Ok, how about another solution to the problem:

parry/reflect: (talents stay as they are in regards to tree placement with the following changes)

Spend 3 strain to reduce damage equal to 3+1 per rank of parry/reflect. If attack generates 3 threat or 1 despair, may make an immediate lightsaber combat check vs (parry) engaged target (2 difficulty plus defense bonuses as normal) / (reflect) any target within medium range (using range band difficulty plus defense bonuses as normal, and base weapon damage of the incoming shot).

Improved parry/reflect:

reduce the amount of threat needed by one

Supreme parry/reflect:

If character did not take a combat action in the previous round (including counterstriking and redirecting a blaster shot), strain cost to activate parry/reflect is reduced to 1, and the threat needed to trigger counterattack/redirection is reduced to one.

Comments? Suggestions? Perhaps make the redirection/counterstrike cost additional 1-2 strain?

This is mostly directed at Donovan, but anyone can chime in.

This would also help to explain how Obi-Wan was able to withstand the brutal assault by General Grievous (lots of parrying,) as well as successfully counterstriking TWICE, and quite literally disarming him, within maybe 2-3 combat rounds.

Maybe reduction to 1 is too much, but the rest seems ok

Ok, how about another solution to the problem:

parry/reflect: (talents stay as they are in regards to tree placement with the following changes)

Spend 3 strain to reduce damage equal to 3+1 per rank of parry/reflect. If attack generates 3 threat or 1 despair, may make an immediate lightsaber combat check vs (parry) engaged target (2 difficulty plus defense bonuses as normal) / (reflect) any target within medium range (using range band difficulty plus defense bonuses as normal, and base weapon damage of the incoming shot).

Improved parry/reflect:

reduce the amount of threat needed by one

Supreme parry/reflect:

If character did not take a combat action in the previous round (including counterstriking and redirecting a blaster shot), strain cost to activate parry/reflect is reduced to 1, and the threat needed to trigger counterattack/redirection is reduced to one.

Comments? Suggestions? Perhaps make the redirection/counterstrike cost additional 1-2 strain?

This is mostly directed at Donovan, but anyone can chime in.

This would also help to explain how Obi-Wan was able to withstand the brutal assault by General Grievous (lots of parrying,) as well as successfully counterstriking TWICE, and quite literally disarming him, within maybe 2-3 combat rounds.

What happens when the person who parrys rolls 3 threat, and the original attacker (the new target) also has parry?

Edit: I'd suggest a "Not usable on your own turn" clause, and not let Suprime reduce it to one.

In general, 2 advantage/threat is worth a maneuver or a black/blue die. Talents can make an action a maneuver.

Currently, of course, Improved lets you auto-hit someone who leaaves themself open (3 threats) for base damage plus talents.

So I'd keep Parry as is, and make Improved Parry an attack roll vs 3 purple, for 2 threat, not usable on your own turn.

At this point, I'd almost suggest that Improved Parry/Reflect as they are simply be deep-sixed completely and their effects rolled into the basic Parry and Reflect talents, with the Supreme versions then becoming the Improved versions. That way, if sticking to the "enemy needs to roll 3 Threat or a Despair" in order to get the counterattack, then at least the player still has a useful talent for those multiple occasions when the bad guy's roll doesn't generate those specific results.

I would accept this if instead of deep sixing the improved talents, allow players to spend a destiny point to add despair to an opponents attack. thus triggering the reflect, and reducing damage by 1 (or possibly even countering it). This would maintain the resource management part of the game, would place activation in the players hands without removing the potential for a random deflect, and basically limits it to only one likely reflect per turn.

this way no adjustment to the trees need be made, and you get both player intent and random potential.

Ok, how about another solution to the problem:

parry/reflect: (talents stay as they are in regards to tree placement with the following changes)

Spend 3 strain to reduce damage equal to 3+1 per rank of parry/reflect. If attack generates 3 threat or 1 despair, may make an immediate lightsaber combat check vs (parry) engaged target (2 difficulty plus defense bonuses as normal) / (reflect) any target within medium range (using range band difficulty plus defense bonuses as normal, and base weapon damage of the incoming shot).

