The Lightsaber forms are nicely summarized in "The Jedi Path" book, and extensively on Wookieepedia. I even did a 7-part look at them for the final episodes of the SAGA-edition of the Order 66 podcast. Maybe I should get them linked somewhere...

That's actually the thing I least like about F&D so far -- I despise the very concept of the " Forms " as artificial bull which reminds me way too much of McDojos...

The Lightsaber forms are nicely summarized in "The Jedi Path" book, and extensively on Wookieepedia. I even did a 7-part look at them for the final episodes of the SAGA-edition of the Order 66 podcast. Maybe I should get them linked somewhere...

That's actually the thing I least like about F&D so far -- I despise the very concept of the " Forms " as artificial bull which reminds me way too much of McDojos...

Do you despise that there's Kenjitsu, Italian Longsword, Fencing, Chinesse Broadsword, German Longsword, Eskrima, and rapier dueling?

Because those, my friend, are effectively lightsaber forms.

No one's out there with the "Little Acklay Makashi School". But Makashi is an entirely different style than Djem So. And Ataru. These "forms" codefy that in line with the established fiction that's out there.

There might be 15 different styles of Ataru, based on physiology and ideology just like there are variants of German Longsword combat, but it's still all lumped under "Ataru". And that's a different style (and now Characteristic) than Shii-Cho. Or Niman.

I don't despise any of the EU stuff being incorporated per se, beyond FU of course, but honestly I wouldn't know an Ataru from a Soresu if they bit me on my buccaneer behind.....doesn't impact whether I have fun with it.

The Lightsaber forms are nicely summarized in "The Jedi Path" book, and extensively on Wookieepedia. I even did a 7-part look at them for the final episodes of the SAGA-edition of the Order 66 podcast. Maybe I should get them linked somewhere...

That's actually the thing I least like about F&D so far -- I despise the very concept of the " Forms " as artificial bull which reminds me way too much of McDojos...

Why? Most martial arts (including fencing and other weaponized combat styles) have a variety of forms, styles, or sub-disciplines. It would weird if we didn't have something akin to that. And, just like in real life, some of the greatest masters are those who study and blend multiple forms.

The very idea of them as static forms/styles as opposed to mere principles of combat is what feels so artificial about them, and I don't see it so much as blending the forms themselves as individual techniques from them while a 'quality' Jedi weaponmaster would be able to fluidly shift between 'principles' (and thus techniques) on the fly... though I like the Wookieepedia line that declares mastery in " grasping the concepts and philosophy of the form rather than adhering to its tactics and maneuvers " in approaching what I'm thinking of.

(For example, it feels less " artificial "/immersion-breaking for me to describe Obi-Wan as a guy who -- after the understandable trauma of watching a more aggressive Jedi's downfall -- focused on counterattacking, conservation of energy, aversion to " flashy " moves, and 'combat' mind tricks or subtle ploys to help with creating the necessary openings and to keep the opponent(s) from gaining/maintaining initiative against him, rather than slapping a " Form III: Soresu " shorthand on it.)

... and now I just imagined Qui-Gon as having " when all you have is flippity-doo, every arena looks like a wide-open space " syndrome.

P.S. I actually really do like the idea of an Obi-Wan who was using mind tricks way more than he let on, particularly in lightsaber combat...

It would be the same thing as someone with a background in a very aggressive martial arts style that relies heavily on punching and kicking (Jeet Kun Do maybe?) deciding that they want to focus on learning how to use their opponent's size and moment against themselves and trying to conserve energy, so they go study Jujitsu.

If you studied both, you could blend them together, yes, but you'd also probably also find yourself shifting stances and tactics to favor one style or another, since you don't use the same footwork, positioning, or spacing for both of them.

How is that different from the lightsaber forms? Calling them principles or forms or techniques all basically amounts to the same thing.

In the Obi-Wan case, the description was way less " deciding to focus on defense " and more deciding that Ataru flat-out didn't work for him (I've read one characterization of it as him deciding that Ataru was fatally flawed... though that begged the question of why he let other Jedi stick to it) and thereby changing up his whole approach*... as for how the idea can differ from the forms as presented, I'm thinking of how the forms are treated as static things in-universe by the Jedi culture...

