a good ship, but not a best ship and it's not broken with C-3PO. It's just a temporary surge in the meta. It will go away.

The point about turret and gunner was an aside about blocking a ship that's good at mitigating block damage. I even said "as an aside"...

My point still stands about the strength of the Falcon and C3PO against small # ship lists. This is the context I'm referring to when I explained why I didn't like C3PO. I used a three interceptor list as an example of something that already struggled against Falcon and I'm arguing that C3PO makes it even worse. Falcon didn't need a buff against small ship builds and C3PO, as you pointed out, buffs exactly that. It would be somewhat analogous to buffing Tie Swarm survivability or damage against large ships.

Of course swarms counter it. That's already been established and that's not what's being discussed. Hell, the OP of the thread explicitly said that he didn't like what C3PO does to the small ship meta. People still responded by saying that it's not overpowered and to counter it with a swarm, which misses the point, which, again, comes down to the diversity and viability of small ship lists. Falcon/C3PO is a combo that encourages swarms in a game that was already dominated by swarms.

Holy crap, a ship performs well specifically against what it was designed to perform well against!?!?!?

SAY IT AIN'T SO!

It really sounds like you're mad that your specific lists suck against falcons. to which I quote: Less qq more pewpew.

When I lose, everything my opponents take is overpowered.

Either that or they cheated!