Improved parry/reflect:

reduce the amount of threat needed by one

Supreme parry/reflect:

If character did not take a combat action in the previous round (including counterstriking and redirecting a blaster shot), strain cost to activate parry/reflect is reduced to 1, and the threat needed to trigger counterattack/redirection is reduced to one.

Comments? Suggestions? Perhaps make the redirection/counterstrike cost additional 1-2 strain?

This is mostly directed at Donovan, but anyone can chime in.

This would also help to explain how Obi-Wan was able to withstand the brutal assault by General Grievous (lots of parrying,) as well as successfully counterstriking TWICE, and quite literally disarming him, within maybe 2-3 combat rounds.

What happens when the person who parrys rolls 3 threat, and the original attacker (the new target) also has parry?

Well in that case you fall back to the rule of every other game system that does not allow a counter of a counter to avoid stupid moments of people bouncing blaster shots back and forth like a tennis ball. They can parry/reflect (damage reduction) as normal, they just wouldn't be able to counter a counter or redirect a redirect.

At this point, I'd almost suggest that Improved Parry/Reflect as they are simply be deep-sixed completely and their effects rolled into the basic Parry and Reflect talents, with the Supreme versions then becoming the Improved versions. That way, if sticking to the "enemy needs to roll 3 Threat or a Despair" in order to get the counterattack, then at least the player still has a useful talent for those multiple occasions when the bad guy's roll doesn't generate those specific results.

I would accept this if instead of deep sixing the improved talents, allow players to spend a destiny point to add despair to an opponents attack. thus triggering the reflect, and reducing damage by 1 (or possibly even countering it). This would maintain the resource management part of the game, would place activation in the players hands without removing the potential for a random deflect, and basically limits it to only one likely reflect per turn.

this way no adjustment to the trees need be made, and you get both player intent and random potential.

The reason I combined the original parry/reflect and improved versions (as Donovan suggested) was to address the fact that the ONLY spec with improved reflect was shien expert, when we clearly see every jedi of every saber style redirecting shots. This way you aren't forced to take shien to gain the ability to redirect. Everybody can do it, which is more in tune with the lore.

Edit: My line of thinking with the lightsaber skill check was to eliminate the "automatic" hit by giving the counter or redirected shot a chance (albeit a small one) to miss. The threat reduction for improved and supreme parry/reflect was to make it a bit more common place to occur instead of 5 out of 120 rolls as in Donovan's example.

Also, I do agree that the 1 threat on the supreme version may be a bit much, but when the Jedi focuses on pure defense at the sacrifice of taking offensive action, redirecting and countering should be much easier.

I like the idea of just rolling the effects of Improved Reflect into the base Reflect Talent.

Reasoning being that if a player of mine decided to spend the three strain on a roll that generated three threat, or a despair, I'd be inclined to let them reflect a blaster bolt as a narrative effect anyway. Perhaps reducing the damage a bit. Not taking advantage of that despair, or the wad of threat, generated on that roll in a narratively "Jedi way" would be kind of weak and anti-climatic.

With that, for Improved Reflect, I'd drop the threat cost to two, and if we go with a reduced damage for the base ability, then up the damage to full.

I think that would solve the various issues raised in this topic. All lightsaber forms with a Reflect talent would then be able to occasionally reflect a blaster bolt back at another target, and the Shien expert would be especially good at doing so.

Also, I like the suggestion of 1 + 2/rank reduction, over the current 2 + 1/rank. Keeps the initial level of power the same, but as the character grows, it definitely shows their improvement.

GalenParatus,

I think adding an additional attack roll begins to over-complicate things, as it's adding yet another roll in combat. The only reason I used a competitive check in earlier versions of my Ways of the Force was that it was only for Deflect Blasters, which generally precluded the idea of the original attacker being able to make a counterattack of their own.

