What is the difference between ciphers and secret tongues? To us they seem to basically do the same thing. Do you need to be able to read and write to use ciphers? We had similar ''discussions'' over signes and languages in WFRP.

Secret tongues are generally more elaborate than Ciphers. A cipher is used for conveying basic information while you could likely hold an entire conversation in a secret tongue, assuming its subject is somewhat relevant to the developers (no discussing Thorian philosophy in Secret Tongue (Gutter)...).

What Cifer says would be the way the RAW handles them, yes. I wasn't satisfied with that treatment of the two however as it seems a touch clumsy.

My unofficial way of handling the two is this:

I treat ciphers as they really are in the real world, as codes, the kind that you need a Golly Gee Wiz Secret Decoder Ring to decipher (see... de cipher the cipher) etc. Ciphers usually can not be used instantaneously as once the message is delivered (in what ever form it takes) it must be deciphered by the recipient. Having the skill such as Ciphers (acolyte) simply means the character knows the code to break the cipher but he or she still must take the time to decode the message.

Secret Tongues, however, are just that, code words, slang, innuendo, jargon, and references that only certain individuals know (usually within a certain enclave, social status, profession, or society). They aren't a language unto themselves, but they are close. As such, a conversation can be had in the secret tongue by two individuals who know it as no codding and decoding has to happen but, all in all, they aren't quite as secure as, and are far less formal then a cipher.

That is, of course, completely unofficial, but it makes more sense to me then it's current setup.

Ciphers also include various non-verbal, non-written cues and methods of communication, whereas secret tongues are exactly that, tongues.

The book is pretty clear to me....

Cyphers: "This information can be in the form of hand signals or as physical symbols inscribed on a surface, usually a subtle place." (p99)

Secret Tongue: "Secret tongue is used to speak and comprehend a particulary obscure and arcane language known only to those of a specific profession, organization, or class."

Mobsters talking to each other is secret tongue.

Mobster adusting his tie then checking his jacket inside pocket is a cypher. (probably meaning "guy I'm watching has gun under his coat."

Sgt to his squad, fingers to eyes, points to the right front, then points to pvt Ambo, and then left, then to pvt Bobert and right, then double points where he originally looked. Ambo breaks left, Bobert breaks right, surrounding the guy Sgt pointed to. That's Cyphers.

Forward observer to arty battery via radio "battery alpha, Oscar Poppa charlie 5, call Grid 56773 by 98344, Disperse charlie sierra, 1 batt round charlie bravo mike. will correct. over." (Alpha, Observation point C5, asking for fire on the location marked on the maps as 56773N x 98344E, coverged sheaf, every gun firce once using cluster bomblet munition. I'll tell you how far off they land. Your turn to talk")

Arty battery replies "Charlie 5, Grid 56773 by 98344 charlie sierra charlie bravo mike 1 round, 3 sec mark. waiting correction. over." (Ok, charlie 5, we're sending to 56773 North by 98344 east a coverged sheaf of cluster bomblet munitions, 1 shot per gun, expect them 3 seconds from now. Ready for another round when you tell us how far off we landed. Your turn to talk."

Both FO and Arty using secret tongue.

Navy signalman on radio: uses Secret language. Radio out, sending morse with the light gun, that's cyphers. Light gun out, sending message by flags, also cyphers.