Sooo feint is a standard attack action... what good is it then?

when dueling things like eldars in melee with an incredible dodge, you can basicly make have as many attacks as usual , but the eldar can dodge 80% of your attacks normally, and thus since 50% is lower than 80% its maximizes the average damage to the eldar.

I think its pretty clear from the rules. Since Feint is a half action, you can use it instead of an aim action for example. If you win the opposed WS test your opponent gets no dodge or parry, if you lose, you make your standard attack as normal.

As Saurius said, its very good against creatures with high agility and dodge capabilities.

problem is:

aim goes under Miscellanious actions and feint under standard attack. and you can't make 2 standard attacks in one round, right? it's like: you can't use psyker powers and shoot in the same round.

vogue69 said:

Ah-ha! That would be your problem. You've got it backwards. A Standard Attack (pg 191) is an action under the attacks catagory, not the other way arround. You can only make the Standard Attack half action (pg 191) once per round, but you can make various different Atack actions as long as they are both different and take half an action or less.

Graver said:

So, why are the actions divided in attack actions and other actions? *confused*

Graver said:

I have been a bit confused myself on this point(the whole new ruling for psychic powers). The book to me reads exactly like you state, you can not make the exact same half action twice in the same round. That being the only limitation on using combinations of half actions.

Yet in the errata it says this for Physic powers:

The first paragraph in the Using Psychic Powers section
starting on page 161 should include the addition: “Making a
Focus Power Action is the psychic equivalent of a Standard Attack
Action, and counts as such for purposes of determining what else
a psyker can do in a round. Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half
Action power cannot make another Half Action Standard Attack
on the same round. A Psyker may manifest only one ability per
Round with the exception of the Resist Possession power. A Psyker
is required to roll at least one die to manifest an ability.”

Now if it means any attack, that would got against said previously mention rules and it does specially say standard attack action not attack action. So you cant make a half psychic power and standard attack in the same round. But in the sentence before that it does not mention half action physic powers, it simply says anytime you use a a focus power action(so full(not that it matters) and free actions count as well). So you can not use a free psychic power and a standard attack in the same round. Yet because as we have previously mentioned it only specially means standard attack, you can do any other combination you want. So you could combine a free action psychic power with anything else you wanted to say full auto burst, or all out attack, or multiple attacks or even both Knockdown and Feint(not exactly the most useful combination, but hey you could). So you could do any of these combinations but you can not do a simple free action psychic power plus standard attack.

So I am correct on reading the RAW?

If, iam not plz explain why?

P.S. see this is what happens when you try to nerf too hard, you just create stupid rules.

So I am correct on reading the RAW?

Interesting question. The problem with that reading is that you definitely don't want to encounter anything with the Auto-stabilised trait, as these would be capable of a Full Auto and a Semi Auto burst in a single round since they are different half actions for them.

Personally, I'd lump psychic powers and any aggressive actions that don't obviously prepare another attack or are equally obviously meant to work in addition to normal attacks (feint and aim for the one, ballistic mechadendrite for the other) into the "standard attack" category.

First, Holly Crappers Cifer, that's scary! I hadn't noticed that! I think that would be an issue for GM common sense though. The auto-stabilized trait is meant to show that less work needs to go into keeping the bucking bronco of a weapon on target so the shooter can also move, etc wile going full auto or what not. It should not effect the weapons rof (which is what would effectively happen if it could full auto and simi-auto in the same round). Another case of not thinking things through perhaps? And this is why I prefer simpler rule systems; way less breakdown.

omnified_emu, you are correct in your interpretation. According to the Errata, a focus power action is considered to the a Standard Attack Action for the purpose of determining which actions a character can take which means that a character can indeed use a free power and a full auto burst or multiple attack. I believe that's been covered in the Force Weapons thread... and, ya, that is what happens when one starts making more rules and bolting them onto the system. It gets more complex and becomes more prone to odd breakdowns. I think the spirit of the focus power action in the errata is to include all attack actions but, going strictly by the words themselves, it doesn't.

Mellon, as for why actions are divided into Attack Actions, Movement Actions and Miscellaneous Actions, I couldn't say for certain as I didn't write them but if I had to guess, I'd say it's because it would make them easer to find and comprehend then if they were ordered alphabetically or divided up by the number of words in their name. With them in chunks of Attack, Move, and Misc, you get a decent idea of what all the actions under that heading do. You know all the actions under the Attack heading are going to act against the enemy. You know all the actions under the Movement are going to involve your character moving somewhere. And you know tat the actions under Miscellaneous are going to, for the most part, do things that don't move the character or act directly against an opponent.

