So after extensive testing with the beta thus far, I have found a major issue. At no point, no matter how much xp one spends, can a jedi in this system reach the level we see in the films. Even with a decent amount of xp, group of mooks were able to bring them down fairly easily. This is due primarily to the fact that in this system, damage can get to absolutely insane levels where as defense cannot.

No matter how much damage a jedi can parry/reflect, they will NEVER match the levels of damage output the majority of you know can be produced with relatively little time and xp.

The parry and reflect talents as they stand have the basic problem of just not being enough. The inherent issue is the separation of the two talents.

What was discussed between myself and a very good GM friend, was merging the parry and reflect talents with the caveat that they are only usable if you have the sense power up (committed die). By doing this it gives a slight boost to defense while not being overpowered.

By the numbers:

Consular: 6 ranks (8 total reduction)
Guardian: 9 ranks (11 total reduction)
Mystic: 5 ranks (7 total reduction)
Seeker: 5 ranks (7 total reduction)
Sentinel: 5 ranks (7 total reduction)
Warrior: 5 ranks (7 total reduction)

Keep in mind that with an average brawn (2-3), light armor (+1-2 soak), and using a pure Jedi character, the change is not overpowering, but helps to balance out the broken damage system currently in place.

Prior to this change, jedi were easily defeated by equivalent xp characters. Example characters (bounty hunter and guardian) were given 600xp and 10000 credits. Bounty hunter won in 8 out of 10 mock battles. After the change, it went down to 5 out of 10 for a nice even split.

However, after looking over the last couple pages, I would agree that simply reversing the numbers (+1 soak with an additional +2 per rank instead of +2, +1 p.r.) brings everything up to better levels without changing any of the wording. I would still add the caveat above which requires the sense power be activated in order to gain the ability of parry/reflect.

So after extensive testing with the beta thus far, I have found a major issue. At no point, no matter how much xp one spends, can a jedi in this system reach the level we see in the films.

Is this the goal?

I don't mean this to sound like a smarmy thing to say, but the characters we see in the films are some of the best in the universe. Obi-wan, Anikin, Yoda, Palpatine, even Luke. Are these the types of characters we should expect out of this RPG?

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As to Parry and Reflect being "weak" agaisnt multiple enemies, they are still better than not having the talents.

If a 14 wound 14 strain character was attacked by 2 "enemies" for an average damage of 8 and soak of 4, they would be unconscious after 4 hits. If that same character had even 1 rank of the applicable parry/reflect, they could stay up for an extra 3 hits. That is essentially/close too twice the sustainability in that encounter. And again, a much more easily recoverable pool of resource (strain). Now, if the "enemies" took 3 average attacks to defeat, the non-parry/reflect character would be unlikely to defeat these odds, while the parry/reflect character could, and with less damage sustained. And most importantly it can be done.

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The disconnect here, the core of this discussion is that people want to the jedi to reflect the greatest Icons they see in the films, but the truth of the SW universe is that most jedi die to combined fire (Geonosis, order 66, etc) and they are not the invulnerable characters that SAGA and other systems might have us believe.

The power of the reflect and parry is strong, and their immediate gains and strength in the game is balanced against a talent like enduring or dedication, which be comes cumulatively more powerful the more of them you acquire. Reflect and Parry start strong and have a more shallow power curve. parry also provides a distinct advantage against LS attacks, which enduring and others can't provide.

I'm still playing around with these, and we will for several months, but in my group so far, at three levels of play, we have found that parry and reflect are quite good at their current stats and quantity.

Is this the goal?

However I fundamentally disagree with GalenParatus, with enough EXP I could easily emulate the Prequel movies in my game.

Does this mean the "Bounty Hunter vs Jedi Fight" has the BH and Jedi at the same level? No, it possibly does not, but then I'm not particularly concerned with that.

Since I'm running a game based on the only 3 movies that matter, A New Hope, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. And I have no doubt the two guys in my game (Ace Pilot/Gunner and a Ronin Jedi Trainee) will mesh just fine.

Interestingly enough, I had a chance to run a fight between a Seeker/Ataru Striker and a Bounty Hunter/Assassin, both at Knight-level and with the appropriate resources (basic lightsaber for the Ataru Striker, 10K in gear for the hunter).

