I guess the rest of your squad is AMAZING and mine is just hapless? If you are focus firing my Decimator, the rest of my ships are at full health. You aren't going to eat red dice from half a squad and still have 60% of your squad be 60% of your squad after two rounds of fire.

But my point isn't that one is clearly superior. I don't think one is. But you acted as if the OP's suggestion was just outlandish and likely stupid, which it is not. I might think it favors the Decimator squad a bit, and you might argue it favors the Phantom squad a bit, but it isn't worthy of scorn, which is the point I'm trying to get across.

Hmmm, I shouldn't of used mine in my example. Seems that I upset you, not sure why but I did. Sorry about that. This was never meant to be an attack, but rather what to expect. Nor did I say it was outlandish or that my squad is amazing. I mean I even tell the OP to try it in my first post:

Which I will stand by. It is never a good thing to use 50% (most builds will be closer to 60%) to counter a single ship (of 37%, using my preferred build of Echo), namely a single named unique of that ship. Especially once you have done what you want with that ship, and it being on the receiving end of at least 2 attack rounds as well from the phantom (A VI Echo will have been able to shoot at the same time or before all VTs, unless you VI the VT) which would be another 0-8 damage to the VT, its only going to last another round against the rest of your opponents squad IF it hasn't already taken some fire from the support already. Meaning you aren't going to get a lot more out of that 50ish point investment.

So now, you have done some damage to a squad which was about 62% without echo to fight a more then likely full health 40-52% of your team. If you haven't done enough damage to that squad by the time your VT is down, it is an uphill battle, because even if you scored some damage, they still have (unless critted) fully functioning ships.

Now to me, in a game of playing the odds and tactical out maneuvering, I wouldn't want to sacrifice such a pricey piece of equipment. In the long run, it wont be worth it, especially against varied lists of different opponents in a tournament.

Ah the old Squad A on paper beats Squad B on paper debate. Get to some playtesting and share the results! Number crunching is one thing, but games obviously never play out that way. Even if the VT list is great against a Phantom can it actually bring down other lists reliably?

And as far as green dice go, dodging is for cowards! Run through the blaster fire like its raindrops!

I am completely down for this, once I get my ships or if some one wants to try this out on vassal.

The Decimator won't be all that different from the current turret ships.

Just have to change up your strategy.

A decimator vs phantom squad both have the same chance to win.

It all matters what each opponent does.

Strategy I use against Falcons o think will still work against a decimator.

Throw my ties at it.

Now he can ignore them and have it torn apart by them, and maybe or he will focus on them.

Echo can stay at range 2 and 3 easier than ant other ship

The other current turret ships don't guarantee killing a Phantom in 2 turns, they're still subject to dice. The Decimator will kill a Phantom 100% of the time every time in 2 turns, which isn't a long time in X-Wing time. In a dice game, certainty trumps randomness. You get a minimum of 4 and a maximum of 10 red dice with the Phantom. Drop a shot or roll poorly, and you lose the game.

The Decimator will trump the Phantom every time. It's also really obvious that the TIE swarm is going to go head-on for the large ship. This makes it ridiculously easy to dodge arcs.

I think building a strategy around purposely hurting your own ship that costs half of your list to counter another specific ship is a bad idea. Take it into a tourney and tell us how you get on.

It's not a strategy. It's a tactic. In a worse case scenario, you have to use Vader all four times to guarantee the kill. You could go anywhere from 1-shotting the Phantom with the first volley (4 blanks vs 4 hits), unlikely but possible, or more likely doing 1 hit + Vader, 1 hit + Vader.

Your general strategy with any large ship is to dodge arcs and play for the late game where you're invincible with 1 green and 1 evade each turn.

Regardless, the point is named Phantoms will be all but unplayable once Darthcimator becomes available.

The reason this matters is because Phantom + Interceptor / Miniswarm is a strong build dominating the meta right now, which the Decimator utterly destroys.

