But this is also a Star Wars game. Once it stops feeling like that then it would be a dead game to many of us.

No need for a forth faction, the three work perfectly.

Smugglers aren't a faction, they're basically space truckers that work for or try to avoid the other three, there's no reason a fleet of them would go into battle. Prequel ships belong in their own game, which might be cool. I'm sure if they existed there'd be plenty of friendly games that mix the TO & prequel ships. There's not enough Jedi/Sith to make a seperate fsction durring the rebellion, and the ones that exist are already rebels or imperials. Whatever the hell the Vong are, people hate them and they're from the future that no longer exists. There's the corporate sector, they fit into the timeframe, but who cares about them, right.

Here's an idea, Campaign/Scenario packs. You get a booklet with both one-off scenarios and a longer campaign, a ship or two that take part in the missions, and some new obstacle tokens.

I put in discussion in this topic, Smugglers and Spies, greettings.

FFG's other Star Wars games have similar guidelines for factions. You have Rebel Alliance, Imperial Navy, Scum & Villainy (already here), then also Smugglers & Spies, Jedi, and Sith. It's not a stretch of logic by any means to expect that X-Wing will follow suite, especially with how much art recycling they enjoy doing (Not a complaint, just a fact).

Sure it is. Jedi and Sith in the LCG are pretty much extensions of the Rebel Alliance and Imperial Navy factions: Sith is the Imperial Government and Palpatine's little "projects" and Jedi is Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda. Smugglers and Spies likewise is the Rebel aligned Fringers, Lando, Han and the like. They're all already under the Rebel umbrella and have already been released under it.

I didn't think Third Faction would happen because it would be too far behind: Most Wanted artfully fixed that. But these new factions, what would they even have? Scum and Villany has no shortage of ships and together X-wing's faction trio cover everything.

See, none of these arguments really work against a fourth faction because they were used in defense of the two-faction paradigm. And look where we are now. People who knocked these objections aside while paving the way for a third faction can't suddenly hide behind them now.

We already had Boba and Kath in the Empire. Now, they're in Scum & Villainy. We already had Y-Wings, Z-95s, and HWKs in Rebels. Now, they're in Scum & Villainy. Just like S&V Boba shows what Boba is like when not on the official Imperial payroll, a Smugglers & Spies Han Solo would show a Han Solo when he's apart from the Rebel Alliance.

The third faction only got 3 brand new ships, I guarantee you there are at least 3 ships a Smugglers faction could get at launch in addition to what they borrow from the existing factions.

I really appreciate the discussion. It seems there's a strong dislike for even the idea of a 4th Faction. However, not many have really addressed the true question, which I've tried to ask people to address in the first place.

Given that there is a limited life span for this game, does it not make sense to add a 4th faction to extend the life cycle? Regardless of your desire for the current 3 factions (or previous 2 factions) to be the only factions, which is obvious by the vehemence of dislike some people express, ignore your personal desire to argue and/or disagree and ask yourself the question - would you rather see a longer life cycle by the addition of a 4th faction or a shorter life space with the current status?

I personally don't care if there's 2, 3, 4 or 6 factions, I'd rather see this game have a long and fruitful expansion.

Jacob

We did answer the question. There is almost no ship in the EU that couldn't be fit into one or many of the existing three. Adding a 4th does nothing to extend the lifespan of the game. Any time it would add would be added by including the new ships in existing factions or repainting them and selling them to us all over again. People have posted images that have 20+ tie variants alone. There are new shows and movies on the horizon. We're almost running out of content like the Sahara is running out of sand.

Darth Vader

Looking at it from a different perspective: if the Rebel side is all about tanky ships that synergize well with one another,

And

The Imperial ships are all about being maneuverable killers,

And

Scum ships are all about pilots that debuff their opponents,

Then:

What design niches would you like to see filled?

Also: I tend to think of Scum as mercenaries and pirates, rather than being mere criminals. As such, it makes sense for them to have heavily armed ships that can stand toe to toe with military ships. And it also makes sense that they would prefer to make their opponents less dangerous, rather than stand to battle. After all- repairs are expensive!

