So I'm thinking of house-rulesing a cloaking device onto a Tie Advanced - how much do people think it's worth in points?

Ooh, any way to edit the thread title?

Don't want to.

On a tie advanced? Probably a few points on vader or free on the generic pilots.

He needs the ACD too, and its already a pricy ship

uhh HOLEY CWAP. That's a fun idea!

The PS3 Phantom is 25 pts. It has a better dial, much better upgrade slots, FOUR attack dice but a down grade in agility and hull slightly.

I would say... maybe 0 or 1 points?

Think about it: would you use a PS2 two dice "phantom" for 22 points? or 25 points for the 4 attack dice real phantom?

Maybe a better idea... give it 3 attack dice, and cloak. then it feels like a real phantom-type ship capable of dealing some damage. and make it cost 1 point cuz the ship is over costed ridiculous. Perhaps a title? To compete for imaginary opportunity cost with my imaginary title that gives it -3pts and a systems slot?

22 points:

3 dice, cloak =) 5 dice on cloaking defense. 5 hp! Lots of fun decloaking movement. weaker dial. can take a missile!

On a tie advanced? Probably a few points on vader or free on the generic pilots.

He needs the ACD too, and its already a pricy ship

uhh HOLEY CWAP. That's a fun idea!

The PS3 Phantom is 25 pts. It has a better dial, much better upgrade slots, FOUR attack dice but a down grade in agility and hull slightly.

I would say... maybe 0 or 1 points?

Think about it: would you use a PS2 two dice "phantom" for 22 points? or 25 points for the 4 attack dice real phantom?

Maybe a better idea... give it 3 attack dice, and cloak. then it feels like a real phantom-type ship capable of dealing some damage. and make it cost 1 point cuz the ship is over costed ridiculous. Perhaps a title? To compete for imaginary opportunity cost with my imaginary title that gives it -3pts and a systems slot?

22 points:

3 dice, cloak =) 5 dice on cloaking defense. 5 hp! Lots of fun decloaking movement. weaker dial. can take a missile!

Wouldn't ACD on Vader be overkill*? PS9, two actions, 3 agility - how would anybody hit him?

I dunno about giving them extra attack - I like the idea that they'd be small and nimble, incredibly hard to hit (six green at range three!), but still not great on the offence, at least not with primary attack. Popping up out of nowhere to fire a missile up your bum would be pretty cool!

I'm thinking one or two points then...

*I can't hear the phrase "wouldn't that be overkill?" without hearing Spike (from Buffy the Vampire Slayer) saying "No, I think it's just enough kill".

Edit: quote fail!

I would say 5 points to add cloak to an advanced

Vader would be a ps9 double action phantom. Only downside is 2 red dice

5 evade dice at range 1-2

Expose or ps11

Don't want to.

Considering it makes no sense for an Advanced to have a cloaking device, you have chosen a random and very powerful mechanic to 'fix' it, so in a way, you really do want to play a Phantom.

Considering it makes no sense for an Advanced to have a cloaking device, you have chosen a random and very powerful mechanic to 'fix' it, so in a way, you really do want to play a Phantom.

Because a Phantom is just an Advanced with a cloaking device?

Easiest way to work it out is to remove the cloaking device from the phantom

What would a ps 3 4222 ship be worth? I think about 20 points

So the cloaking device is worth 5 points

Easiest way to work it out is to remove the cloaking device from the phantom

What would a ps 3 4222 ship be worth? I think about 20 points

So the cloaking device is worth 5 points

I would say 5 points to add cloak to an advanced

Vader would be a ps9 double action phantom. Only downside is 2 red dice

Does that maths include dial and upgrade slots?

Five points does sound about right, instinctively, doesn't it?

Expose on that Vader could work too.

Ooh, a reason to use Expose too, it's a super-fix!

Edit: by "Five points does sound about right, instinctively, doesn't it?" I meant simply as a standard upgrade, not a way of fixing the points cost of the Tie Advanced specifically.

Someone came up with an idea a while back about reverse-engineering the ships to establish the pilot cost. Then swapping the pilots around with various ships. I think a TIE Advanced without pilot worked out to about 19pts, and a Phantom was about 22pts. Then you'd take Vader (10pts) and put him on a Phantom - 32pts (give or take).

Wasn't a perfect plan, but it made for some interesting team ups.

