This weekend there was a tournament in Ottawa. Two people brought:

Chewie + Recon + C3P0 + MF title.

That thing can roll 3 evades. Its @#$&ing annoying.

Want the fat combo?

Chewbaca + PtL + C3P0 + Recon + MF

Leebo + Determination + Recon + Outrider + Flechette Cannon + Tactical Jammer.

Mark my words. This will be annoying as @#$&.

Yah, that combo sounds incredibly annoying.

This is reason #99 why every imperial list needs Rebel Captive or Tactician.

IPeregrine is, for the most part, nailing it here. It's an incredibly annoying combo when it works; when it doesn't, which is about 40% of the time, it's a Fat Chewie that doesn't really have offense.

As mentioned upthread, you can instead run Chewie + Predator + Threepio + Lando + Experimental Interface + Millennium Falcon, but that's a full 55 points, which constrains your escort choices narrowly. And, just like the OP's build, it's shut down by Flechette Torpedoes, Tactician, Rebel Captive, R3-A2, Imperial Kath + Marksmanship, and probably something else I'm not thinking of.

Dude you have no idea what yor talking about I called you out before with the c3po falcon z95 mini swarm list and you swore up and down it wasn't going to make a difference and said it was going to be the same as Han shoots first. I told you to wait and see as I dropped the conversation until the ships came out and you were proven flat out wrong. So don't sit here claiming more crap when people are showing you the numbers and your still lying to cover up how busted this build is becoming and rebel aces isn't even out yet which will make fat chewie even worse.

For anyone who's at risk of believing that Gungo knows what he or she (I'll assume he, on a statistical basis and for brevity) is talking about on any subject whatsoever, I'd suggest a brief review of his posting history. In particular, here, he says a ship with a 3/3/2/2 stat line should cost 16 points; here, he claims the Lambda isn't a competitive ship; and here, he not only jumps on the "we need new attack dice" bandwagon but equates disagreement with confrontation.

But let's review the thread you're referring to, shall we? I think this is the key post: you completely misunderstand the two cards you're claiming will be overpowered, distort my post on your way to a complete lack of comprehension of what I'm saying, and then to top it off you accused me not of being wrong, but of lying (one of several times you did so in that thread).

I was right then: substituting three Bandits with a couple of Ion Pulse Missiles for two Rookie Pilots in HSF isn't particularly powerful (nor have Ion Pulse Missiles proven particularly dangerous in tournaments). HSF with Headhunters has indeed become very popular, but I didn't say that it wouldn't--I said that Bandits and Threepio offer new options to HSF, without a substantial change to its power level.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to entertain a conversation over whether and how much of a power jump Threepio represents, because as more and more results come in it's clear that a lot of people see something there that I don't. I'm not going to have that conversation with you, however, because your post in this thread is just another example in a long line of evidence that doing so is a waste of my time.

As far as loading out Chewie, I like Predator + Luke/Gunner + C3PO + MF Title = 54/56 points.

Its pricey, but turns Chewie into a behemoth of death and destruction. You can Evade every turn giving you at least 2 evades and you don't have to worry about offensive actions. The combo of predator and Luke or Gunner will insure you are doing damage every turn. If you can squeeze in Luke it makes your 2nd attack even better. You get a TL lite and Focus lite. He's hard to focus down and he returns fire just as hard.

It's an incredibly annoying combo when it works; when it doesn't, which is about 40% of the time, it's a Fat Chewie that doesn't really have offense.

Vorpal, where are you getting that it doesn't work 40% of the time? I assume you're counting any option that doesn't include an evade on Lando?

Yeah, that's what I meant--although you're right that I neglected using focus to boost offense, and that does make the build look a little better to me.

For the record, since there's a good chance Gungo will pop back up in another six months: I think the crew version of Lando is a bad addition to the game. He's a defensive upgrade for a ship that doesn't need any more defensive upgrades; moreover, he's a defensive upgrade that's untouchable when it rolls well and worthless when it rolls poorly, which means it's impossible to assign an appropriate price.

But no matter how frustrating it is to play against, I hope it won't end up being all that popular. Given the number of cheap stress-generating upgrades that act as hard counters to PTL and Experimental Interface, it's going to be tough to justify him as a "mainstream" kind of upgrade--that is, Lando's not really broken as your only action, and if he starts getting abused it's pretty easy to shut down the Falcon's easiest options for double actions.

What I would really be afraid of is something like this:

Chewbacca (42)

Draw Their Fire (1)

Lando Calrissian (3)

C-3PO (3)

Experimental Interface (3)

Millennium Falcon (1)

Airen Cracken (19)

Biggs Darklighter (25)

R2-F2 (3)

Total: 100

Still not terribly heavy on offense, but defensively it's just a behemoth. First you have to kill Biggs, with Cracken effectively boosting his Agility and Chewie pulling crits away. When Biggs is dead then Cracken switches to turning on Lando, meaning you basically have to kill him before you kill Chewie, too. So you don't have to start using stress to activate Lando + Falcon title until both of your escorts are dead.