If you look at all the actions under Attack, only one could be considered "standard" as it uses no special rules what-so-ever, and that would be Standard Attack. If all actions under a heading were considered to be the same action, then you also wouldn't be able to stand up and then move or ready a weapon and then aim it. Tings would get pretty silly...

The errata doesnt say that all focus powers count as half actions, just that focus power actions count as an attack. So you can make a normal Aim, Attack, and free action power, because the power isnt included in deciding what you can do for the round, only your half actions are. Half action powers would then make it so you couldnt attack, because you couldnt do any other half action that counts as an attack.

I agree, it is oddly worded and needs to be cleaned up, but the free action powers arent the agressive attack ones, they are the quick buffs that are ment to be used in conjunction with an attack.

Ah, interesting. I think I must have confused things with how the rules work in Dungeons and Dragons 4th edition, where you are allowed one attack action, one move action and one minor action, and you can always trade one action for one of lower "rank" (attack > move > minor). IMHO DnD 4 has manged to make a pretty interesting turnbased strategy game. Unfortunately the rulessystem is very unconnected to the fluff, so in essence pretty worthless as a storytelling tool.

I think it is actually a good houserule, that you may only make a single attack action each round. In practice I think both my gaming groups have done it exactly this way all the time... I'll have to map out the possible actions, including actions granted by talents (luminem blast for example, is that equivalent to an attack action?) and see how they fit in the system. Maybe it would be clearer if the actions were sorted after how long time of your turn they took? *starts up open office calc*

Goddammit. So, can you use Unnatural Aim and attack in the same round, or not? This is driving me out of my mind.

Depends on how you interpret the errata.

"Making a
Focus Power Action is the psychic equivalent of a Standard Attack
Action, and counts as such for purposes of determining what else
a psyker can do in a round."

can be read to mean that no matter what kind of action the Focus Power actually is, it always counts as a standard attack (which is a half action) for purposes of what else can be done in the round. Or you can take the interpretation of Varius and say that it doesn't gain all the properties of a standard attack action.

The text is ambiguous enough to support both.

Cifer said:

If we assume this interpretation, then you CAN manifest Unnatural Aim as a Half Action and fire as a Half Action (?). Or you can't becuase you can't take two Standard Attack actions in one round?

****, whoever wrote these errata needs an editor!

My copy of the errata says this:

"The first paragraph in the Using Psychic Powers section
starting on page 161 should include the addition: “Making
a Focus Power Action is the psychic equivalent of a
Standard Attack Action, and counts as such for purposes
of determining what else a psyker can do in a round.
Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half Action power cannot
make another Half Action Standard Attack on the same
round. A Psyker may manifest only one ability per Round
with the exception of the Resist Possession power. A Psyker
is required to roll at least one die to manifest an ability.”

Which seems unambiguous: "Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half Action power cannot
make another Half Action Standard Attack on the same
round."

if you are in melee combat with someone and he walks away, you can attack him with a free action, which doesn't count gainst your standard attack. therefore you can use a free action psykic power and do a normal attack action

To me it doesnt make any sense how a free action could ever interrupt what you can do for the round.

And again, if you follow the other line of reasoning, as long as you do a full round action, like a charge or full auto, you can still use a power. Which to me seems to show that the intent is not to prevent you from using a free action power and attack, only half action powers.

bogi_khaosa said:

You cant attack in any round you use a half action power, it counts as an attack. What we are talking about is free action powers, like distort vision. Its very clear in the errata that you cant attack and use a half action power.

The problem with Distort Vision may be that being able to use it and attack in the same round would make the power too effective. It is just a Minor Power.

Sorry, I meant to use Distort Vision as an example of a such a Free Action power.

but you have to compare it to the survivability and combat ability of a guardsman, or assassin. You dont have as high stats in combat, for things like dodges or toughness, or to hit with BS or WS, or hit as hard with STR. To make up for that you have powers. But the powers always have a chance of killing you/your party. So you might be more effective then one of them if you use a certain power, but you could also die, and still only be effective in one area at a time.

And minor powers doesnt mean they are bad, even when you have a discipline you will still be using minor powers, all the time.

Do I use Precognitive Strike a discipline power, and get +20 to hit, or Distort Vision, giving them -30 to hit me

(And make sure to use the errata'd version)