IF, and this is a massively big if, a fourth faction shows up, you will have to differentiate it somehow. Like Punning Pundit explained, the current three factions all have their own flavor, so the fourth would need to have something unique.

Right now we have synergy/tank, speed/numbers, and debuff/numbers. You can't have tank/numbers really, or tank/speed, without having major power creep, but maybe a faction with low numbers that is decently tanky and focus on battlefield control. Heavy on ion weaponry and abilities that emphasize environmental effects (debris clouds/asteroids).

IF, and this is a massively big if, a fourth faction shows up, you will have to differentiate it somehow. Like Punning Pundit explained, the current three factions all have their own flavor, so the fourth would need to have something unique.

Right now we have synergy/tank, speed/numbers, and debuff/numbers. You can't have tank/numbers really, or tank/speed, without having major power creep, but maybe a faction with low numbers that is decently tanky and focus on battlefield control. Heavy on ion weaponry and abilities that emphasize environmental effects (debris clouds/asteroids).

All I can think of is the concerned (but well armed) civilians brigade to fit that role.

So that role doesn't really need filling.

What fantasy flight games should do for a Expansion, (Not a Wave) is add more variants of the existing ships.

The game is “X-Wing” and each “Wave" is getting away from the main theme, (in my humble opinion.) Fantasy Flight should add more variants of the existing ships. This happens for real in every Air force. Take example of the B-52, there are 12 different variants of this aircraft alone, each one modified and upgrade with new technology.

The dial for these ships would not change, but there should be slight differences in the technology for each variant. This could give all players a new twist and still keep the flavor of X-Wing. (As well as letting the player, keep playing their favorite ships!)

For examples, here are some Tie Fighter Variants;

Tie Fighter equipped with an Auto Blaster as standard issue.

Tie Fighter equipped with a targeting computer as standard issue, and still gets a Modification upgrade. This makes perfect sense, since each “New Model” of Tie Fight is upgraded on the assemble line with the newest technology.

Here are some examples of Tie Bomber Variants.

Variant A removes two torpedo slots and replaces them with second bomb slot and a crew slot. ( I would keep the missile slot just because of the variety of the ordinance.)

Variant B removes two torpedo slots and replaces one with a cannon slot, and the other with a tail gunner, (In effect, having the same firing arcs as a Fire Spray, Forward and Aft)

Variant C become and EW (Electronic Warfare) Version. Remove two torpedo slots and the bomb slot. Add two System upgrade slot and a crew slot. (With the ability to pass Target Locks! Because that is what EW Vessels do!)

Every ship in the game could get several variants.

Fantasy Flight could package in a box the same size as the core game, with four models. The empire expansion would be called, "Pilots of the Empire", And the Rebels expansion would be called, "Pilots of the Rebellion" The Empire would have the Tie Fighter, Tie Advanced, Tie Bomber, And Tie Interceptor. The Rebels would get a X-Wing, A-Wing, Y-Wing, B-Wing. Each expansion would have about a 100 different pilots. as well as pilots of the variants.

What I am really talking about is changing the Upgrade Bar. FFG could just print up more Pilot cards. They could print ships with different upgrades at the bottom. How about "Howlrunner" in a Tie Interceptor. The possibilities or endless giving the game much needed variety.

Just my humble opinion!

If we had these new variants why use the basic ones? Your ew bomber completely negates a named shuttle pilot. This isn't something I could get behind either. You start messing with the ships in this manner and you start to disorient the superb balance this game has. The idea reeks of power creep.

I'll give you credit for thinking of something innovative...but this is ultimately a bad idea.

The.best thing ffg could do right now is release ships at a slightly slower pace (we have been getting inundated as of late.) And release mission packs, new types of obstacles, or put the acrylic tokens and dice up for sale. There are still plenty of other ways to go that don't involve new factions or even new ships...how long have people wanted go do a trench run?