Having those two ranks in Reflect, both at the default level and the upgraded advancement I've proposed, went a long way towards in helping the Ataru Striker stay in the fight, with the upgraded advancement method really not providing any major boon over the course of the fight. Of course, also having the Sense power with the defensive Control Upgrade and a rank in the Dodge talent helped too. Assassin was equipped with a beefed-up blaster carbine (unmodified augmented spin barrel and jury-rigged for lowered crit rating), a vibrosword with a mono-molecular edge, and wearing armored clothing. While both characters had 3 stimpacks on hand, the Ataru Striker only needed one after the fight was over, while the Gadgeteer burned all three given that his own Soak Value was blazed right through by the lightsaber.

However, the Ataru Striker was just barely under his Strain Threshold though, as burning 4 Strain every turn (1 for Dodge, 3 for Reflect or Parry) takes a toll, so those talents are balanced. Though I suspect that a Soresu Defender would be a bit more of a tank in general, that at least fits with Soresu being more about defense.

Was also interesting to note that the Assassin never generated a single Despair or enough Threat that the Ataru Striker would have been able to trigger Improved Parry if they'd had it in either fight.

Now I suspect the fight would have greatly favored the Assassin if both were starting-tier PCs, given the Assassin could still get pretty sweet gear (no attachments, but load-out would be pretty similar if taking the +2500 credits option) while the Ataru Striker would be limited in both Force powers available and weaponry. Which I take to be a confirmation of the design team's idea that a "Jedi" isn't going to start out being uber, but with enough time and XP, they will get there.

Parry and Reflect does great against multiple opponents like we see in the Films and CW … if those opponents are in minion groups (which is generally what you see on screen).

Once named opponents show up, then things start getting more difficult for the Jedi, but that too follows canon.

Parry and Reflect does great against multiple opponents like we see in the Films and CW … if those opponents are in minion groups (which is generally what you see on screen).

Once named opponents show up, then things start getting more difficult for the Jedi, but that too follows canon.

Yeah I think that a lot of people are looking at enemies as enemies when not all are created equal. Fedration battle droids for example are probably 4 WT and 3 soak, each swing of the lightsaber would take out at least 2 and likely more than that. Minions do wonders to make characters feel like badass jedi.

Parry and Reflect does great against multiple opponents like we see in the Films and CW … if those opponents are in minion groups (which is generally what you see on screen).

Once named opponents show up, then things start getting more difficult for the Jedi, but that too follows canon.

Yeah I think that a lot of people are looking at enemies as enemies when not all are created equal. Fedration battle droids for example are probably 4 WT and 3 soak, each swing of the lightsaber would take out at least 2 and likely more than that. Minions do wonders to make characters feel like badass jedi.

"Antiquated Battle Droid (B1 battle droid)

4 soak, 4 wound Minion,

Group skill Range heavy,

2 agility, 2 brawn, 1 everything else.

abilities: Droid."

Pg 410, EoE.

Wow! not bad for guessing.

Eh... I'm feeling that maybe Donovan should just play using the RAW for a few months and see how it works for him.

Eh... I'm feeling that maybe Donovan should just play using the RAW for a few months and see how it works for him.

I have been playing by the RAW where Parry and Reflect are concerned pretty much since the book came out, starting at GenCon and twice now with the character I play in my regular group, with the GM having thrown both minion groups and individual rivals at my character to see just how quickly a PC with those talents will wind up burning through their strain during an encounter. The playtest combat of a one-on-one fight that I ran was the first and only time that I've used the proposed change in how the damage mitigation value increases per rank.

I also find it hilarious that you who has quite often cast aside numerous rules in this book after doing nothing more than taking a mere glance at them is now saying that somebody should play by RAW first, when said person (me) has been playing the game by the current state of RAW. Talk about the pot calling out the frakking kettle. How about you take your own advice and play the game under the RAW yourself instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

Parry and Reflect does great against multiple opponents like we see in the Films and CW … if those opponents are in minion groups (which is generally what you see on screen).

Once named opponents show up, then things start getting more difficult for the Jedi, but that too follows canon.

Or when beset by multiple groups of minions at one time.

Parry and Reflect does great against multiple opponents like we see in the Films and CW … if those opponents are in minion groups (which is generally what you see on screen).

