Probably someone commented it yet but, Improved Parry/Reflect activation cost seems a bit too high. Get 3 Threats return damage (at least with blasters) seems pretty difficult considering that Defense values uses to be so low.

A typical Jedi defense in movies can be 2 Red (2 Upgrades from Sense), 1 Setback from armored robes or similar and maybe 1 more ih fights a bit defensively. I rolled a few times and the general sensations is that its difficult to return blaster fire (above 30%).

It's ok or do you believe that the cost must be lowered?

Thanks!

If you look at how often blaster fire gets returned to hit someone in the films, it's fairly rare.

I'd say a decent change might be including a reduction to either 2, or 1 threat needed when using Supreme Reflect/Parry, or allowing for Destiny points to be used when actively trying to return shots.

I think with a reduction to 2 you'll see it too often. Really there is defense and there are abilities/talents which increase the difficulty of your enemy's next combat check. There are definitely reasonable ways to get them to roll 3 threats as your Jedi grows in power.

I was suggesting the reduction only occur when using Supreme Parry/Reflect (ie., you're not attacking on your own turn).

And as for generating threat, that's not very reliable as your opponents' offensive abilities grow, since they typically outpace your defenses.

Probably someone commented it yet but, Improved Parry/Reflect activation cost seems a bit too high. Get 3 Threats return damage (at least with blasters) seems pretty difficult considering that Defense values uses to be so low.

A typical Jedi defense in movies can be 2 Red (2 Upgrades from Sense), 1 Setback from armored robes or similar and maybe 1 more ih fights a bit defensively. I rolled a few times and the general sensations is that its difficult to return blaster fire (above 30%).

It's ok or do you believe that the cost must be lowered?

Thanks!

If you look at how often blaster fire gets returned to hit someone in the films, it's fairly rare.

I'd say a decent change might be including a reduction to either 2, or 1 threat needed when using Supreme Reflect/Parry, or allowing for Destiny points to be used when actively trying to return shots.

I think with a reduction to 2 you'll see it too often. Really there is defense and there are abilities/talents which increase the difficulty of your enemy's next combat check. There are definitely reasonable ways to get them to roll 3 threats as your Jedi grows in power.

I was suggesting the reduction only occur when using Supreme Parry/Reflect (ie., you're not attacking on your own turn).

And as for generating threat, that's not very reliable as your opponents' offensive abilities grow, since they typically outpace your defenses.

Maybe supreme parry and reflect aren't really intended to be super useful against really tough enemies. Obi-wan couldn't reflect Jango's blasters back at him, but he could reflect B1's B2's and destroyer's blaster fire all day. Figuratively speaking.

FWIW, if a revision goes down, I like DM's option 2 more. It maintains the power curve, and the starting boost isn't so big that I feel it will overshadow non-deflecting characters.

I really question why parrying blaster bolts has to be this complicated.

What are the issues with having a Jedi character make a lightsber roll just like any other melee defense? The only difference is that it works against blaster bolts. That would allow good marksman to overwhelm low skill jedi, but allow highly skilled Jedi to mostly ignore blaster fire like the movies and cartoons.

It could require a talent to perform or just be a Sense upgrade. Perhaps provide talents to improve the Jedi's ability to handle more bolts per exchange.

I really question why parrying blaster bolts has to be this complicated.

What are the issues with having a Jedi character make a lightsber roll just like any other melee defense? The only difference is that it works against blaster bolts. That would allow good marksman to overwhelm low skill jedi, but allow highly skilled Jedi to mostly ignore blaster fire like the movies and cartoons.

It could require a talent to perform or just be a Sense upgrade. Perhaps provide talents to improve the Jedi's ability to handle more bolts per exchange.

Except it IS just like melee defence- you dont roll unless it's your turn. Bouncing blaster fire needs Dodge, Sence, Sidestep, and as many black dice as you can stack... even if you dont have the talent to turn those Threat/strain into wounds, it doesnt matter except against a nemisis.

I'd say Shien needs MORE "Defensive Training" and Dodge talents, perhaps replacing Street Smarts and a Deflection.

Yeah, I'm still holding off a bit on the 3 Threat or 1 Despair bit. Most of my experience with "not seeing it" came from trying out different methods of implementing the Deflect Blasters talent for my Ways of the Force fan supplement.