You don't have to take it to a tournament to know it's effective, it's readily apparent. In any case, pairings and basic piloting are just as big factors in a tournament, saying 'take it to a tournament and tell us how you get on' doesn't mean anything, because ten different people can take the same list to a tournament and get vastly different results.

I was expecting this thread to be about Decimator with Rebel Captive. No Advanced Cloak makes the phantom really vulnerable.

Captive relies on you getting shot by the Phantom first, and Yorr exists to suck stress. Captive is a better all-round build, possibly on the other Decimators.

8-10 games with the non Kenkirks, 6-7 with the big K

Then I suppose my question is--granting that the non-Kenkirk Decimators aren't effective--why you think that's happening. Mathematically it looks a lot like a named YT-1300 in terms of overall durability, and (even without the Falcon title, and in the pre-Threepio days) they did just fine.

Possibly to do with the way they are flown; Oincunn relies on getting in your face, and hence he's going to take a lot of range 1 attacks of which he has no defence against. It's thus easier to reliably kill him off in 1-2 turns (notice the key word reliability; you know how many guns to point since you can guarantee taking the remaining hull off him left.) Chiraneau has the same weakness but flies a little more defensively so lasts a little longer. Also considering the deadliness of Vader+Gunner, Chiraneau just doesn't leave you enough points to support with.

When the game degenerates into a 1v1 at the end with the Decimator as the last ship standing, getting two evades each turn is huge compared to getting just one with Isard.

Has anyone tried lower PS Decimators with Vader (crew)? I'm talking about using it to either:

A) Activate Kenkirk's ability faster (considering cutting your own shields off in effect. But for *something*)

B) To make an easier to use doom shuttle (and arguably more durable).

The point of Kenkirk's ability is to get you up when you are down, not to carry you the whole game. It is a very bad idea to try and actively activate it sooner rather than let it happen naturally.

Activating Kenkirk isn't the point, it's activating Isard. Although activating Kenkirk is part of it; rolling 1 evade vs multiple attacks in a round is much better than rolling 0; you want to activate it as soon as possible so you go into a combat round with it active rather than end a round with it on. It's also possible to take 4-5 points of damage before it can trigger so having Kenkirk + Isard active can save you 2hp; the potential HP loss total is only 3-4.

With Vader you're also severely cutting short the damage output of your opponent, not to mention the possibilities of Blinded Pilots/ Weapon Malfunctions/ loss of actions due to Stress, Console Fire, what not. If you can spend 8HP to kill a ship (Phantom for example) and limit it to shooting twice (4-10 potential damage) by killing it quickly you're reducing the total damage potential. This should be blindingly obvious.

You know a squadron I want to try, it won't be a good one but the decimator fortress. get 2 decimators and face them together. Okay aliance pilots, the Imperials have a hidden base in the asteroid belt a small sentry station needs to be destroyed.

Has anyone tried lower PS Decimators with Vader (crew)? I'm talking about using it to either:

A) Activate Kenkirk's ability faster (considering cutting your own shields off in effect. But for *something*)

B) To make an easier to use doom shuttle (and arguably more durable).

The point of Kenkirk's ability is to get you up when you are down, not to carry you the whole game. It is a very bad idea to try and actively activate it sooner rather than let it happen naturally.

If I had exactly 0 shields and 0 damage cards and was expecting any fire, and I had Ysanne, I might drive him over an asteroid. If I take a damage, I get an evade from Ysanne which will save me a damage later. Then I get the added bonus of having 1 agility die. But since his ability is "instant-on" unlike Ysanne, there is no benefit to tripping it intentionally early without her. And since Vader goes off during combat, and Ysanne activates at the beginning of combat, there is really no reason to trip it on purpose with Vader.

In that case sure, but I don't think that's what the poster I responded to was thinking.

tried some dice experimenting: Assumed Phantom + 5 Ties versus VT + 3 ties.

i dont like the odds of it at all. Ysanne doesn't kick in the first round at all. so youre a sitting duck there. After rolling all the dice, with normal luck, i was down to 3 or 5 hull from 16.