Once named opponents show up, then things start getting more difficult for the Jedi, but that too follows canon.

Or when beset by multiple groups of minions at one time.

Both instances are correct.

In last Saturday's game session, my PC at one point had two groups of stormtrooper minions (3 each) target him (openly brandishing a ligthsaber will do that) and at that point I only had a single rank of Reflect but the Sense defense upgrade going (which is often my first action in combat is to activate that). Being able to mitigate 3 points of damage on top of my 3 Soak helped quite a bit, as without Reflect I'd have been dropped by the combined damage of those two attacks, but I still took a fair bit of damage as well as chewing up 6 points of strain in just one round. Had there been a third group to shoot at at me, then I probably would have been done for.

I also find it hilarious that you who has quite often cast aside numerous rules in this book after doing nothing more than taking a mere glance at them...

Sat down seriously with the books a month back and joined this message board...

And I've gmaed long enough to know my feelings on "Class/Careers" and other such limiting nonsense. How much longer should one play using the rules before you'll stop saying "Maybe you play using the RAW"* every time someone starts a homerules thread?

* I'm including all the RAW Warriors in this question. The rallying cry of "It's not RAW, but it would make a nice houserule!" is so very sad.

... is now saying that somebody should play by RAW first, when said person (me) has been playing the game by the current state of RAW.

Parry and Reflect does great against multiple opponents like we see in the Films and CW … if those opponents are in minion groups (which is generally what you see on screen).

Once named opponents show up, then things start getting more difficult for the Jedi, but that too follows canon.

Or when beset by multiple groups of minions at one time.

Both instances are correct.

In last Saturday's game session, my PC at one point had two groups of stormtrooper minions (3 each) target him (openly brandishing a ligthsaber will do that) and at that point I only had a single rank of Reflect but the Sense defense upgrade going (which is often my first action in combat is to activate that). Being able to mitigate 3 points of damage on top of my 3 Soak helped quite a bit, as without Reflect I'd have been dropped by the combined damage of those two attacks, but I still took a fair bit of damage as well as chewing up 6 points of strain in just one round. Had there been a third group to shoot at at me, then I probably would have been done for.

I think what I would like to see is a little more reflect thrown around in the talent trees. Note how aggressor has 1 rank of reflect. If each of the careers had one of their non-LS specs swap out a less good talent for reflect (at a reasonable 15 or less xp cost) I think you could make characters that had a good amount of reflect capacity, and prevent many character from being pigeoned into the saber combat trees.

Dono, I'm glad you had a positive experience with the talents. If you still feel strongly that they need that steeper power curve, hey, that's life. I can't cry over that much one way or the other.

Now here is a question. What if improved reflect/parry allowed you to apply a despair to the check for a destiny point, after success or failure was determined? Similar to improved unrelenting skeptic. The redirect option could instead be incorporated in a the same talent or into a new "redirect/counterstrike talent."

n this way, you give players more capacity to actively affect the redirection of attacks, but without changing the basic structure of the mechanic?

Parry and Reflect does great against multiple opponents like we see in the Films and CW … if those opponents are in minion groups (which is generally what you see on screen).

Once named opponents show up, then things start getting more difficult for the Jedi, but that too follows canon.

Or when beset by multiple groups of minions at one time.

Both instances are correct.

In last Saturday's game session, my PC at one point had two groups of stormtrooper minions (3 each) target him (openly brandishing a ligthsaber will do that) and at that point I only had a single rank of Reflect but the Sense defense upgrade going (which is often my first action in combat is to activate that). Being able to mitigate 3 points of damage on top of my 3 Soak helped quite a bit, as without Reflect I'd have been dropped by the combined damage of those two attacks, but I still took a fair bit of damage as well as chewing up 6 points of strain in just one round. Had there been a third group to shoot at at me, then I probably would have been done for.

How experienced is your Jedi character? If 9 stormtroopers were opening fire on a padawan at the same time it doesn't sound unreasonable to me that he'd be taken out.

After running several combats with different builds, I am of the impression that the modification suggested by DM for the Parry and Reflect talents may be a good one (I have to try it though). I also have the impression that 3 strain to activate the talent is too much, PCs burn a lot of strain during combats (may be it is the way I play?) and the Jedi runs out of strain soon. Reducing the cost to 2 may be better. Thoughts?