I did propose an alteration that instead of requiring the 3 Threat or 1 Despair, that instead the Force user roll a number a Force dice equal to their Force Rating, and if they score 2 Light Side points, then they get to use Improved Parry/Reflect. This way, it puts the activation of said talent more into the player's hands than leaving it entirely up to the vagaries of dice rolls, but still keeps it from being a "sure thing" for low-level apprentices while allowing "masters" to use said abilities far more reliably.

Rakaydos,

I think with Reflect, the designers are trying to account for the idea that ranged attacks are going to be occurring a lot more often, so the chance of coming up with the 3 Threat or 1 Despair results are going to be far more likely simply based on how many adversaries are going to be using blasters as opposed to melee weapons.

Though perhaps yet1069 has a point, in that Shien should have a talent to further upgrade their chances of scoring a Despair. Since that side of the tree is about dealing with ranged attacks, perhaps substitute the Column 4/Row 4 instance of Reflect with Sidestep?

FWIW, if a revision goes down, I like DM's option 2 more. It maintains the power curve, and the starting boost isn't so big that I feel it will overshadow non-deflecting characters.

Yeah, that's actually my preferred option of the 2, for exactly that reason. It still keeps with most specs getting a Parry or Reflect value of 5 (base 3 plus 2 ranks) but also keeps things from getting out of hand as the PCs start really racking up the XP and buying even more ranks in those talents.

I did propose an alteration that instead of requiring the 3 Threat or 1 Despair, that instead the Force user roll a number a Force dice equal to their Force Rating, and if they score 2 Light Side points, then they get to use Improved Parry/Reflect. This way, it puts the activation of said talent more into the player's hands than leaving it entirely up to the vagaries of dice rolls, but still keeps it from being a "sure thing" for low-level apprentices while allowing "masters" to use said abilities far more reliably.

This seems too powerful to me and doesn't factor in the enemy's defensive capabilities. Defenses that would make it less likely for them to roll threats and despair. I don't really remember Jedi reflecting blaster bolts back against really tough opponents.

I did propose an alteration that instead of requiring the 3 Threat or 1 Despair, that instead the Force user roll a number a Force dice equal to their Force Rating, and if they score 2 Light Side points, then they get to use Improved Parry/Reflect. This way, it puts the activation of said talent more into the player's hands than leaving it entirely up to the vagaries of dice rolls, but still keeps it from being a "sure thing" for low-level apprentices while allowing "masters" to use said abilities far more reliably.

This seems too powerful to me and doesn't factor in the enemy's defensive capabilities. Defenses that would make it less likely for them to roll threats and despair. I don't really remember Jedi reflecting blaster bolts back against really tough opponents.

Perhaps only if the attack misses. Also, I think that specifying light side points is unnecesary, as it should be force points. Possibly just hold over nomenclature, but still.

I still think the despair option is good, and if combined with the sense upgrades and a couple side steps can happen a lot more often than you'd think. 23% chance of a despair showing up with 3 challenge dice. that's no scoffing percentage.

Yeah, I'm still holding off a bit on the 3 Threat or 1 Despair bit. Most of my experience with "not seeing it" came from trying out different methods of implementing the Deflect Blasters talent for my Ways of the Force fan supplement.

I did propose an alteration that instead of requiring the 3 Threat or 1 Despair, that instead the Force user roll a number a Force dice equal to their Force Rating, and if they score 2 Light Side points, then they get to use Improved Parry/Reflect. This way, it puts the activation of said talent more into the player's hands than leaving it entirely up to the vagaries of dice rolls, but still keeps it from being a "sure thing" for low-level apprentices while allowing "masters" to use said abilities far more reliably.

My issue with this is that it's kind of working against the Sense power, which seems like it should combine effectively with Reflect, yet doesn't until you're at FR 3+, which, also, means you have spent a lot of XP in non-lightsaber form trees. I don't think putting a damper on power is necessarily a problem, but this just doesn't seem like an improvement to the 3 threat/1 despair situation.

Also, Parry and its Improved version are not Force talents, so do they work differently from Reflect (not using Force dice), or do you change them to Force talents to sync up mechanically?

A question.

In Clone Wars Cade Bane said an interesting sentence: " Any imbecile can kill a Jedi with a lousy sniper blast. You want my respect? You do it face to face. "

Any interpretation about that?

A question.

