It's been great seeing a bunch of phantoms winning nationals lately, ESPECIALLY against Fat Falcons too! The thing I've been wondering every time I see a successful phantom list is, "Why no Echo?" Almost all the winner and top 8 lists with phantoms is with Whisper.

I understand the basics of why people take Whisper:

- PS9 with VI, so there's a chance to cloak first or move last

- Get a focus for defense after cloaking if you hit, very powerful

- more straighforward decloaking mechanism (which could be good or bad)

- more of a jouster who can deal consistent damage as opposed to Echo

Is that all the reasons? I guess with all the turret falcons out there, Echo's ability to be unpredictable is kind of wasted, so people take Whisper if they want a better chance to win in tournaments.

Just wondering if Echo will ever be good enough to play in a tournament setting with even more turret ships coming out. What are your thoughts?

For those of you who play Echo more frequently (I almost play Echo exclusively), why do you play Echo instead of Whisper? and how are you dealing with all the Fat Falcons out there?

Tbh I think its mainly the PS8 VS PS9.

Soontir is PS9

Han Solo PS9

Wedge is PS9

All see a lot of action in tournaments Echo will have a hard time against them with PS8 so I think people play it safe and goes for PS9 Whisper.

I love Echo but if I'm building a Phantom centric list and I find myself with two points to spare even I would upgrade to Whisper.

I think PS is the main reason, but it also takes longer to think out and use Echo's decloak and in a tourney that can slow things down for both players. Sometimes you just need to get through the turns faster to achieve victory.

because when you Whisper there is no Echo

anyway, back to the topic, it's simple really. Whisper + FCS is a lot more effective in combat than Echo. Consider this. Whisper can take evade, use TL gained from FCS to hit the target, cloak back with ACD and get a Focus. Now Whisper is cloaked with focus + evade. In comparison, Echo can really only do cloak + focus. When you start taking into account 360deg weapons, Whisper becomes a lot more valuable since Echo's ability to dodge arcs is nullified

Echo is also restricted in terms of crew slot, in that she really needs Recon Spec. In contrast, Whisper's ability means that you are encouraged to try out different crews, crews such as Rebel Captive, Flight Instructor for more defense, or Merc Copilot or tactician for more offense.

On the flip side, Whisper is more restrictive in terms of builds, since you really need FCS and VI on him. In contrast, Echo can mess around with advanced sensors, and can try out other EPTs like Outmaneuver, Lone Wolf and Expose, to name a few. However, this simply means that you would see Echo more often in casual games than Whisper, that's all

For me its this:

Echo is a flanker, whereas Whisper is more of a dog fighter/jouster--especially if you put recon spec on Whisper.

So it all depends on what role I need the phantom to play and what ships I am supporting it with.

If you come across another Phantom list and you have brought Echo and they brought Whisper, you're toast as long as your opponent is somewhat competent. If it's Whisper on Whisper then it's a fairer fight.

If you come across another Phantom list and you have brought Echo and they brought Whisper, you're toast as long as your opponent is somewhat competent. If it's Whisper on Whisper then it's a fairer fight.

winner goes to whoever brought a Rebel Captive

Tbh I think its mainly the PS8 VS PS9.

Soontir is PS9

Han Solo PS9

Wedge is PS9

All see a lot of action in tournaments Echo will have a hard time against them with PS8 so I think people play it safe and goes for PS9 Whisper.

I love Echo but if I'm building a Phantom centric list and I find myself with two points to spare even I would upgrade to Whisper.

Yeah, and then you have Wes, Corran, and other PS8 with VI to get to PS10. I've definitely played against many PS 9+ ships in casual and tournaments. It's *very* tough, but doable. Though it does slow things down like the poster below says.

I think PS is the main reason, but it also takes longer to think out and use Echo's decloak and in a tourney that can slow things down for both players. Sometimes you just need to get through the turns faster to achieve victory.