As for the poster above who said these were the same tired arguments..they are even more valid now. as I states elsewhere, nuboba set a bad precedent that was understandable in this one case. I don't want to see Han flying against his 6 years younger self...or against the woolie he saved (mirror matches on a faction level are an obvious exception.) Immersion means slot to most of us...rereleases kill immersion and lead to some very silly match UPS. A "good" scum faction I don't think would add anything substantial shipboard and would likely been seen as no more than a cynical money grab by a company that most of us agree is above that. Myself and most others don't want to be forced to buy the same shop 3 times.

I have seen your threads on this issue before and all I can think of is "balancing nightmare."

If we had these new variants why use the basic ones? Your ew bomber completely negates a named shuttle pilot. This isn't something I could get behind either. You start messing with the ships in this manner and you start to disorient the superb balance this game has. The idea reeks of power creep.

I'll give you credit for thinking of something innovative...but this is ultimately a bad idea.

The.best thing ffg could do right now is release ships at a slightly slower pace (we have been getting inundated as of late.) And release mission packs, new types of obstacles, or put the acrylic tokens and dice up for sale. There are still plenty of other ways to go that don't involve new factions or even new ships...how long have people wanted go do a trench run?

As for the poster above who said these were the same tired arguments..they are even more valid now. as I states elsewhere, nuboba set a bad precedent that was understandable in this one case. I don't want to see Han flying against his 6 years younger self...or against the woolie he saved (mirror matches on a faction level are an obvious exception.) Immersion means slot to most of us...rereleases kill immersion and lead to some very silly match UPS. A "good" scum faction I don't think would add anything substantial shipboard and would likely been seen as no more than a cynical money grab by a company that most of us agree is above that. Myself and most others don't want to be forced to buy the same shop 3 times.

Realism for one, and Variety for the other! Players should have many more pilots to choose from, they really don't have the variety they should and that limits what a player can build, which is usually the same old thing! I finding the game very "Limited" and "Lacking" is many aspects.

I would be soooooo happy to buy some Vong ships!

Check out this awesome Vong Transport (you can see a Croalskipper leaving the bay):

I have seen your threads on this issue before and all I can think of is "balancing nightmare."

If FFG has issued the points correctly on all ships, then this would be an incorrect statement. The "Balance" is in the points you spend on the vessel. The ship is worth so many point for its abilities, So no "balancing nightmare".

I have seen your threads on this issue before and all I can think of is "balancing nightmare."

If FFG has issued the points correctly on all ships, then this would be an incorrect statement. The "Balance" is in the points you spend on the vessel. The ship is worth so many point for its abilities, So no "balancing nightmare".

Like I said, your idea is innovative...but I don't think it is a good idea for this game.

I have seen your threads on this issue before and all I can think of is "balancing nightmare."

If we had these new variants why use the basic ones? Your ew bomber completely negates a named shuttle pilot. This isn't something I could get behind either. You start messing with the ships in this manner and you start to disorient the superb balance this game has. The idea reeks of power creep.

I'll give you credit for thinking of something innovative...but this is ultimately a bad idea.

"reeks of power creep." Well that was unfriendly. If FFG assigns the correct point value to each ship, And each ship is correctly worth the points assigned to it, than your statement is Incorrect. It is simple a matter of a logic, called an If-Then statement. (Yes, MATH saves the day!) This is a Super Awesome Idea, it "Fixes" many problems with the game, without a major overhaul. ( I will Not buy the Second edition of the game!) And as I stated before, "This could give all players a new twist and still keep the flavor of X-Wing. (As well as letting the player, keep playing their favorite ships!)" Note on playing their favorite ships. This will prolong the longevity of the game as a whole.

As to regards to your statement, "Your ew bomber completely negates a named shuttle pilot." I don't find this to be an argument. There are many pilots and many have the same skill set. (Just a note on realism, just look at the US Air Force, Many pilot and Air craft have the same capabilities. Because of this overlap in capabilities, the US is very successful at military action.)

I would be soooooo happy to buy some Vong ships!

Yeah, let's make sure all their fighters make it into the game! There's the Coralskipper, and then there's...

[crickets]

Also, the Yuuzhan Vong are lazy writing.

I have seen your threads on this issue before and all I can think of is "balancing nightmare."

If FFG has issued the points correctly on all ships, then this would be an incorrect statement. The "Balance" is in the points you spend on the vessel. The ship is worth so many point for its abilities, So no "balancing nightmare".