By the way, this fight between, evileeyore and the rest is clouding the discussion. Can you move it somewhere else please?

By the way, this fight between, evileeyore and the rest is clouding the discussion. Can you move it somewhere else please?

You could say that about almost every thread.

Demigonis,

The PC in question has 335 XP, but he's only recently been spending it on F&D material, with most of his XP having been spent on the Force Emergent spec (character started as a Smuggler/Scoundrel) and various Force powers. So I'd say he's definitely at "Padawan" level in terms of what he can do with a lightsaber (2 skill ranks, 1 rank each in Parry and Reflect), and it's certainly in keeping with this game's idea of "combat = dangerous" that I nearly got taken down by stormtroopers given that he'd made himself a rather big target in the first place (needed the lightsaber to take down a beefed-up combat droid that already maimed another party member and was looking to do the same to a second).

Yepesnopes,

I don't know if it's the way you play or the way the GM runs the encounters. If the bad guys all gang up on you, then yes you're going to burn through strain very quickly. I saw this happening both with my PC as noted above, as well as at the FFG GenCon game I played in, with the Shii-Cho Knight burning through almost all 13 points of her strain threshold in one round due to the various bad guys ganging up on her in melee and thus forcing her to use Parry each time to avoid taking a lot of damage.

From talking with Sam Stewart face to face about this, he explained that the talents were very much designed to delay the inevitable (particularly where lightsaber duels are concerned) rather than outright negating the attack (which was how WotC's Saga Edition handled things, though with what would amount to an opposed check in this system). Again, it's keeping with the system's idea that "combat = dangerous" and that immunity to any form of attack should have a price tag attached. In the case of Parry and Reflect, that cost is not only the strain suffered, but also the XP needed to really stock up on those talents.

To go back to something Jay Little said when I was talking with him about the system at GC'13, this game is ultimately a resource management system, with the player having to decide how they want to expend their resources, be it Destiny Points, Strain, Force Points, and even committing Force dice to an effect. So I think the 3 strain cost is fine for these talents, as it encourages the PC to not fall prey to a case of Leroy Jenkins Syndrome and to fight smart , which is something that most PCs in this system should be doing anyway.

Demigonis,

The PC in question has 335 XP, but he's only recently been spending it on F&D material, with most of his XP having been spent on the Force Emergent spec (character started as a Smuggler/Scoundrel) and various Force powers. So I'd say he's definitely at "Padawan" level in terms of what he can do with a lightsaber (2 skill ranks, 1 rank each in Parry and Reflect), and it's certainly in keeping with this game's idea of "combat = dangerous" that I nearly got taken down by stormtroopers given that he'd made himself a rather big target in the first place (needed the lightsaber to take down a beefed-up combat droid that already maimed another party member and was looking to do the same to a second).

Yepesnopes,

I don't know if it's the way you play or the way the GM runs the encounters. If the bad guys all gang up on you, then yes you're going to burn through strain very quickly. I saw this happening both with my PC as noted above, as well as at the FFG GenCon game I played in, with the Shii-Cho Knight burning through almost all 13 points of her strain threshold in one round due to the various bad guys ganging up on her in melee and thus forcing her to use Parry each time to avoid taking a lot of damage.

From talking with Sam Stewart face to face about this, he explained that the talents were very much designed to delay the inevitable (particularly where lightsaber duels are concerned) rather than outright negating the attack (which was how WotC's Saga Edition handled things, though with what would amount to an opposed check in this system). Again, it's keeping with the system's idea that "combat = dangerous" and that immunity to any form of attack should have a price tag attached. In the case of Parry and Reflect, that cost is not only the strain suffered, but also the XP needed to really stock up on those talents.

To go back to something Jay Little said when I was talking with him about the system at GC'13, this game is ultimately a resource management system, with the player having to decide how they want to expend their resources, be it Destiny Points, Strain, Force Points, and even committing Force dice to an effect. So I think the 3 strain cost is fine for these talents, as it encourages the PC to not fall prey to a case of Leroy Jenkins Syndrome and to fight smart , which is something that most PCs in this system should be doing anyway.