Then again, the Jedi Order was so kriffed by that point that I say kriff 'em and kriff the New Jedi Order for even paying them that much lip service by veering towards mirroring it instead of what Luke and company had come up with in the RL years before the prequels... and burn their house down. Oh wait ...

(But yeah, the very idea seems dogmatic, though a tendency to dogma is among the negative tendencies of the Order as of the prequel years.)

* It'd be stretching, but I'm left thinking of a formerly aggressive/high-action fighter who gets way more " gun shy " after getting KTFO (or in his case watching Qui-Gon go down)... though Obi-Wan clearly worked around/trained against the tendency for such fighters to give up/not strive for the initiative.

If you studied both, you could blend them together, yes, but you'd also probably also find yourself shifting stances and tactics to favor one style or another, since you don't use the same footwork, positioning, or spacing for both of them.

I fence foil, I learned off a very classical French trained master. She constantly corrects small problems in my guard position, stance and so on. My current coach also uses the French style, but is somewhat less classical having spent some time learning in Hungary. We do all sorts of unusual techniques which are so far left of field my first coach would never have taught the techniques. I would also have learned a different method had I a master that was Italian trained.

I have also started to learn sabre (the Olympic kind) and it has quite a separate range of techniques and challenges.

Epee which is the closest fencers have to a duelling sword and it is different yet again.

You are dead right, the footwork, hand position and position all changes. While some of this is bound to be the difference in the rules between the various weapons, some of the differences are fundamental to the use of the weapon.

Another thing to consider is we are also dealing with aliens that may not have the same hand shape as a human which would also give rise to strange and unusual techniques as their grip would be fundamentally different or their foot stance would be. Body shape too would account for a variation in technique, long arms and short legs etc.

I fence foil, I learned off a very classical French trained master. She constantly corrects small problems in my guard position, stance and so on. My current coach also uses the French style, but is somewhat less classical having spent some time learning in Hungary. We do all sorts of unusual techniques which are so far left of field my first coach would never have taught the techniques. I would also have learned a different method had I a master that was Italian trained.

As a martial artist, to me the lightsaber forms were a way for someone who nothing about martial arts, or fighting styles to pigeonhole a character with "Maneuvers" and is entirely created for video games, which to me, make a mockery of any canon for sake of gameplay. The people who clutch to the Lightsaber forms as a life preserver act like they know something when they don't.

"His high guard defenses were flawless against a one handed attacker trying to disarm him with precision feints and thrusts, he knew that one mistep would be the attackers doom"

Is so much better then:

"His Soresu style defense was no match for the feeble Makashi attacks"

The previous example i can easily visualize what happens, and I am reminded of Anakin vs Dooku in Attack of the clones after Obi-wan got knocked out, with just a single well describe sentence.

"Forms" doesn't make it romantic"doesn't reminds me of swashbuckling, it doesn't remind me of the Epic Duels we have seen in star wars or the typical give and take in a sparring match.

But after listening to the Podcast (the first one I bothered to listen to) I have a new respect for the Forms and how they are used in the game and add more "Flavor" to combat instead of making cookie cutter Jedi.

As a martial artist, to me the lightsaber forms were a way for someone who nothing about martial arts, or fighting styles to pigeonhole a character with "Maneuvers" and is entirely created for video games, which to me, make a mockery of any canon for sake of gameplay. The people who clutch to the Lightsaber forms as a life preserver act like they know something when they don't.

"His high guard defenses were flawless against a one handed attacker trying to disarm him with precision feints and thrusts, he knew that one mistep would be the attackers doom"

Is so much better then:

"His Soresu style defense was no match for the feeble Makashi attacks"

The previous example i can easily visualize what happens, and I am reminded of Anakin vs Dooku in Attack of the clones after Obi-wan got knocked out, with just a single well describe sentence.

"Forms" doesn't make it romantic"doesn't reminds me of swashbuckling, it doesn't remind me of the Epic Duels we have seen in star wars or the typical give and take in a sparring match.