Dice experimentation isn't very helpful in a vacuum and also if you fly your Decimator out in front of 5 TIES you're going to lose. With EU you should be able to dodge at least 3 of the 5 TIEs each turn, if not more, especially if you deploy asteroids favourably.

In two games with Kenkirk+TIEs vs the Nationals list today both Whisper and Soontir died after 4 rounds of combat. There was no counterplay available as once Whisper went down in combat round 2, Soontir couldn't put out the damage necessary to finish Kenkirk off and it was absurdly easy to dodge Yorr's arc.

The TIEs running traffic also severely limited the options of the two Ace ships giving Kenkirk plenty of options.

In any case, the fall of Phantoms means the rise of Defenders. All hail the Rexnaissance!

Having already played against decimators twice I can tell you if they are not blowing up a ship every turn they are a waste of points

... the Phantom Menace?

i see what you did there...

Dice experimentation isn't very helpful in a vacuum and also if you fly your Decimator out in front of 5 TIES you're going to lose. With EU you should be able to dodge at least 3 of the 5 TIEs each turn, if not more, especially if you deploy asteroids favourably.

In two games with Kenkirk+TIEs vs the Nationals list today both Whisper and Soontir died after 4 rounds of combat. There was no counterplay available as once Whisper went down in combat round 2, Soontir couldn't put out the damage necessary to finish Kenkirk off and it was absurdly easy to dodge Yorr's arc.

The TIEs running traffic also severely limited the options of the two Ace ships giving Kenkirk plenty of options.

Unless you are using the base Decimator with no upgrades, you are not getting one with 5 TIEs. Sounds like you are running Kenkirk, so..... See how it runs with 4 Academies.

Has anyone tried lower PS Decimators with Vader (crew)? I'm talking about using it to either:

A) Activate Kenkirk's ability faster (considering cutting your own shields off in effect. But for *something*)

B) To make an easier to use doom shuttle (and arguably more durable).

The point of Kenkirk's ability is to get you up when you are down, not to carry you the whole game. It is a very bad idea to try and actively activate it sooner rather than let it happen naturally.

If I had exactly 0 shields and 0 damage cards and was expecting any fire, and I had Ysanne, I might drive him over an asteroid. If I take a damage, I get an evade from Ysanne which will save me a damage later. Then I get the added bonus of having 1 agility die. But since his ability is "instant-on" unlike Ysanne, there is no benefit to tripping it intentionally early without her. And since Vader goes off during combat, and Ysanne activates at the beginning of combat, there is really no reason to trip it on purpose with Vader.

In that case sure, but I don't think that's what the poster I responded to was thinking.

No, what I was going for was the idea that using Vader on a deci (specifically a Kenkirk deci) would have the cost of Vader offset by the abilities gained from losing your shields. The thought process included using Vader on a lower PS deci to try to maximize its potential (hopefully causing crits against hull).

I'm curious as to the net gain of losing shields vs gaining Kenkirk's ability and doing some damage with Vader. Keep in mind, I'm not suggesting the mindless use of Vader, I'm just wondering if it makes it desirable to use given that you gain such powerful triggers on the Deci.

Either that, or making what I can only describe as an easier to use Doomshuttle (with the intent to use the Vader ability more sparingly because more of the list is involved). Presumably using the ability only to guarantee a coup de grace or to cripple harder to hit ships.

Most lists revolve around a lynchpin ship be it Howlie or Phantoms. Crushimators are the end of star-ship lists, especially Imperial ones.

Most lists revolve around a lynchpin ship be it Howlie or Phantoms. Crushimators are the end of star-ship lists, especially Imperial ones.

Unless the howlie list also has 6-7 other tie fighters. Then the crushimator will just melt like expected. ;-)

It's not hugely difficult to dodge arcs if they're all in formation.

It's not hugely difficult to dodge arcs if they're all in formation.

The problem is when they break formation and cover a lot of arcs. All you need is 3-4 of them to be on you with focus, and you'll be taking a good amount of damage even if they roll average.