I don't think it's unbeatable, but I think killing it will be an un-fun slog every time.

Vorpal, that's a good example of building a list to mitigate weakness. The weakness of Experimental Interface being stress mechanics.

Vorpal, that Experimental Interface wont do anything. Reread the card.

Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action from an equipped Upgrade card with the "Action:" header. Then receive 1 stress token.

So you need to have an upgrade card with the following written on it. ACTION: Whatever.

So it will only work with the following upgrades:

Expert Handling

Daredevil

Marksmanship

Expose

Leebo

Saboteur

Lando

Everything else adds the icon to your action bar.

Otherwise you could have:

Turd + VI + Experimental Interface + Shield Upgrade

Fell + PtL + Shield Upgrade

Carnor + PtL + Shield Upgrade

Vorpal, that Experimental Interface wont do anything. Reread the card.

Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action from an equipped Upgrade card with the "Action:" header. Then receive 1 stress token.

So you need to have an upgrade card with the following written on it. ACTION: Whatever.

So it will only work with the following upgrades:

Expert Handling

Daredevil

Marksmanship

Expose

Leebo

Saboteur

Lando

Everything else adds the icon to your action bar.

Otherwise you could have:

Turd + VI + Experimental Interface + Shield Upgrade

Fell + PtL + Shield Upgrade

Carnor + PtL + Shield Upgrade

Are you talking about his build above? Lando uses it when needed above while the Falcon title takes the normal action.

Vorpal, that Experimental Interface wont do anything. Reread the card.

Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action from an equipped Upgrade card with the "Action:" header. Then receive 1 stress token.

So you need to have an upgrade card with the following written on it. ACTION: Whatever.

AlexW has it: in the build I proposed, Experimental Interface is used to activate Lando whenever you (a) need the extra defense, and (b) Cracken is dead or otherwise unavailable to turn Lando on.

Predator + Gunner is what makes these bloody Falcon lists so much of a threat, and there's just no room for Lando after Gunner+OP30 or Luke OP30.

Vorpal, that Experimental Interface wont do anything. Reread the card.

Once per round, after you perform an action, you may perform 1 free action from an equipped Upgrade card with the "Action:" header. Then receive 1 stress token.

So you need to have an upgrade card with the following written on it. ACTION: Whatever.

So it will only work with the following upgrades:

Expert Handling

Daredevil

Marksmanship

Expose

Leebo

Saboteur

Lando

Everything else adds the icon to your action bar.

Otherwise you could have:

Turd + VI + Experimental Interface + Shield Upgrade

Fell + PtL + Shield Upgrade

Carnor + PtL + Shield Upgrade

Right missed Lando on Vorpals build. My bad. Either way, its something to note, I have been seeing a lot of people talking about it incorrectly.

Since being spoiled I've had more concern over the Damage Reduction 3-5 Falcon than I ever had with the phantom.

A defender at range 1 of such a beast can roll ALL CRITS and the falcon doesn't care... it doesn't take damage.

As mentioned upthread, you can instead run Chewie + Predator + Threepio + Lando + Experimental Interface + Millennium Falcon, but that's a full 55 points, which constrains your escort choices narrowly. And, just like the OP's build, it's shut down by Flechette Torpedoes, Tactician, Rebel Captive, R3-A2, Imperial Kath + Marksmanship, and probably something else I'm not thinking of.

I may be missing something but how do flechette torps mess with the falcon?

Yah, that combo sounds incredibly annoying.This is reason #99 why every imperial list needs Rebel Captive or Tactician.

IPeregrine is, for the most part, nailing it here. It's an incredibly annoying combo when it works; when it doesn't, which is about 40% of the time, it's a Fat Chewie that doesn't really have offense.As mentioned upthread, you can instead run Chewie + Predator + Threepio + Lando + Experimental Interface + Millennium Falcon, but that's a full 55 points, which constrains your escort choices narrowly. And, just like the OP's build, it's shut down by Flechette Torpedoes, Tactician, Rebel Captive, R3-A2, Imperial Kath + Marksmanship, and probably something else I'm not thinking of.

Dude you have no idea what yor talking about I called you out before with the c3po falcon z95 mini swarm list and you swore up and down it wasn't going to make a difference and said it was going to be the same as Han shoots first. I told you to wait and see as I dropped the conversation until the ships came out and you were proven flat out wrong. So don't sit here claiming more crap when people are showing you the numbers and your still lying to cover up how busted this build is becoming and rebel aces isn't even out yet which will make fat chewie even worse.

