For example, in Soresu Defender, you can get to Defensive Circle, which is a Lightsaber (Intellect) check, without picking up Soresu Technique. So, can you take the Defensive Circle action without Soresu Technique? Does it work the same way?

I would imagine that's the case. Soresu technique gives the option of using Intellect as the characteristic, whereas Defencive Circle directly requires you to use it with your check.

Imagine there was no Soresu talent, what's important is the text of Defencive Circle itself. It's says to use Intellect so that's what you use.

That's my assumption, but wanted to see how others were interpreting it.

Not entirely sure, personally. Like if you look at Makashi Duelist or Niman Disciple, you pretty much have to grab the techniques first, and with Shien Expert, you can't grab the unique talent there unless you grab the technique first. So it seems that if the intent was for you to NEED the technique first, that they would've just made the trees (Ataru Striker and Soresu Defender) like the previous ones.

At the same time though, my common sense is just saying, "So, a player can conceivably do these advanced things with different characteristics, but they can't handle swinging the lightsaber normally?"

I don't know. I guess I'd allow it, since if a player is dipping that far for the unique talents while avoiding the other stuff, in most cases they're just making things more difficult for themselves.

In those instances where you could grab the advanced talent without needing to first grab the associated Form technique, I'd say you're SOL since your character has their Lightsaber skill tied to Brawn rather than the Characteristic listed with the talent.

That was my catch too. Most of those talents require a Lightsaber (Not Brawn) check. If you don't have the form talent that fits the (Not Brawn) requirement, its a no go.

In those instances where you could grab the advanced talent without needing to first grab the associated Form technique, I'd say you're SOL since your character has their Lightsaber skill tied to Brawn rather than the Characteristic listed with the talent.

That's pretty much how I read it too. If the talent specifies that it needs the Lightsaber skill to be used with, for example, Intellect then you need the talent that allows you to use Intellect instead of Brawn, which is the default.

Some clearer verbiage on this wouldn't hurt.

For example, in Soresu Defender, you can get to Defensive Circle, which is a Lightsaber (Intellect) check, without picking up Soresu Technique. So, can you take the Defensive Circle action without Soresu Technique? Does it work the same way?

It might just be an error in the connecting lines in Soresu Defender. Removing the connector from R3C4 Reflect and R4C4 Defensive Stance would fix that right up!

-EF

Some clearer verbiage on this wouldn't hurt.

It seems pretty clear to me. If you can't make a Lightsaber check using Cunning, then you can't use Disruptive Strike, since you're using Lightsaber (Brawn) as the default.

I think Soresu Defender is the odd man out as it's the only tree where you can skip the Soresu Technique yet still get Strategic Form. Pretty sure the others you need to pick up the Form Technique talent in order to progress further into the tree.

Some clearer verbiage on this wouldn't hurt.

It seems pretty clear to me. If you can't make a Lightsaber check using Cunning, then you can't use Disruptive Strike, since you're using Lightsaber (Brawn) as the default.

I think Soresu Defender is the odd man out as it's the only tree where you can skip the Soresu Technique yet still get Strategic Form. Pretty sure the others you need to pick up the Form Technique talent in order to progress further into the tree.

Soresu Technique was mostly what I was referring to. I agree though, It's clear that if it specifies a characteristic, you must use that characteristic.

Rules As Intended are most certainly 100% supposed to be you grab the style talent first and then the technique. So this would be a great thing to email FFG about.

Are there any examples in the other books where a talent calls for a player to use an Action triggered by a skill with an alternate characteristic? I think RAW you would still be able to use Intellect for just this specific Action, but it's in the context of the rest of the book that it becomes clear this wasn't intended.

Rules As Intended are most certainly 100% supposed to be you grab the style talent first and then the technique. So this would be a great thing to email FFG about.

Are there any examples in the other books where a talent calls for a player to use an Action triggered by a skill with an alternate characteristic? I think RAW you would still be able to use Intellect for just this specific Action, but it's in the context of the rest of the book that it becomes clear this wasn't intended.

Nope, all other talents simply say "use this Skill" since the default assumption is that the skill listed is going to already be tied to a Characteristic. So if you're making a Deception check, you'd use Cunning as your Characteristic since that's what Deception is tied to, so there's no need to spell it out as Deception (Cunning) check.

The Lightsaber skill is different simply because there are a number of talents that change which Characteristic it's tied to.

I read it differently. I'm pretty sure the rules already support making skill checks using different characteristics where appropriate and the ones called out in the books are just the "default" (though I play a lot of IK RPG, and I may be getting the two confused here - either way, that's how I'd run it - if both GM and players agree that that particular use of a skill makes sense to be based on a different characteristic, I'd allow it).

That being the case, talents which call for a specific characteristic to be used just mean that you have to use that characteristic when making that particular check - e.g.: when using distruptive strike you must use Lightsaber (Cunning) - but the more general talents essentially change the "default" characteristic for the Lightsaber skill from Brawn to something else.

I agree with what you say Gribble, but I'm pretty sure the intent from FFG was that you pick up the style talent as a prerequisite before getting the technique, and this is one tree where the design ended up allowing you to bypass that.

As far as using different Characteristics on skill checks, that's an option to be employed in special cases, not the default method. Otherwise, you open the door for players to try and combine skills with Characteristics they have a higher value in than the default value, such as a PC with Cunning 4, Intellect 2, and Computers 3 wanting to weasel their way into using Cunning for a Computers check (which is associated with Intellect) since it gives them more proficiency dice to roll, or a PC wanting to substitute their Agility 4 for their Brawn 1 when making Melee attack checks.

I agree with what you say Gribble, but I'm pretty sure the intent from FFG was that you pick up the style talent as a prerequisite before getting the technique, and this is one tree where the design ended up allowing you to bypass that.

Maybe they should rethink the shape of this tree a bit.

As far as using different Characteristics on skill checks, that's an option to be employed in special cases, not the default method. Otherwise, you open the door for players to try and combine skills with Characteristics they have a higher value in than the default value, such as a PC with Cunning 4, Intellect 2, and Computers 3 wanting to weasel their way into using Cunning for a Computers check (which is associated with Intellect) since it gives them more proficiency dice to roll, or a PC wanting to substitute their Agility 4 for their Brawn 1 when making Melee attack checks.

Sure. My point is that the option exists, and the specific talent states that you must use this characteristic for this particular check. Just seems to me that it's more likely this is the intent (assuming it's not an error in the tree layout, which is entirely possible) rather than that the talent can't be used at all unless you also have the other talent which changes the default in all circumstances...

I agree with what you say Gribble, but I'm pretty sure the intent from FFG was that you pick up the style talent as a prerequisite before getting the technique, and this is one tree where the design ended up allowing you to bypass that.

Maybe they should rethink the shape of this tree a bit.

Easiest fix would be to remove the connection at Row 4 between Columns 3 and 4 (Reflect and Defensive Stance), making it similar to the other Form specs in that you pretty much have to take the Form Technique talent to get further into the tree.