In Clone Wars Cade Bane said an interesting sentence: " Any imbecile can kill a Jedi with a lousy sniper blast. You want my respect? You do it face to face. "

Any interpretation about that?

Probably be a case of the Jedi not really being "aware" of the sniper until it's too late, and thus have no chance to really see the attack coming.

Or could just be the Cad Bane was puffing himself up, essentially saying "I'm enough of a badass that I don't need to resort to sneak attacks to take down a Jedi."

I'll agree that using a Force Die to trigger Improved Parry/Reflect isn't without issue, but then using Threat/Despair isn't problem free either. I've witnessed entire combats, with multiple Challenge dice being applied, where not a single Despair was generated, or that the attacker never generated more than 2 Threat on any given attack roll. And that's when going up against minion groups and low-value Rivals, who probably should be the primary targets of Improved Parry/Reflect.

Do bear in mind that even if using Force Points as a means to trigger Improved Parry/Reflect, you'd still need to use the Parry/Reflect, which means in many instances the character is still going to take damage from the attack. Might need a restriction on how often it can trigger though (likely once per round), if only to cut down on having PCs using Improved Parry/Reflect against every attack. Then again, since they're likely to be taking damage (particularly at the earlier stages of play when they're not going to have several ranks of Parry or Reflect), that taking damage is going to add up, particularly against weapons such as vibro-swords/axes and blaster carbines/rifles.

Perhaps reword the talents to activate as follows:

Parry (Improved)

"Once per round, when the character suffers a hit from a Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber combat check and the character uses the Parry incidental to reduce the damage from that hit, after the attack is resolved, roll Force dice equal to Force Rating. Spend a Force Point to have the character automatically hit the attacker once with a wielded Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber weapon." (last two sentences are fine as is)

Reflect (Improved)

"Once per round, when the character suffers a hit from a Ranged (Light), Ranged (Heavy), or Gunnery combat check and the character uses the Reflect incidental to reduce the damage from that hit, after the attack is resolved, roll Force dice equal to Force Rating. Spend a Force Point to automatically one target within medium range, dealing the same damage as the hit from the initial ranged attack." (2nd paragraph's is also fine as is)

Activation would still be Passive, since they're just expanding upon the base function of Parry and Reflect, much as the Improved and Supreme versions of Full Throttle do.

As for Sense, I'd prefer to avoid requiring a PC to have to take a specific Force power or specific upgrades in the hopes of getting more use out of a talent. Besides, having to choose between committing that Force die to Sense's defense upgrades or the chance to use Improved Parry/Reflect does tie into the core design concept that this game is based upon a resource management paradigm. And at the lower levels of power, they have to choose between having a more potent defense or the option of a strong counterattack option.

Parry (Improved)

"Once per round, when the character suffers a hit from a Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber combat check and the character uses the Parry incidental to reduce the damage from that hit, after the attack is resolved, roll Force dice equal to Force Rating. Spend a Force Point to have the character automatically hit the attacker once with a wielded Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber weapon." (last two sentences are fine as is)

Reflect (Improved)

"Once per round, when the character suffers a hit from a Ranged (Light), Ranged (Heavy), or Gunnery combat check and the character uses the Reflect incidental to reduce the damage from that hit, after the attack is resolved, roll Force dice equal to Force Rating. Spend a Force Point to automatically one target within medium range, dealing the same damage as the hit from the initial ranged attack." (2nd paragraph's is also fine as is)

I think these are completely the wrong way to go. Every character with improved reflect or parry get a free attack every time they're hit? That seems way over the top. It also still doesn't take the opponent's defense into play in any way. Lightsaber duels between with characters with improved parry will last like one-two rounds with automatic damage that ignores soak.

Yes, I understand in your example that they still have to roll a force point or accept one conflict to turn a dark point into a light point, but it's incredibly easy to get one light point or gain 1 conflict with FR 1+.

So you're saying that a character that paid valuable XP for a talent should have to rely solely upon the vagaries of the dice in order to every use those talents? Sorry, but not buying it. If a character paid good XP to get those abilities, they should at least like the option to use them more than once or twice in a blue moon as opposed to hoping my opponent happens to generate enough Threat in the first place. As I've noted, I've seen entire combats go by with the bad guys' dice rolls not generating the results necessary for Improved Parry/Reflect to trigger, which in turns makes those talents into wasted XP that could have been spent on skill ranks, Force powers, or talents that can actually be used.