But let's review the thread you're referring to, shall we? I think this is the key post: you completely misunderstand the two cards you're claiming will be overpowered, distort my post on your way to a complete lack of comprehension of what I'm saying, and then to top it off you accused me not of being wrong, but of lying (one of several times you did so in that thread).I was right then: substituting three Bandits with a couple of Ion Pulse Missiles for two Rookie Pilots in HSF isn't particularly powerful (nor have Ion Pulse Missiles proven particularly dangerous in tournaments). HSF with Headhunters has indeed become very popular, but I didn't say that it wouldn't--I said that Bandits and Threepio offer new options to HSF, without a substantial change to its power level.Now, I'm perfectly willing to entertain a conversation over whether and how much of a power jump Threepio represents, because as more and more results come in it's clear that a lot of people see something there that I don't. I'm not going to have that conversation with you, however, because your post in this thread is just another example in a long line of evidence that doing so is a waste of my time.

"Yes, I can honestly sit here with a straight face (although not all the time, because my three-month-old son keeps smiling at me, and it's hard not to smile back) and say that while adding Headhunters and Threepio to the game increases the options for running HSF, it definitely doesn't make it stronger."-vorpal sword.

You're a grown man vorpal sword start acting like one. Admit when you are clearly wrong instead of lying to cover up your nonsense.

One thing about Lando is since you still need to roll and Evade on the Defense die all you really are doing is getting 2 "bankable" evade dice per turn (if all you care about is the evades not the bonus of getting a focus) its almost like R2F2 except instead of the extra die be consistent it is a "burst" of defense that can be used when needed(and of course crew slots arguably being worth more than astromech slots)

Also if using Lando I would opt for Experimental Interface over PTL because then I can keep my EPT free for predator/VI or something more offensively useful.

As mentioned upthread, you can instead run Chewie + Predator + Threepio + Lando + Experimental Interface + Millennium Falcon, but that's a full 55 points, which constrains your escort choices narrowly. And, just like the OP's build, it's shut down by Flechette Torpedoes, Tactician, Rebel Captive, R3-A2, Imperial Kath + Marksmanship, and probably something else I'm not thinking of.

I may be missing something but how do flechette torps mess with the falcon?

Because if you already have a stress token, being attacked with Flechette Torpedoes mean you will have two stress tokens at the start of the following turn. So a ship with Push the Limit or Experimental Interface effectively can't use them, because taking a stress token is risky.

Please you attack the poster with your adhomin nonsense because you were wrong.

(1) It's ad hominem.

(2) Engaging in the ad hominem fallacy means bringing up irrelevant personal details as a way of engaging (or, rather, not engaging) with an argument. The fact that you have an extensive history of being wrong about balance issues in X-wing is, pretty much by definition, relevant to a discussion of balance issues in X-wing.

An ad hominem attack might look more like this: "Why should I bother arguing with someone whose spelling and punctuation would embarrass a typical sixth-grader?" I'm not saying that, you understand; I'm just providing an illustration.

...and are clearly wrong considering 6 of the top 8 builds at the German nationals one of the last tournaments were all falcon variants.

It was no more than five of the top 8, according to this thread, and only one of those made it to the top 4. What's your point? The Australian Nationals had just one Fat Falcon in the top 8, which ended up in second place overall; the US Nationals had four in the top 8, of which two made it to the top 4; the Nordic championships had just one Falcon in the top 8, although it won; the French top 8 had just one Threepio, who was eliminated in the quarterfinal; in Italy there were none in the top 8.

In six National tournaments, then, there were 12 Threepio builds in the top 8--about 25% of Top 8 builds. But there were 5 Threepio builds that made it to the Top 4, down to 21%, and just one tournament winner (1/6 = 12.5%). That says to me that lots of people are running Fat Falcons of various builds, and that they're fairly consistent.

(Only half of those Threepio builds, by the way, were run in conjunction with 3-4 Headhunters; guess how many of those Headhunters were running Ion Pulse Missiles.)

But again, I never said that Falcon lists wouldn't be good in Wave 4. After all, HSF is a good list! I played it a lot in Wave 2, and I still like it, and it's a good matchup against Phantoms. But how much those results would have changed if, for instance, that Han + Bandits list in the German top 4 had used Chewbacca instead of Threepio?

Instead of admitting you were wrong you still claim it's different options and only now start to say everyone else sees something you don't.

I think Chewbacca is about as effective as Threepio over the likely span of a game, and more consistent; almost no one seems to agree. That suggests that either I'm right and everyone else is wrong (possible, but unlikely), or I'm not seeing something that makes Threepio strikingly more valuable (frustrating, but ultimately more probable).

Exactly what more are you expecting in terms of a concession? I'm not going to say I was wrong about Headhunters: three Headhunters are definitely not more powerful than a pair of X-wings or B-wings, and having seen a number of Fat Falcons in action, I think there's actually a good argument for bringing the bigger guns instead. And I'm also not going to say I'm wrong about Bandits mounting Ion Pulse Missiles, either.