That said, one possible alternative if keeping Improved Parry and Improved Reflect as separate talents is that as a once per round effect, if the character as used Parry/Reflect, then character can choose to make a Lightsaber (or Melee for Parry) check at a Simple (no purple) difficulty, needing to equal or exceed the number of successes the attacker rolled. If they succeed, then the attacker takes damage as proscribed in the power. Again, the Activation would need to be changed to Active (Incidental, Out-of-Turn), which I believe carries the implied restriction that you can't use such talents when it's your turn. So an attacker with Improved Parry couldn't use that talent in response to the target using their own Improved Parry.

Yes, it's an extra roll, but it's also got a set target number by using the attacker's number of successes, which was the sticking point for some in regards to my earlier suggestion of having the player roll their Force dice, as this alteration now accounts for the attacker's degree of skill; a really good shot is going to very hard to counter unless the defender is very skilled themselves. So while Obi-Wan was certainly capable of deflecting Jango's blaster fire, Jango was simply rolling too many successes on his attack rolls for Obi-Wan to match and thus use Improved Reflect.

Donovan one question, based on the new F&D Beta, are you considering to add some changes to your Ways of the Force or you will preserve it like now like an alternative?

Donovan one question, based on the new F&D Beta, are you considering to add some changes to your Ways of the Force or you will preserve it like now like an alternative?

It'll undoubtedly get changed, but that's probably not going to be until well after the Beta period has finished. I'd rather have an idea of what the final rules are going to look like than make changes only to find the Beta rules have completely changed after an update.

That said, one possible alternative if keeping Improved Parry and Improved Reflect as separate talents is that as a once per round effect, if the character as used Parry/Reflect, then character can choose to make a Lightsaber (or Melee for Parry) check at a Simple (no purple) difficulty, needing to equal or exceed the number of successes the attacker rolled. If they succeed, then the attacker takes damage as proscribed in the power. Again, the Activation would need to be changed to Active (Incidental, Out-of-Turn), which I believe carries the implied restriction that you can't use such talents when it's your turn. So an attacker with Improved Parry couldn't use that talent in response to the target using their own Improved Parry.

Yes, it's an extra roll, but it's also got a set target number by using the attacker's number of successes, which was the sticking point for some in regards to my earlier suggestion of having the player roll their Force dice, as this alteration now accounts for the attacker's degree of skill; a really good shot is going to very hard to counter unless the defender is very skilled themselves. So while Obi-Wan was certainly capable of deflecting Jango's blaster fire, Jango was simply rolling too many successes on his attack rolls for Obi-Wan to match and thus use Improved Reflect.

This actually sounds much better.

I do not like the idea of the extra roll, whether Force Dice, or an opposed check. Just gets too fiddly, especially when you can "narratively" be batting away blaster bolts due to defense upgrades and what not.

The factor of skill is already figured into the dice being used. A Jango/Boba character is going to be adding significant upgrades and boost dice to their pool. A lightsaber wielding opponent on their level is going to be upgrading those difficulties, and adding setback dice, pretty well too. When those despairs/threat show up in useable bunches, this means the high-level shooter is having a bad day. On the other side of the credit, the LS wielder isn't going to see that happen very often. More than likely they are only going to be able to mitigate damage, and hopefully regain some strain from the meager amount of threat that do appear. This seems to be keeping with how we see things play out in the movies and books and comics.

If you flip the power-levels on either side (one "higher level" than the other), you will also see what you expect: The lower-leveled side is not going to hit/reflect as often, where the higher-level will get to see their talents play-out more often.

Regarding player control : I don't know if anyone has taken into account that, the decision to parry/reflect is done after the dice are rolled . The reflector is going to know exactly what can be done before deciding to spend the strain, or not. That seems pretty much in the player's control to me.

I like the idea of merging the reflect/parry improved talents into the base talents as Galen mentions (and I reiterated). That leaves room for Improved, to really be Improved , instead of just adding a basic ability that, for all intents and purposes, we expect all Jedi to be able to do. Not all the time, but at least once in awhile, or even more often against lowly minion types.