The main problem with Improved Parry/Reflect as currently is that it takes the choice of when to use them completely out of the player's hands . The vast majority of talents in this system are triggered on the choice of the player, sometimes with an additional cost in the form of Strain or a Destiny Point, but it's the player that decides when those talents come into play, not the random number gods.

To call back to the stress-testing I did back during the EotE Beta when trying to suss out the best way to have the Deflect Blasters talent work in my Ways of the Force fan supplement, I conducted over a hundred combat checks (120 actually) against a proto-Jedi character, with the bad guy rolling against a difficulty of 2 challenge dice, 1 purple die (reflecting the Sense power's defensive Control Upgrade with the Strength Upgrade and a rank of Dodge at Medium Range) and 2 setback dice (1 rank in Lightsaber Defense plus Armored Clothing), each time using a pool of 2 proficiency dice, 1 ability die, and 1 boost die (aiming) for the attacker. I made it a point to keep track of how many times the attacker rolled a Despair or generated 3 Threat.

End results out of those 120 attack rolls against the proto-Jedi? 3 rolls that had a Despair come up (2 of which still resulted in a hit), and 5 results that generated 3+ Threat (3 of which still resulted in a hit). So that's 5 instances out of 120 where, under the RAW for Improved Parry/Reflect that a character would have been able to use those talents, since the attacker has to both hit and generate the necessary 3 Threat or Despair. So going by those results, I'd call the current versions of Improved Parry/Reflect a complete waste of XP.

Maybe rolling a Force die isn't the best idea, but it certainly beats hoping that the random number gods don't screw you over as you're getting the crap knocked out of you by the bad guys, on top of putting the ability to use these talents firmly in the player's hands, which goes in line with how the talents in this system generally operate.

The better your defenses are the more challenge/difficulty dice your opponent has to roll. The more challenge/difficulty dice your opponent has to roll, the higher the chance they have of getting their attacks reflected at them. This takes both the attacker and defender into account. The usefulness of the talent will scale with the defenses of the defender. If you get it to the point where these improved talents work even half way reliably they are VERY powerful talents. Talents that warrant synergy into defense to empower them.

Defense, Defensive quality, Deflection quality, Dodge, Side step, Sense Force Power, Defensive Training, Defensive Circle, Defensive Stance, Guarded Stance maneuver, Feint, Body Guard, Sense Advantage...

Am I forgetting any?

And these don't even take into account things like situational setback dice from things such as Disorient.

An Ataru/Bodyguard with 2 ranks of Dodge, 2 ranks in Sidestep, and a kitted out Sence at medium range is reducing the ememy dice pool to 4 challange dice. There is a roughly 70.6% chance of rolling zero despairs with that dice roll- or roughly, one shot in three is reflected at least once.

Quoting myself XD

"A typical Jedi defense in movies can be 2 Red (2 Upgrades from Sense), 1 Setback from armored robes or similar and maybe 1 more ih fights a bit defensively. I rolled a few times and the general sensations is that its difficult to return blaster fire (above 30%)"

Maybe you can add there a purple dice from extra distance, but in general therms seems a good ratio. Jedi use to return a lot of fire to null B1 droids (clearly inferior minions) but with the other ones doesn't seems that they return so much blaster shots.

A squad of 4 B1s, according to EoE's adversaries section, would have a blaster rifle pool of YYG. Two B1s, on the other hand, would only have YG.

Right!

Maybe thanks to that impressive looow skill that they have its easier to replicate movie scenes.

Somewhat off-topic, but sometimes for certain scenes in particular, similar to the first combat scene in the Phantom Menace you could describe it like this:

Obi-wan Vs a minion group of 5 B1 battle droids.

Obi-wan's player makes a combat check. He succeeds, rolling 4 successes and 3 advantage. He has just dealt 14 wounds and spends his 3 advantage to score 3 critical injuries. Mechanically he has just destroyed the entire minion group in one Action. (4 wounds each, each critical injury inflicted on a minion group automatically defeats 1 minion.) Does that mean narratively that he literally swung his lightsaber once and hit all of them? No. He narrates, "My lightsaber glows brilliantly through the poison gas as I jump forward slicing two battle droids in half before spinning and slicing two more. The final battle droid down the hall fires a blaster bolt straight towards me and I calmly stand before reflecting it back directly into his chest. His metal body clangs to the floor. The hallway lies quiet."

