This one again? So after we ban C3P0 and Advanced Cloaking Devices, where will that put us?

back to wave 3

But if it is so well balanced we shouldn't be seeing this disparity just by reducing the point limit ... But any format change brings heavy game piece re-evaluation, so take this with a grain of salt.

You say it yourself: changing the point values changes how good certain ships are. The game is balanced around 100 point games. Whether something is OP at 60 points is, honestly, entirely irrelevant.

But if it is so well balanced we shouldn't be seeing this disparity just by reducing the point limit ... But any format change brings heavy game piece re-evaluation, so take this with a grain of salt.

You say it yourself: changing the point values changes how good certain ships are. The game is balanced around 100 point games. Whether something is OP at 60 points is, honestly, entirely irrelevant.

I can also tell ForceSensitive this: removing the Large ships doesn't fix balance at 60. 5-ship swarms are still very rough opponents at that point level (and why I'd rather play at 50).

The point is, if Threepio is SUCH a big problem that someone thinks he needs banning, then why aren't they using the counters?

Also, I look forward to seeing a Falcon handle 4 HLCs...

I look forward to see how you make that list even exist in the first place.

The point is, if Threepio is SUCH a big problem that someone thinks he needs banning, then why aren't they using the counters?

Also, I look forward to seeing a Falcon handle 4 HLCs...

I look forward to see how you make that list even exist in the first place.

Wave 6. The Scyk looks like it just might be cheap enough to field 4 of them with HLCs.

The point is, if Threepio is SUCH a big problem that someone thinks he needs banning, then why aren't they using the counters?

Also, I look forward to seeing a Falcon handle 4 HLCs...

I look forward to see how you make that list even exist in the first place.

Scyks, probably.

The point is, if Threepio is SUCH a big problem that someone thinks he needs banning, then why aren't they using the counters?

Also, I look forward to seeing a Falcon handle 4 HLCs...

I look forward to see how you make that list even exist in the first place.

Scyks, probably.

Yeah, i know, but wave 6 won't be here anytime soon.

So read the whole thread now my conclusion is this, 3PO is fine but we need to ban falcons and z-95s instead.

I get that right?

So read the whole thread now my conclusion is this, 3PO is fine but we need to ban falcons and z-95s instead.

I get that right?

No. It is obviously more QQ less pew pew, or something along the lines.

"when 6 out of 8 top lists at any given tournament and 25-30% of the player base are carbon copies of the same "

Um, TIE Swarm anyone? Howlie + Xnumber of Academy TIE's? We're launching Wave 5 and the TIE Swarm has dominated the meta since day 1. Big deal, Falcon+3PO spam at the local tourneys. Here's an idea, bring a squadron where the individual ships have more than 2 Attack dice.

*sigh*

If the 'Fat Falcon' list has not yet deterred a Phantom prevalence among Imperial lists, then it's clearly not yet done its job. C-3PO has more work to do.

I vote to Banning All Rebel Scum!

Oh, My solution to C3P0, 4 assault Missiles!

It's times like these that I am glad I do not do tournaments.

I just want my decimator.

If the 'Fat Falcon' list has not yet deterred a Phantom prevalence among Imperial lists, then it's clearly not yet done its job. C-3PO has more work to do.

wait for Decimator + Vader

If the 'Fat Falcon' list has not yet deterred a Phantom prevalence among Imperial lists, then it's clearly not yet done its job. C-3PO has more work to do.

wait for Decimator + Vader

Forget that, man

Kenkirk + Gunner, Isard and Mara Jade is a brutal hammer.

If the 'Fat Falcon' list has not yet deterred a Phantom prevalence among Imperial lists, then it's clearly not yet done its job. C-3PO has more work to do.

wait for Decimator + Vader

Yup, I've got my pre-order in.

I'm an Empire player who really doesn't play the Phantom (or the Defender). I'm a bit of a counter-hype type of person (even if I am playing X-Wing - so maybe not consistent).

So, I'm trying to survive the Phantom Menace while continuing to fly Imperial. I did pick up a Phantom from my FLGS last night, just so that I can learn to fly against it in solo games.

I predicted waaaaaay back before wave 4 was released, that the Z-95 cost effectiveness was going to be the biggest long-term meta-changer in wave 4. I think that's what we are seeing here. Even after the Phantoms start seeing less play post wave 5 (turrets), the C-3P0 Falcon + Z-95's will continue to be a powerful list, and at least half of that is due to the Z-95's.

I remember reading that prediction, and I've been intrigued by it. I don't doubt the correctness of the mathwingery behind that assessment, but what about the sociological factors behind the popularity of different ships? I take it that you have faith in the idea that the meta will be rational in the long run, even if it response to 'animal spirits' in the short run.

Just remember; in the long run, we're all dead.