GalenParatus,

I think adding an additional attack roll begins to over-complicate things, as it's adding yet another roll in combat. The only reason I used a competitive check in earlier versions of my Ways of the Force was that it was only for Deflect Blasters, which generally precluded the idea of the original attacker being able to make a counterattack of their own.

That said, one possible alternative if keeping Improved Parry and Improved Reflect as separate talents is that as a once per round effect, if the character as used Parry/Reflect, then character can choose to make a Lightsaber (or Melee for Parry) check at a Simple (no purple) difficulty, needing to equal or exceed the number of successes the attacker rolled. If they succeed, then the attacker takes damage as proscribed in the power. Again, the Activation would need to be changed to Active (Incidental, Out-of-Turn), which I believe carries the implied restriction that you can't use such talents when it's your turn. So an attacker with Improved Parry couldn't use that talent in response to the target using their own Improved Parry.

Yes, it's an extra roll, but it's also got a set target number by using the attacker's number of successes, which was the sticking point for some in regards to my earlier suggestion of having the player roll their Force dice, as this alteration now accounts for the attacker's degree of skill; a really good shot is going to very hard to counter unless the defender is very skilled themselves. So while Obi-Wan was certainly capable of deflecting Jango's blaster fire, Jango was simply rolling too many successes on his attack rolls for Obi-Wan to match and thus use Improved Reflect.

I think my issues with this are twofold:

1st, rolling more dice on a check can be problematic, not only because more rolling slows things down, but also because some groups don't have many sets of dice, and once skill ranks and characteristics start increasing, it may be a pain to keep track of what the first roll had before scooping the dice to roll the second.

2nd, it's not well-balanced to be comparing a roll vs. a difficulty (typically average, with upgrades, and possibly Setbacks for defense) and an unopposed roll (vs. simple difficulty).

I think the simplest solution would be to keep the talents as they are now, and either reduce the Threat cost to activate Improved Parry/Reflect to 2 Threat, or add in the option of spending a Destiny point to activate, in addition to the options of 3 Threat or 1 Despair. That gives you the ability to return shots on your own terms, but not in an unlimited fashion, plus it serves to keep the ability in check for a whole party , which could be a problem with some of the other possible options where a whole group of Jedi might be totally overwhelming their opposition with returned shots on every attack.

Also, as an aside, I see nothing wrong with one person Reflecting a shot at another target who then proceeds to Reflect it back--there are some scenes in the EU where one Jedi is Reflecting blaster fire at a Sith who's then Reflecting those shots back at the Jedi (or someone else), I believe, although it would be a little silly to have a blaster bolt tennis match...silly, and awesome .

This immediately came to mind.

In spite of my earlier remark, I do think that the ability to make an immediate counterstrike after using Parry/Reflect really should be separate from the base talents, as rolling said counterstrike ability into Parry/Reflect starts making them too good, particularly for careers like Niman Disciple (or Shii-Cho Knight under my revised layout) that offer them both as Row 1 talents.

I still have qualms with the activation of Improved Parry/Reflect, with an added skill check being my least favorite "solution" since it slows combat down. I'd sill prefer something that gives the players a bit more control as to when they'd use the Improved Parry/Reflect over hoping their opponent rolls certain values on the dice though.

Could ultimately just be that the stress-test I did was an odd result. I'm willing to trust that the various alpha testers did their part to put the various mechanics through its paces. I've got a couple other possible ideas to make the ability to use Improved Parry/Reflect a bit less random, but I'm going to test those out first before I make mention of them here.

In spite of my earlier remark, I do think that the ability to make an immediate counterstrike after using Parry/Reflect really should be separate from the base talents, as rolling said counterstrike ability into Parry/Reflect starts making them too good, particularly for careers like Niman Disciple (or Shii-Cho Knight under my revised layout) that offer them both as Row 1 talents.

I still have qualms with the activation of Improved Parry/Reflect, with an added skill check being my least favorite "solution" since it slows combat down. I'd sill prefer something that gives the players a bit more control as to when they'd use the Improved Parry/Reflect over hoping their opponent rolls certain values on the dice though.