I agree with a lot of this. I feel like too many people seem to want all Jedi to be as "plot invinicible" as Anakin and Obi-wan in the prequel trilogy. Jedi die. We see it a number of times. I think having it be resource management is a good way to handle it. No one can just keep fighting/parrying/reflecting forever. I really wasn't a huge fan of an all-or-nothing approach to parrying/reflecting.

Yeah, I like the Strain associated with using Parry/Reflect, as it mirrors descriptions from the books of someone (like Luke) getting worn out maintaining a defense like this for a prolonged period of time vs. many opponents.

Updated the initial post to account for some updated thoughts on the topic, as well as include some tweaks to Niman to have it further account for it's nickname as the "Diplomat's Form."

Probably someone commented it yet but, Improved Parry/Reflect activation cost seems a bit too high. Get 3 Threats return damage (at least with blasters) seems pretty difficult considering that Defense values uses to be so low.

A typical Jedi defense in movies can be 2 Red (2 Upgrades from Sense), 1 Setback from armored robes or similar and maybe 1 more ih fights a bit defensively. I rolled a few times and the general sensations is that its difficult to return blaster fire (above 30%).

It's ok or do you believe that the cost must be lowered?

Thanks!

Mentioned this in a thread in the General Forum, but making a separate topic here.

I really do like the way that Parry and Reflect function, reducing damage instead of jacking the PC's defense scores up. However, I can't help but feel that the current formula is being used as a way to pack the Lightsaber Form specializations by simply adding additional ranks of Parry and Reflect until the tree is full.

To that end, i suggest that the damage mitigation value be changed in one of two ways:

Option 1: Start at base 1 and that each additional rank provides a +2 bonus to that value. So if an Ataru Striker has Parry 2 and Reflect 1, then the could negate 5 damage from a melee attack or 3 damage from a ranged attack.

Option 2: Keep the +1/rank progression, but up the starting value to 3 instead of 2. To use the Ataru Striker example with Parry 2 and Reflect 1, they'd be able to reduce the damage from a melee attack by 5 and ranged attacks by 4.

In the long run, Option 2 would be the least problems with balance, as it provides an early bonus but scales at a sensible rate once a PC starts taking other LS Form specializations.

Now if either of these is implemented, in order to keep the Parry/Reflect damage mitigation values from getting too big, simply replace an instance of Parry and/or Reflect as follows:

Soresu Defender

Column 1/Row 4 - replace Parry with Reflect

Column 2/Row 4 - replace Reflect with Improved Reflect

Reasoning : Obi-Wan Kenobi is pretty much the icon of Soresu, having been noted as a master of the Form in the RotS novelization. Given that Soresu itself was developed out of both basic blaster deflection training and the idea of turning a foe's attack against them, it seems odd that they don't have the ability to redirect blaster fire, particularly as we do see Obi-Wan doing just that, and as far as the current lore goes, he never touched Shien as a Form, being versed in Shii-Cho, Ataru (Qui-Gon's influence), and then Soresu (adopted after Episode 1 in the wake of Qui-Gon's death and acknowledgement of Ataru's lack of prolonged defense).

Makashi Duelist

Column 1/Row 3 - replace Parry with Defensive Training or Defensive Stance

Reasoning : 5 ranks of Parry under the revision suggested above makes a Makashi Duelist a bit too potent in terms of damage negation, so at least one rank of Parry would need to go otherwise they'd be stopping 11 points of melee damage, where 4 ranks of Parry would let them negate 9 points of melee damage under the revised formula. Also, a fair bit of the fluff on Makashi is that it's about controlling the space between you and the attacker, fitting given that the Form has it's basis on classic fencing styles.

Ataru Striker

Column 1/Row 5 - replace Parry with Improved Reflect, also remove the link between Row 4 and Row 5 in Column 1.