Good point here. Often Echo leads to analysis paralysis. Having Navigator on her does help though, even when you've played for a while.

anyway, back to the topic, it's simple really. Whisper + FCS is a lot more effective in combat than Echo. Consider this. Whisper can take evade, use TL gained from FCS to hit the target, cloak back with ACD and get a Focus. Now Whisper is cloaked with focus + evade. In comparison, Echo can really only do cloak + focus. When you start taking into account 360deg weapons, Whisper becomes a lot more valuable since Echo's ability to dodge arcs is nullified

Echo is also restricted in terms of crew slot, in that she really needs Recon Spec. In contrast, Whisper's ability means that you are encouraged to try out different crews, crews such as Rebel Captive, Flight Instructor for more defense, or Merc Copilot or tactician for more offense.

On the flip side, Whisper is more restrictive in terms of builds, since you really need FCS and VI on him. In contrast, Echo can mess around with advanced sensors, and can try out other EPTs like Outmaneuver, Lone Wolf and Expose, to name a few. However, this simply means that you would see Echo more often in casual games than Whisper, that's all

Ironically, I usually don't take Echo with Recon Specialist. I normally take her with Rebel Captive to deal with Whisper, but now that I use FCS more and love the TL+F next attack, having that focus for defense is definitely very useful.

If you come across another Phantom list and you have brought Echo and they brought Whisper, you're toast as long as your opponent is somewhat competent. If it's Whisper on Whisper then it's a fairer fight.

Not necessarily. Played quite a few games against Whisper. Whisper is a lot easier to predict where he'll go, and easier to block the decloak lanes (which is how I killed whisper in the past). Since he's a jouster, he often gets somewhat close (plus he can't double back and move farther like Echo) and then gets trapped for a turn or two (or at least is predictable for a turn or 2). I usually let my other ships deal with Whisper and make him a priority. Definitely a tough match, but based on the lists I've seen out there, it would be a fun fight. Say:

Whisper + TIEs or Whisper + Shuttle + BH/Interceptor

vs

Echo + TIEs or Echo + Shuttle/BH/Defender

Probably would send the non phantom to go against Whisper and let Echo deal with the escorts, which is what I did in a local tourney.

Ultimately, I'm going to start trying Whisper, now that I've logged dozens of Echo time. Who knows, maybe I may switch permanently.

The Phantoms will resurge when the Falcons die down, and the Falcons will die down when people start playing firepower squads a lot again. The Falcons are only here as a kneejerk reaction to all the screaming of "OP PHANTOM!" and the similar kneejerk disappearance of swarms.

The Phantoms will resurge when the Falcons die down, and the Falcons will die down when people start playing firepower squads a lot again. The Falcons are only here as a kneejerk reaction to all the screaming of "OP PHANTOM!" and the similar kneejerk disappearance of swarms.

I don't know that I'd agree that it is just a kneejerk reaction though. I took second in a store tournament on the weekend with Whisper + two interceptors, I only lost to a HSF list and even that I could have won if I hadn't made some silly mistakes. Phantoms are just bananas good.

I just play both with a doomshuttle

I've run a couple of lists with Phantoms now, and they (all of them) are pretty deadly if you're careful with your flying. Flying a Phantom is a lot more like chess than I thought it would be. You really need to plan your moves ahead of time, and think a move or two ahead.

My current go to Phantom list is -

Whisper, VI, ACD

Echo, VI, ACD

RGP, PTL, HU

All 3 are deadly in their own right and arc dodge like a boss.

A variation that seems pretty successful is -

Echo, VI, ACD - (PS8)

Whisper, VI, Stygium - (PS9)

Soontir, PTL - (PS9)

It's a little more squishy without the Hull Upgrade on the Interceptor, but hey - it's the Baron!

I've always had a love for Interceptors, so I almost feel it's a must to include them alongside any Phantom list I build. Most of my opponents also have to really prioritize their targets this way as well. Woe be to the opponent who underestimates any of the components in a list like this.

But, truth be told, I don't necessarily think VI on the Phantoms is a must. I know the arguments about making sure you recloak before your opponent can hit you, but it's not as if your opponent doesn't have access to high(er) PS pilots so as to nullify the utility of Veteran Instincts. And in the event that you play against an opponent with lower PS (let's face it, 7 and 6 are pretty high native PS's as is), then those 2 points you save could be put into a FCS on Whisper or Fel.