Yeah, definitely a balancing nightmare. I'm sorry you find the game lacking, but playtesting multiple variants of each ship would geometrically increase the workload of the design team. That is, as long as you meant a new variant plus generic and unique pilots for each variant, or a variant that can be piloted by any of the existing pilots for each ship.

If what you're really suggesting is (for instance) a single TIE Fighter pilot with a pilot ability that works like the Autoblaster, then it's not all that unreasonable--but it isn't at all clear from the post I've seen you copy and paste into at least three different threads, including this one.

I think you’re over complicating what I am saying. The changes are all ready printed on the pilot card. It’s not a balancing nightmare at all. You choose your pilots , your upgrades till you reach 100 points, just like before. I gave the example of a Tie fighter that had a Targeting computer as standard issue. So here is my example:

The Tie fighter, Academy Pilot , with Actions (Focus, Barrel Roll, and Evade) is worth 12 points. Add a modification say a targeting computer, this would add 2 more points. So this is worth 14 points.

The Tie Fighter Variant is a Tie Fighter, Academy Pilot, with the Actions printed on the card are, (Focus, Barrel Roll, Evade and Target Lock) for 14 points. Since now the Target Lock is already printed on the card. That Tie Fighter Model –b is entitled to one Modification, because the target lock is now printed on the pilot card. This is the next Model of Tie Fighter.

The Tie Fighter Variant with an auto cannon would be a both a named and unnamed pilot cards. These card would add a Cannon upgrade on the bottom of the card, with the caption Auto Cannon only.

Another example

Tie Bomber Scimitar Squadron Pilot,

Upgrade printed on the bottom of the card are, (not including the one Modification)

Torpedo

Torpedo

Missile

Missile

Bomb

A variant of the bomber what only change the upgrades printed on the bottom of a card

Tie bomber Model B

Upgrades printed on the pilot cards

Crew

Missile

Missile

Bomb

Bomb

This variant replaced the torpedo upgrades and replace one with a crew upgrade and the other with a extra bomb upgrade. And this ship would still be eligible to add one Modification. This is how it is printed on the Pilot Card.

Another example would be a Y-Wing:

Y-Wing Gold Squadron Pilot worth (18 points)

Upgrades, not counting the Modification.

Turret

Torpedo

Torpedo

Astromech

Y-Wing Varaint Model B, The upgrades printed on the Pilot card could be.

Turret

Bomb

Bomb

Astromech

Or

Turret

Missile

Missile

Astomech

Since I don’t know the formula the FFG used to determine points I can’t state what these variants are worth.

An A-Wing with a Chardaan Refit is a variant. The Chardaan Refit “Upgrade” is a hard way to do a variant. The Varaint should be a printed Pilot card.

These variants are printed pilot cards that have a different set of upgrades. That is it, it is that simple. No balancing nightmares. You choose your ship, your upgrades till you reach 100 points. You now have different versions of the ship.

FFG could make one Expansion for the Empire, Called “Pilot of the Empire” and One for the Rebellion, called “Pilots of the Rebellion”. Adding about a hundred pilot card, all the counters needed, plus anything else they wish to add. But No models because that would be a waste.

And please don’t tell me that the players can’t handle to many options. I want many options so I can play this game many years!

Man I'm tied!

The only thing i could see is if there is a new faction from the new movies, other then that there's just no need.

I'm of course not opposed to more factions but I struggle to think of a faction that can't be covered by s&v, I don't think anyone wants the vong and they are limited in terms of aesthetics.

With s&v they've staved off the problem with running out of ships for a few waves, I'm not sure if that will last until the new films arrive, but then I'm not sure the new ships will fit into what we have already.

I have seen your threads on this issue before and all I can think of is "balancing nightmare."

If we had these new variants why use the basic ones? Your ew bomber completely negates a named shuttle pilot. This isn't something I could get behind either. You start messing with the ships in this manner and you start to disorient the superb balance this game has. The idea reeks of power creep.

I'll give you credit for thinking of something innovative...but this is ultimately a bad idea.