Conversely, there's the issue that if the activation remained the same, a startinng level Niman Disciple isnt going to be throwing around enough difficulty upgrades and black dice to USE Reflection often enough to matter.

Personally, I feel that it would crowd the talent. But if you did that, Shien's thing needs to be Dodges, Sidesteps and Defensive Stances, the better to "turn attacks back", and not stack up on parrys and Reflects

Donovan, I think I understand where you're coming from and that you think it should be less random. But I think the actual mechanic requiring 3 threat or 1 despair is pretty sound. If something needs to be changed I think it might be to put some more of the talents that upgrade the difficulty of your opponents attacks into the trees with improved parry/reflect to increase the likelihood that they occur. My only concern at that point is if that concentrates too much of a solid combination of defensive and (with improved parry/reflect) offensive abilities in those individual trees, making them overshadow/overpower some of the other specializations.

In spite of my earlier remark, I do think that the ability to make an immediate counterstrike after using Parry/Reflect really should be separate from the base talents, as rolling said counterstrike ability into Parry/Reflect starts making them too good, particularly for careers like Niman Disciple (or Shii-Cho Knight under my revised layout) that offer them both as Row 1 talents.

I still have qualms with the activation of Improved Parry/Reflect, with an added skill check being my least favorite "solution" since it slows combat down. I'd sill prefer something that gives the players a bit more control as to when they'd use the Improved Parry/Reflect over hoping their opponent rolls certain values on the dice though.

Could ultimately just be that the stress-test I did was an odd result. I'm willing to trust that the various alpha testers did their part to put the various mechanics through its paces. I've got a couple other possible ideas to make the ability to use Improved Parry/Reflect a bit less random, but I'm going to test those out first before I make mention of them here.

It's harder to test in a vacuum, but what do you think about the idea of using Destiny points for this?

I don't think there's any reason to add the ability to completely negate damage from an attack with Parry/Reflect. That's something no one else in the EotE/AoR system can do, and is fairly strong, even if it's dependent on rolls. Plus, does your Improved version also carry that negation, or is it competing for the same Threat/Despair?

Also, we have examples of blaster fire being redirected at someone that isn't the original target, and I think that should remain.

Yeah, regarding the full negation of damage, probably went a little overboard as I was writing that up. Otherwise, regarding the actual reflection of the damage -- I'm trying to work the two separate effects (damage reduction, and reflection) into the talent without becoming too confusing, and separate the base talent from the Improved one (base reflect allows hitting the original attacker for base damage and the Improved reflect allows hitting any target for the full damage of the hit -- this way improved does more than just reducing the threat needed by one).

NOTE: Edited the original post

Again, I really do think that rolling the ability to counterattack right into the basic Parry and Reflect talents makes them far too good, and is probably the worse "solution." And I think there's enough on-screen evidence that not every Jedi that learns how to deflect blaster fire also knows how to redirect that shot back at the shooter.

Did some dice rollings to try out the "Despair or 3 Threat" trigger using the dice rolling app on three different devices, doing 20 rolls each at different dice pools for the attacker, but a "standard" difficulty pool of 2 red and a setback (Medium range, armored clothing, rank of Dodge, Sense defensive Control Upgrade but no Strength Upgrade). The dice pools were 2 yellow and a green (a squad of 4 EotE antiquated battle droids using blaster rifles), 1 yellow, 2 green, and a boost die (Journeyman Hunter, EotE), and then 3 yellow and a green (Boba Fett write-up that somebody did a long while back).