Just the same as a Jedi without the reflect talent doesn't necessarily mean that narratively it's impossible for them to deflect a blaster bolt or a Jedi without the parry talent can't block a melee attack with their lightsaber. They just aren't as defensively sound, mechanically.

Edit: clarifying game-term language and fixing typos.

Problem with that example.

Per RAW, you can only trigger a critical injury once on an attack roll, with additional activations simply adding a bonus. And per page 225, if a minion group suffers a critical injury, it simply loses one minion's worth of wounds, which in turn incapacitates one minion out of the group. So at best Obi-Wan could take out three of those battle droids; 2 based upon his number of successes allowing him to deal 10 damage with a basic lightsaber (assuming the Antiquated Battle Droid stats), and the third due to the critical injury, leaving the 4th battle droid standing.

And for that matter, any and all of the talents in this game could be completely deep-sixed and replaced with a "narrative explanation" that's purely a result of the skill check and nothing else. So really that examle doesn't "prove" anything.

I also find it fundamentally flawed that a PC should be practically required to spend XP on multiple other talents and powers that aren't always easy or cheap to come by, just to get some actual usage out a talent they purchased.

At this point, I'd almost suggest that Improved Parry/Reflect as they are simply be deep-sixed completely and their effects rolled into the basic Parry and Reflect talents, with the Supreme versions then becoming the Improved versions. That way, if sticking to the "enemy needs to roll 3 Threat or a Despair" in order to get the counterattack, then at least the player still has a useful talent for those multiple occasions when the bad guy's roll doesn't generate those specific results.

Problem with that example.

Per RAW, you can only trigger a critical injury once on an attack roll, with additional activations simply adding a bonus. And per page 225, if a minion group suffers a critical injury, it simply loses one minion's worth of wounds, which in turn incapacitates one minion out of the group. So at best Obi-Wan could take out three of those battle droids; 2 based upon his number of successes allowing him to deal 10 damage with a basic lightsaber (assuming the Antiquated Battle Droid stats), and the third due to the critical injury, leaving the 4th battle droid standing.

And for that matter, any and all of the talents in this game could be completely deep-sixed and replaced with a "narrative explanation" that's purely a result of the skill check and nothing else. So really that examle doesn't "prove" anything.

I also find it fundamentally flawed that a PC should be practically required to spend XP on multiple other talents and powers that aren't always easy or cheap to come by, just to get some actual usage out a talent they purchased.

At this point, I'd almost suggest that Improved Parry/Reflect as they are simply be deep-sixed completely and their effects rolled into the basic Parry and Reflect talents, with the Supreme versions then becoming the Improved versions. That way, if sticking to the "enemy needs to roll 3 Threat or a Despair" in order to get the counterattack, then at least the player still has a useful talent for those multiple occasions when the bad guy's roll doesn't generate those specific results.

Sure, you could interpret it that way, or I think you could interpret it as: "okay, I scored 3 critical injuries, so lets roll for a critical injury with +20 to the roll... oh wait, there's no roll." I think it could easily be argued that my example is valid, the rules aren't concrete one way or the other. The critical rule states that you can only generate one critical roll per target, but while a minion group is a group, it isn't necessarily one target. A minion group can be physically split up so that only some of them are effected by something like the Blast quality, they can be separate targets. In my example there also isn't a critical roll being made... so you're not generating any anyway, technically speaking.

I wasn't trying to "prove" anything with that, we were simply side-talking about possible ways to replicate movie scenes, my last post was somewhat off-topic as I said, not my actual argument.

All of those talents that you're spending XP on are useful, they simply become more useful when used together. This is the same way with many other talents and mechanics. Synergy.

As I've shown there are tons of ways to penalize the enemy's attack rolls and increase their chances of rolling despair and threat. These are very powerful talents. Especially because many of them scale and synergize very nicely together as they accumulate. This is free damage that automatically hits that can be done as an out-of-turn incidental as many times per round as you can afford to parry/reflect.

A question.

In Clone Wars Cade Bane said an interesting sentence: " Any imbecile can kill a Jedi with a lousy sniper blast. You want my respect? You do it face to face. "

Any interpretation about that?