I think the kneejerk reactions in this game are just that - kneejerk. Give it a bit, and we'll start to see more robust builds without the need for VI.

Echo + Decoy and Vader + VI, echo then shoots at ps 11.... but moves at ps 6. Go go intelligence agent

It is back to swarms, I think. With enough ships you can block the decloaking of phantoms and anybody who fields two falcons deserves to die a quick and horrible death against swarms.

echo is fun to fly, but you HAVE to use the 2 bank, and that takes more thought and planning and in a timed format, you are eating up that time with moves. alot easier to look down and see 2 rolls or 2 straight, vs banked moves

My question is has anyone even tried the generic phantoms? Everyone is running whisper/echo with VI and advanced cloaking but I've seen no one running normal phantoms. I've had good

Success with the following;

Shadow squadron + particle accelerator + FCS + intel agent

Shadow squadron + particle accelerator + FCS + intel agent

Academy pilot

Academy pilot

Academy pilot

Ok slightly more intelligent flying is required than playing ACD but the ship still works fine. Intel agent goes hand in hand with the phantom as 1) there are so many options in movement after setting your dial and 2) knowing where the higher ps guys are going to be let's you know if you need to cloak or not before they've been. People become so obsessed with chasing down the phantoms in this list the academies can really go to town, plus movement blocking lets you set up the phantom ambushes. It's worked great for me.

I've ran an alternative list featuring Yorr with ion cannon, rebel captive and tactician to some success too, but it doesn't have the options the 3 x academy list does. Obviously falcons are a problem, but playing ps 5 and below a lot of points spent on high ps is wasted by your opponent.

Anyone else had joy with the generic phantoms?

Echo + Decoy and Vader + VI, echo then shoots at ps 11.... but moves at ps 6. Go go intelligence agent

Building on that idea:

Echo + decoy

Vader + squad leader

It's a brain twisting notion because of the shifting PS from one to the other, but I think it works!

Whisper's post-shooting focus paired with an evade action makes him fairly durable.

I've used them with alot of succes.

2x sigma squadron with spa and recon spec, backstabber and a doom shuttle. They essentially played like an x wing times 11, on the decloak turn they have 2 focus and an evade, and the 4 attack is stupid strong. Backstabber gives you a third flanker so your deployment can be very loose, as well as a third closer that's fairly good.

I am finding myself debating dropping Echo in favor of Whisper, and it is simply due to the PS bid.

My main issue will be learning how do decloak a normal phantom! I have only ever run Echo!

It is solely because the only phantom builds that are getting used competitively are ACD phantoms and Whisper's PS is the only one high enough with VI to top the highest PS ships. If people start using phantoms in more creative ways things may change but ACD on Echo leaves you open to too many ships. I still say that phantoms are being played too one dimensionally right now but I rarely get to play competitively right now so I can't prove it.

Echo is fantastic against fighters but because of the high ps falcons her slippery moves lose alot of their punch.

My friend hates echo she never ends up where he thinks she will.

Echo is my girl! And I feel dirty debating Whisper, but competitively speaking, Whisper is more resilient then Echo. And on those days where you can't fly your Phantom too well, she still can get shots in on non-VI Han, Soontir, Coran etc. if she has initiative.

Echo is my girl! And I feel dirty debating Whisper, but competitively speaking, Whisper is more resilient then Echo. And on those days where you can't fly your Phantom too well, she still can get shots in on non-VI Han, Soontir, Coran etc. if she has initiative.

The funny thing is, when I get to pick initiative for Echo, it's always hard for me to pick to shoot first or move last. Ultimately I choose move last since that generally keeps me out of shots better than relying on the cloak.

I'll have to change my way of thinking with Whisper since his decloak is more predictable, so moving first is actually good since potentially fewer ships will block his decloak, and it lets him cloak and get that focus earlier.

I do really hate the fact that I might have to "cheat" on Echo though.