Reasoning : Ataru's not known for prolonged defensive strategy, and was developed as one response to address the problem of Soresu's "turtle tactics" causing fights to drag on and put both the Jedi and those around them in greater danger, but it does incorporate a fair portion of blaster deflection/reflection training, enabling the user to bounce an attack back as a means of resolving a fight that much faster. And with equal ranks of Parry and Reflect, an Ataru Striker is fairly equal on both defensive options. Also, in doing some more reading, it took Qui-Gon some degree of effort to overcome Ataru's inability to properly reflect blaster fire; in other words, it took Dedication prior to gaining Improved Reflect

Shien Expert

Column 2/Row 4 - replace Defensive Stance with Improved Parry

Reasoning : One of the big tenets of Form V (which covers both Djem So and Shien) is to win the fight through overwhelming power, particularly by turning your opponent's attacks back upon them. To again draw from the RotS novelization, Dooku begins to realize he's in trouble when Anakin starts to turn the older warrior's own 'saber attacks back on him, leading the Count to admit that Anakin was perhaps one of the finest Djem So practitioners he'd ever seen. Improved Parry is in keeping with that mindset of crushing outright instead of fighting defensively; Form V was the other response to Soresu's "turtle tactics."

Shii-Cho Knight

Column 1/Row 1 - replace Parry with Reflect

Column 4/Row 5 - replace Parry with Reflect

Reasoning : Shii-Cho is the foundation on which all the other Forms were built, so it seems odd that it has no means of dealing with blaster fire when that was one of the things it was initially developed to deal with. It's considered something of an archaic Form, but still viable in more modern times, a contrast to Makashi which fell out of favor/use given its focus on melee combat.

Niman Disciple

Column 2/Row 4 - replace Reflect with Researcher

Column 4/Row 2 - replace Parry with either Well-Rounded or Nobody's Fool

Reasoning : Niman is also know as the "Diplomat's Form" due to providing basic competence with various aspects of lightsaber combat, but at the same time not requiring intense study as the other Forms did, thus permitting the student to study other topics, with diplomacy and lore frequently being common choices. The specialization already does represent this by providing Leadership and Negotiation as additional career skills, but adding the suggested talents would further strengthen this notion, particularly the Well-Rounded talent to account the for "other areas of study" angle.

Edit: Made some changes to the proposal of how the damage mitigation value of Parry and Reflect should be tweaked, as well as adding some possible revisions to Niman Disciple.

I vote Option 1, with reductions in the number of Parry/Reflect talents in each tree.

Should Sorersu end up with more Reflect than Parry? I'm leaning toward its being balanced between the two (particularly since it has Defensive Stance, but no Sidestep).

Makashi changes look good.

Could Qui-Gon's effort to overcome Ataru's weakness in dealing with blaster fire also be translated as, "he practiced in another form?" If it stays, I like it coming after Dedication.

Shien and Shii-Cho changes look good.

Probably someone commented it yet but, Improved Parry/Reflect activation cost seems a bit too high. Get 3 Threats return damage (at least with blasters) seems pretty difficult considering that Defense values uses to be so low.

A typical Jedi defense in movies can be 2 Red (2 Upgrades from Sense), 1 Setback from armored robes or similar and maybe 1 more ih fights a bit defensively. I rolled a few times and the general sensations is that its difficult to return blaster fire (above 30%).

It's ok or do you believe that the cost must be lowered?

Thanks!

If you look at how often blaster fire gets returned to hit someone in the films, it's fairly rare.

I'd say a decent change might be including a reduction to either 2, or 1 threat needed when using Supreme Reflect/Parry, or allowing for Destiny points to be used when actively trying to return shots.

Probably someone commented it yet but, Improved Parry/Reflect activation cost seems a bit too high. Get 3 Threats return damage (at least with blasters) seems pretty difficult considering that Defense values uses to be so low.

A typical Jedi defense in movies can be 2 Red (2 Upgrades from Sense), 1 Setback from armored robes or similar and maybe 1 more ih fights a bit defensively. I rolled a few times and the general sensations is that its difficult to return blaster fire (above 30%).

It's ok or do you believe that the cost must be lowered?

Thanks!

If you look at how often blaster fire gets returned to hit someone in the films, it's fairly rare.

I'd say a decent change might be including a reduction to either 2, or 1 threat needed when using Supreme Reflect/Parry, or allowing for Destiny points to be used when actively trying to return shots.

I think with a reduction to 2 you'll see it too often. Really there is defense and there are abilities/talents which increase the difficulty of your enemy's next combat check. There are definitely reasonable ways to get them to roll 3 threats as your Jedi grows in power.