But after listening to the Podcast (the first one I bothered to listen to) I have a new respect for the Forms and how they are used in the game and add more "Flavor" to combat instead of making cookie cutter Jedi.

The hard part is not a problem of the words used. it is a problem of not having a really good visual for what each style looks like and why they work the way they do. Those of us who are familiar with real world martial arts can see them. We just have trouble seeing how the fake ones fit what we know.

In the case of the Forms, I've always seen those as really being more of a philosophy of combat rather than a strictly proscribed set of moves and techniques.

Of course, in the real world we've got multiple variations of kung fu, some of which a very different from others; there's a world of difference between Wing Chun and Drunken Boxing and Northern Shaolin, yet all three are considered forms of kung fu. And yet, nobody raises a huge stink in an RPG if it incorporates the various styles of martial arts into separate forms, but those same folks throw a hissy-fit over a space fantasy setting going with a fairly realistic approach of not everyone using the exact same style and moves for a make-believe weapon.

Man, we gamers are a screwed-up bunch of geeks

As a martial artist, to me the lightsaber forms were a way for someone who nothing about martial arts, or fighting styles to pigeonhole a character with "Maneuvers" and is entirely created for video games, which to me, make a mockery of any canon for sake of gameplay. The people who clutch to the Lightsaber forms as a life preserver act like they know something when they don't.

"His high guard defenses were flawless against a one handed attacker trying to disarm him with precision feints and thrusts, he knew that one mistep would be the attackers doom"

Is so much better then:

"His Soresu style defense was no match for the feeble Makashi attacks"

The previous example i can easily visualize what happens, and I am reminded of Anakin vs Dooku in Attack of the clones after Obi-wan got knocked out, with just a single well describe sentence.

"Forms" doesn't make it romantic"doesn't reminds me of swashbuckling, it doesn't remind me of the Epic Duels we have seen in star wars or the typical give and take in a sparring match.

But after listening to the Podcast (the first one I bothered to listen to) I have a new respect for the Forms and how they are used in the game and add more "Flavor" to combat instead of making cookie cutter Jedi.

The hard part is not a problem of the words used. it is a problem of not having a really good visual for what each style looks like and why they work the way they do. Those of us who are familiar with real world martial arts can see them. We just have trouble seeing how the fake ones fit what we know.

I think the most iconic is the duel between Yoda and Dooku. Ataru was yoda spinning and leaping all over the place. Dooku was much more "fencing" and elegant.

In the case of the Forms, I've always seen those as really being more of a philosophy of combat rather than a strictly proscribed set of moves and techniques.

And yet, nobody raises a huge stink in an RPG if it incorporates the various styles of martial arts into separate forms, but those same folks throw a hissy-fit over a space fantasy setting going with a fairly realistic approach of not everyone using the exact same style and moves for a make-believe weapon.

@ Gigerstreak: I'll certainly agree, that was the one lightsaber duel that visually demonstrated a difference most immediately.

Also I would like to point out that Fencing, and Kendo have been so steeped in tradition, that they are impractical for real combat. I have had personal experience with this styles and realized i was just learning a form of art.

For fencing everyone was doing point in line stances. arms full extended and the point at thier opponent, and just stood there. There was only ONE move to make against that was a successful beat and lunge. that was it. hundreds of years of tradition watered down to 3 moves.

For Kendo, I had to take a step forward AND yell out what I was going to strike in order for it to count.

It wasn't until I took a seminar in Modern Arnis (Philipino stick fighting) with (the now late) Grandmaster Remy Presas, that I finally found how to use Swords, and knives. it was GLORIOUS. There is nothing more then the thrill of an attack followed by 20 counters as the two opponents are not even thinking but reacting. Even tho I was using two 28" rattan sticks the striking and parry techniques are easily translated to any blade, from knives to longswords.

Every martial artist start with a style, but as the progress to the closest thing to perfection they realize they are doing the same thing with just different stances and names. There is no reason you need to slap a "Form" label on a character and say that is good.