"reeks of power creep." Well that was unfriendly. If FFG assigns the correct point value to each ship, And each ship is correctly worth the points assigned to it, than your statement is Incorrect. It is simple a matter of a logic, called an If-Then statement. (Yes, MATH saves the day!) This is a Super Awesome Idea, it "Fixes" many problems with the game, without a major overhaul. ( I will Not buy the Second edition of the game!) And as I stated before, "This could give all players a new twist and still keep the flavor of X-Wing. (As well as letting the player, keep playing their favorite ships!)" Note on playing their favorite ships. This will prolong the longevity of the game as a whole.

As to regards to your statement, "Your ew bomber completely negates a named shuttle pilot." I don't find this to be an argument. There are many pilots and many have the same skill set. (Just a note on realism, just look at the US Air Force, Many pilot and Air craft have the same capabilities. Because of this overlap in capabilities, the US is very successful at military action.)

I think you’re over complicating what I am saying. The changes are all ready printed on the pilot card. It’s not a balancing nightmare at all. You choose your pilots , your upgrades till you reach 100 points, just like before. I gave the example of a Tie fighter that had a Targeting computer as standard issue. So here is my example:

The Tie fighter, Academy Pilot , with Actions (Focus, Barrel Roll, and Evade) is worth 12 points. Add a modification say a targeting computer, this would add 2 more points. So this is worth 14 points.

The Tie Fighter Variant is a Tie Fighter, Academy Pilot, with the Actions printed on the card are, (Focus, Barrel Roll, Evade and Target Lock) for 14 points. Since now the Target Lock is already printed on the card. That Tie Fighter Model –b is entitled to one Modification, because the target lock is now printed on the pilot card. This is the next Model of Tie Fighter.

The Tie Fighter Variant with an auto cannon would be a both a named and unnamed pilot cards. These card would add a Cannon upgrade on the bottom of the card, with the caption Auto Cannon only.

Another example

Tie Bomber Scimitar Squadron Pilot,

Upgrade printed on the bottom of the card are, (not including the one Modification)

Torpedo

Torpedo

Missile

Missile

Bomb

A variant of the bomber what only change the upgrades printed on the bottom of a card

Tie bomber Model B

Upgrades printed on the pilot cards

Crew

Missile

Missile

Bomb

Bomb

This variant replaced the torpedo upgrades and replace one with a crew upgrade and the other with a extra bomb upgrade. And this ship would still be eligible to add one Modification. This is how it is printed on the Pilot Card.

Another example would be a Y-Wing:

Y-Wing Gold Squadron Pilot worth (18 points)

Upgrades, not counting the Modification.

Turret

Torpedo

Torpedo

Astromech

Y-Wing Varaint Model B, The upgrades printed on the Pilot card could be.

Turret

Bomb

Bomb

Astromech

Or

Turret

Missile

Missile

Astomech

Since I don’t know the formula the FFG used to determine points I can’t state what these variants are worth.

An A-Wing with a Chardaan Refit is a variant. The Chardaan Refit “Upgrade” is a hard way to do a variant. The Varaint should be a printed Pilot card.

These variants are printed pilot cards that have a different set of upgrades. That is it, it is that simple. No balancing nightmares. You choose your ship, your upgrades till you reach 100 points. You now have different versions of the ship.

FFG could make one Expansion for the Empire, Called “Pilot of the Empire” and One for the Rebellion, called “Pilots of the Rebellion”. Adding about a hundred pilot card, all the counters needed, plus anything else they wish to add. But No models because that would be a waste.

And please don’t tell me that the players can’t handle to many options. I want many options so I can play this game many years!

Man I'm tied!

I am sorry if my choice of words offends you...but yes this idea really does "reek of power creep" and has the potential to do far more harm than good. It would fundamentally change how this game is played and the role of many of these ships. It may seem like a simple idea...and on the surface it is. But you are either too naive or enamored with how "Super Awesome" this idea is to see its faults. I dont see any issues that exist currently that this proposal would "fix." You yourself admit you wouldnt know how to "properly price" these. I am sure you will admit it would be an extremely daunting task...one that would eat up substantial resources and could potentially turn the game into Xwing ver 2. You may not see it but this would be a catastrophic sea change in what is at least 30% of this game...list building.