You don't need to have this conversation with me because all you do is attack people who disagree with you...

Yeah, I was a little ranty and foul-mouthed when AlexW caught me in a mistake upthread. I'm sorry I said that about his grandmother, and the bit about the horse was definitely over the top.

My posting history here--like everyone else's--is an open book. I do often disagree with people, sometimes stridently, but I do at least try to make it about what people have said rather than who they are. When I've made mistakes along those lines, I try to apologize, and try to avoid doing it again. If you'd like, or anyone else, you can feel free to check.

And now for a little bit of tu quoque: When I disagreed with you, back in February, you accused me multiple times of lying--not of being wrong, or having a different opinion or expectation, but of lying. Where's my apology for that personal slur? Or, come to think of it, the same accusation in this thread?

and still don't admit your failures after I dropped the conversation and said we will wait and see what happens when the cards are released because you were to hard headed to listen. Well we waited and you were proven wrong. And once again someone shows you lando crew and how it's going to make this rebel build better and you argue even when faced with stats showing you otherwise.

I'm not sure what stats you're referring to, and in fact I'm not sure how the characterization you're drawing here applies to anything I've said in this thread.

I don't have anything else to prove to you at this point. The fact is you can keep claiming that fat Chewie is only an option over Han shoots first...

When did I say that?

...and not substantially more powerful but the current tournament results explicitly proves your bias wrong.

Except that they don't.

That post had little to do about the missiles I explicitly stated the falcon, c3po, falcon title, and a z95 mini swarm with whatever points left over into missiles. This was when the previews were first released and not even every card was spoiled.

Both of the cards you badly misunderstood had been spoiled, though.

You can try to obfuscate the issue all you want...

Yeah, that's definitely the right way to describe my behavior--particularly the way I cleverly disguised my own ineptitude by linking to the thread in question and inviting people to go read it.

And you continue to be stubborn and fail to admit how you could not see the impact that build has made on tournaments.

It's a very popular tournament build, but popularity is not the same thing as mechanical power. I don't know how to say that any more clearly.

Because if you already have a stress token, being attacked with Flechette Torpedoes mean you will have two stress tokens at the start of the following turn. So a ship with Push the Limit or Experimental Interface effectively can't use them, because taking a stress token is risky.

Stress torps don't do anything (other than the 3 attack dice) to YT-1300s because they have more than 4 hull. Of course the point is true for all of the other stress sources.

Because if you already have a stress token, being attacked with Flechette Torpedoes mean you will have two stress tokens at the start of the following turn. So a ship with Push the Limit or Experimental Interface effectively can't use them, because taking a stress token is risky.

Stress torps don't do anything (other than the 3 attack dice) to YT-1300s because they have more than 4 hull. Of course the point is true for all of the other stress sources.

Oops--good call.

ETA: Double oops; I don't think my opponent in my most recent game remembered the Hull restriction on Flechettes, either.

I don't have anything else to prove to you at this point. The fact is you can keep claiming that fat Chewie is only an option over Han shoots first...

I actually edited my post after I realized I got pulled into your rant. However the below post is the exact reason we had that last debate. And I said you can't honestly sit there with a straight face and say those cards z95 and 3po doesn't make the falcon builds much stronger. You continued to claim it wasn't and was only a different option.

"Yes, I can honestly sit here with a straight face (although not all the time, because my three-month-old son keeps smiling at me, and it's hard not to smile back) and say that while adding Headhunters and Threepio to the game increases the options for running HSF, it definitely doesn't make it stronger."-vorpal sword.

My belief is that awing refits will be a better mini swarm for the fat falcon and this build will get more powerful and I don't see this changing until swarm builds come back since those are c3po and the falcons biggest weakness right now. Scum and villainy will shake that up with its cheaper ships. The fat falcon is more powerful and I said that back in March during the initial previews. It was no point arguing with you then about it because they were being released regardless so I said just wait and see. At this point this build doesn't need anymore help and it will only get better with the aces release.

Yah, that combo sounds incredibly annoying.

This is reason #99 why every imperial list needs Rebel Captive or Tactician.

IPeregrine is, for the most part, nailing it here. It's an incredibly annoying combo when it works; when it doesn't, which is about 40% of the time, it's a Fat Chewie that doesn't really have offense.

As mentioned upthread, you can instead run Chewie + Predator + Threepio + Lando + Experimental Interface + Millennium Falcon, but that's a full 55 points, which constrains your escort choices narrowly. And, just like the OP's build, it's shut down by Flechette Torpedoes, Tactician, Rebel Captive, R3-A2, Imperial Kath + Marksmanship, and probably something else I'm not thinking of.

Also by landing on asteroids.