I found that Despairs triggered a lot more often this time around, getting 19 out of 60 rolls (oddly enough is Fett that generated the most Despairs). As for generating the 3 Threat, the battle droids did that any instance in which they hit the target, which was about half the time, while the Journeyman Hunter only generated enough threat in 6 of the 20 rolls, and Fett only 2 twice (which makes sense for someone as capable as he is). I suspect if I were to do a series of test rolls

So maybe the easiest solution regarding Improved Parry/Reflect is simply just to drop the Threat requirement from 3 to 2. It's not quite full player agency to use those specific talents, and they're still at risk of taking damage (unless the enemy is using blaster pistols or similar pop-guns), but needing only two Threat would help the players get more use out of them, particularly if Improved Reflect is kept solely within the Shien Expert and the player had to buy it as a non-career spec to get that particularly ability.

Using Destiny Points is an idea, but you might draw the ire of the rest of the party if you start burning them too frequently.

Like I said, if you have 3 challange dice, your odds of getting a despair is about 23%. that's a fairly not insignificant percentage.

I think what I would like to see, is that the reflection can occur: 1/ round, and even on a miss. those two things would increase the odds of being able to take advantage of a dice roll that will trigger the redirection, but also, reduce potential abuse by restricting the use to once per round, so an unlucky string of despairs won't ruin an encounter (any more than an unlucky string of despairs will).

Again, I really do think that rolling the ability to counterattack right into the basic Parry and Reflect talents makes them far too good, and is probably the worse "solution." And I think there's enough on-screen evidence that not every Jedi that learns how to deflect blaster fire also knows how to redirect that shot back at the shooter.

Did some dice rollings to try out the "Despair or 3 Threat" trigger using the dice rolling app on three different devices, doing 20 rolls each at different dice pools for the attacker, but a "standard" difficulty pool of 2 red and a setback (Medium range, armored clothing, rank of Dodge, Sense defensive Control Upgrade but no Strength Upgrade). The dice pools were 2 yellow and a green (a squad of 4 EotE antiquated battle droids using blaster rifles), 1 yellow, 2 green, and a boost die (Journeyman Hunter, EotE), and then 3 yellow and a green (Boba Fett write-up that somebody did a long while back).

I found that Despairs triggered a lot more often this time around, getting 19 out of 60 rolls (oddly enough is Fett that generated the most Despairs). As for generating the 3 Threat, the battle droids did that any instance in which they hit the target, which was about half the time, while the Journeyman Hunter only generated enough threat in 6 of the 20 rolls, and Fett only 2 twice (which makes sense for someone as capable as he is). I suspect if I were to do a series of test rolls

So maybe the easiest solution regarding Improved Parry/Reflect is simply just to drop the Threat requirement from 3 to 2. It's not quite full player agency to use those specific talents, and they're still at risk of taking damage (unless the enemy is using blaster pistols or similar pop-guns), but needing only two Threat would help the players get more use out of them, particularly if Improved Reflect is kept solely within the Shien Expert and the player had to buy it as a non-career spec to get that particularly ability.

Using Destiny Points is an idea, but you might draw the ire of the rest of the party if you start burning them too frequently.

Donovan, I'm inclined to agree with you on the power creep for the base talent in Reflect. I did remove the auto-hit from the base Parry talent (in my edit above).

However, the goal of my exercise above, was to resolve the feeling that not all Jedi could reflect blaster bolts with some basic training -- its something we've come to identify with through all the media. The talent is called "Reflect" after all, and not "Deflect", so I thought putting a limited form of reflecting the attack back at the attacker would give everyone what they wanted. It wouldn't happen all that much (23-33% of the time based on your tests and Thebearisdriving's remarks), and would allow characters to diversify by gaining talents that up their chances of doing so (dodge, side step, etc...), and not necessarily have to dip into the Shien Expert tree to get the signature ability of a Lightsaber wielding Force Sensitive (a.k.a.: Jedi).

Or, if they do dip into Shien Expert, they become much better at it. Not only increasing the likely-hood of reflecting (only needing two threat), but also the power of the reflected shot.

Just explaining my reasonings

-- I'm sure whatever shakes out of this beta will be something interesting and provides us all with the appropriate "feel".

JediHamlet,

I think your attempts are trying to add a D&D/Pathfinder-esque level of rules complication to a system that doesn't really warrant or support it, especially for talents that can be snagged by starting characters.