OMG 3P0 IS OP ICEFROG FIX

REPORT 3P0 PICKER

The game should only consist of y-wings, unnammed x-wings, tie fighters, and alpha interceptors. Everything else is broken and ruins my fun.

You can't complain about what people play against you in a tournament. It's not allowed. It's a tournament. You can expect people to do their best to break the game, within the scope of the rules. If it wasn't 3po falcons, it would be tie phantoms, or b-wings, or whatever. It's not like removing what is perceived as the top list from a game will suddenly make the game balanced, it just means something else becomes king. I don't get why people get upset over this fact.

And if you do like I do, and play casually with a group of friends most of the time, you can discuss what you guys want to play. Here is an example of this convoluted and difficult process.

Me: "So what do you want to play today?"
Friend: "Well I was going to try out this dual phantom mini swarm list."
Me: "I was going to try out biggs, wes, and wedge, but I think phantoms hard counter that."
Friend: "Well why don't you run a falcon against the phantoms then, I think that would be fun to try. I'll bust out the firesprays for the 3 x-wing game after."

This arcane and complex conversation detailed how, in the short span of ~45 seconds, the game can be fun for both people without anyone wishing death on their opponents loved ones for bringing an upgrade card to the table.

I think it might be worth stopping the stoning long enough to consider looking at this from a different angle.

Does C-3PO deserve to be banned? Probably not. Is it 100% Falcons everywhere? No. But it IS influencing the meta in a way a lot of players don't seem to be enjoying.

And isn't that kinda what "Fly Casual" should be about? We make a ton of noise about being a friendly, welcoming, play-for-fun community... until someone dares suggest they're not having fun in dealing with a specific card. Then it's torches and pitchforks time.

I'm honestly coming to think the X-wing community's self-declared friendly awesomeness is misplaced.

Or, conversely, everyone just wants to play the game and have fun while having to deal with the fact that seemingly every other day there's a new thread about how the game is broken or ruined or extortionate or sucks.

With 2-4 ships in your list, or, after a few casualties.

It suddenly doesn't seem so SIMPLE.

Bring more ships, I would suggest, I guess. I usually play a swarm. I learned pretty early on that more ships is more shots is more opportunities to hurt your opponent.

Note the green bit.

What irks me about threads like this is that the argument jumps to whether or not something is "overpowered" when it's more complicated than that. I've said previously why I don't like what C3PO does to the game. The existence of counters does not automatically invalidate one's opinion about the card.

What I don't like about C3PO is that it strengthens the Falcon against what it was already strong against: 3-4 ship builds.

For example, Falcon already gave three elite interceptor builds a hard time (and rightfully so) and C3PO makes a hard counter harder. Its attack arc cannot be outmaneuvered, negating the interceptors primary advantage. The best the interceptors can do to compensate is focus fire and hope for the best, which is obviously where C3PO comes into play.

My second point about C3PO is that I think it's undercosted. For the amount of shields and hull it can save you, three points is a steal. Let's face it: that one green die will fail you most of the time. If C3PO saves you from one hit, which it likely will, it already paid for itself. Every hit it saves past that is an absolute bargain, especially against low ship number lists.

TL;DR:

Regardless of whether a counter exists, it's possible to not like a card because of what it does to the game.

MOV helps Falcons too, which really makes fighting vs C3PO feel unfun too.

Does "unfun" mean the same thing as "anti-fun", perchance?

"Anti-fun" is a very dangerous phrase.

Should we ban Phantoms because they are "anti-fun" for X-wing pilots? How about TIE swarms? Those are "anti-fun" for people who fly Falcons. Out with them too, then?

What exactly does "anti-fun" mean, and where do you draw the line?

What irks me about threads like this is that the argument jumps to whether or not something is "overpowered" when it's more complicated than that. I've said previously why I don't like what C3PO does to the game. The existence of counters does not automatically invalidate one's opinion about the card.

What I don't like about C3PO is that it strengthens the Falcon against what it was already strong against: 3-4 ship builds.

For example, Falcon already gave three elite interceptor builds a hard time (and rightfully so) and C3PO makes a hard counter harder. Its attack arc cannot be outmaneuvered, negating the interceptors primary advantage. The best the interceptors can do to compensate is focus fire and hope for the best, which is obviously where C3PO comes into play.

My second point about C3PO is that I think it's undercosted. For the amount of shields and hull it can save you, three points is a steal. Let's face it: that one green die will fail you most of the time. If C3PO saves you from one hit, which it likely will, it already paid for itself. Every hit it saves past that is an absolute bargain, especially against low ship number lists.

TL;DR:

Regardless of whether a counter exists, it's possible to not like a card because of what it does to the game.

This man speaks truth, does so in a rational manner, and I concur with his words.