FFG WOULD have to reexamine literally every card that has come out and find out how to fairly price each of these "Variants" that would be developed. Creating by your own words 100(!) "new" pilots per faction and 3x new ships for them to fly doesnt sound like a major overhaul?

One of the major pillars of your idea is to essentially give every ship in the game a "royal guard" title. But one is "baked into" the ship already and somehow that is balanced? Simply because its cost is incorporated into the pilot? Every A-wing should immediately have the Chaardaan Refit? Have you thought of how multiple upgrades (both present and future) could oversynergize and create op combos? This can be mitigated quite a bit under the current regime due to the fact that it only effects a very limited number of pilots...not all the pilots in the game. This is one of the major things you are proposing...and yet it isnt a major overhaul? This is simple and not a balancing nightmare? Just because it is printed on the card doesnt make it balanced...have you ever looked through a 40K codex?

I dont understand how you can simply dismiss that making unique pilots no longer unique isnt an issue. Its a pretty big issue as it contributes to faction, pilot,and ship identity. You can choose to dismiss it if you want...but it matters alot to those of us who are playing and I know I wont take kindly to having these abilities moved to multiple pilots without a very very good reason.

Allowing ships to trade their upgrades in for others flings wide open the door to op combos and the balancing nightmare...a major part of the cost of ships is what upgrades they can take and how those upgrades can synergize with each other to make the ship better than the sum of its parts...and those upgrades are priced accordingly through whatever means the devs have. I really dont understand how you are unable to see this.

Options are not a bad thing...but too many options become impossible to playtest and the really good players will be able to break the game quite quickly by finding combos you may have never thought of...this is one of the major problems with the games GW puts out (and part of why I stopped playing 40K.) We have plenty of options as it stands now and I dont feel the games longevity is in doubt at this point in time. This idea as I have stated, will do nothing but hurt the game...its a bad idea. I wish you could see that.

As I said in my last post...you can throw realism out the airlock...as long as we are playing with ships that make noise in space and can be piloted by flashlight wielding space wizards I wont pay too much attention to realism...How does a TIE fly in atmo? It certainly isnt aerodynamic...

We have plenty of longevity coming with the new faction, new movies, and new TV series coming soon...and all the video games and other media sure to follow...while your idea is creative you should devote (heh heh) that energy to a better idea.

EDIT TO ADD: if you want to continue this discussion i would recommend you start a new thread or necro your old one...we dont need to derail this thread

I'm of course not opposed to more factions but I struggle to think of a faction that can't be covered by s&v, I don't think anyone wants the vong and they are limited in terms of aesthetics.

With s&v they've staved off the problem with running out of ships for a few waves, I'm not sure if that will last until the new films arrive, but then I'm not sure the new ships will fit into what we have already.

The trade federation, corporate guns who were active and dangerous in the rebellion era. The Han Solo chronicles, I think, detail them as separate from the empire and individually powerful enough to hold space while paying the emperor little more than lip service. It opens a 4th possibility where little is known and so it would be a pretty free design space.

FFG did add the Corporate Sector Authority to their rpg books, but I don't know if they'd have enough ships or be popular enough to warrant a place in X-wing.

I think it would be all in the execution. If they look cool and add something distinct, and cool, and not power creepy, I would embrace them. That is a lot of ands though.

I would be soooooo happy to buy some Vong ships!

So let me get this straight... the lectroids are yuuhzan vong? Is an oscillation overthruster a hyperdrive component?

I have seen your threads on this issue before and all I can think of is "balancing nightmare."

If FFG has issued the points correctly on all ships, then this would be an incorrect statement. The "Balance" is in the points you spend on the vessel. The ship is worth so many point for its abilities, So no "balancing nightmare".

Balance isn't just about point costs it also affects ability synergy. Howlrunner and Biggs (or the 20pt Scyk pilot) are considered balanced by themselves but if Howlrunner and Biggs were used together as part of a single swarm that could cause issues. Increasing their point costs then "breaks" them from individual use