I dunno if I would sacrifice engine upgrade for ACD. It's Vader, it's so easy to stay out of arcs, plus you can cloak next turn and still have an action.

By the way - would expose be worth it mathematically, rather than target lock or focus? I'd probably use Daredevil instead, or maybe VI.

Easiest way to work it out is to remove the cloaking device from the phantom

What would a ps 3 4222 ship be worth? I think about 20 points

So the cloaking device is worth 5 points

I would say 5 points to add cloak to an advanced

Vader would be a ps9 double action phantom. Only downside is 2 red dice

Does that maths include dial and upgrade slots?

Five points does sound about right, instinctively, doesn't it?

MathWing perspective:

A 4/2/2/2 stat line is worth almost exactly 20 points at PS1.

So the original guess of 20 points was a pretty good guess, but its worth 20 points at PS1, not 20 points at PS3. This is relative to a TIE Fighter, which is very points efficient, so you can err on the side of caution and call it 21 points at PS1.

The TIE Phantom costs an effective 23 points at PS1, but it barely gets used without ACD, suggesting that the remaining differences between the TIE Fighter and the TIE Phantom are not worth an additional 3 points. The main practical difference is the cloaking action, so it is reasonable to conclude that the cloaking action is in no way worth 3 points. You could put cloaking on the TIE Advanced for free and it still probably wouldn't get used competitively, because the Advanced is already over-costed by about 4 points.

Advanced Cloaking Device obviously changes everything, and is another discussion entirely. Thankfully ACD is TIE Phantom only.

Edit: since a comparison between the Alpha Squadron Pilot at 3/3/3/0 @18@ PS1 and the Phantom is inevitable, the stat line value of the Interceptor is 16 points at PS1. It (mostly) makes back the 2 point difference with Boost and green 2 turns, relative to the standard TIE Fighter.

Interceptor stat line jousting efficiency: ~89.5%

TIE Phantom stat line jousting efficiency: ~88.2%

Neither ship really gets used at low pilot skill, so if you had to choose one it would be a tough call. Cloak may only get used once, and Boost and green 2 turns don't matter nearly as much on a PS1 ship.

The TIE Phantom costs an effective 23 points at PS1, but it barely gets used without ACD, suggesting that the remaining differences between the TIE Fighter and the TIE Phantom are not worth an additional 3 points. The main practical difference is the cloaking action, so it is reasonable to conclude that the cloaking action is in no way worth 3 points. You could put cloaking on the TIE Advanced for free and it still probably wouldn't get used competitively, because the Advanced is already over-costed by about 4 points.

Advanced Cloaking Device obviously changes everything, and is another discussion entirely. Thankfully ACD is TIE Phantom only.

Yeah, but the Phantoms max out at PS7, and only have 2 agility, and even then I'm not convinced they're rubbish without ACD. What about Stygium on the lower PS guys? And as I said above - if you're Vader (or to a lesser extent Steele with Veteran Instincts) do you need the ACD, or would Engine Upgrade be more useful, so you can be sure nobody ever has a shot on you?

Well Vader has 2 actions so expose + focus?

EU is useful to stay out of arcs until you fight turrets.

That's true - I was playing against my mum the other day (who's only played once before) and her Dutch ended up finishing off my Vader to win the game

Also, is expose + focus better than target lock +focus? Without thinking about it too much, I'd have thought all three actions give you .5 hits each, or something like that?

Hmm, that's quite a difference!

Yeah, but the Phantoms max out at PS7, and only have 2 agility, and even then I'm not convinced they're rubbish without ACD. What about Stygium on the lower PS guys? And as I said above - if you're Vader (or to a lesser extent Steele with Veteran Instincts) do you need the ACD, or would Engine Upgrade be more useful, so you can be sure nobody ever has a shot on you?

Phantoms are being used because of ACD, which lets them:

1. Fire and still have +2 agility from cloak
2. get a free 2-length barrel roll (or fwd) before decloaking

If you can't take ACD, then you can't do either of those. That makes it very hard to price the cloaking action or even Stygium. In Regionals so far, I think only one person used Stygium, and they were supposedly confused about which upgrade was which, and might have meant to take ACD instead.

I don't follow - the de-cloack action* isn't dependent upon ACD. You'd get to use it less often, of course, but you'd still get to use it.

I agree though, the lack of ability to use ACD, which is obviously a great upgrade, needs to be considered. I'd be surprised if that's worth more than a single point though, given that taking it has it's own cost. And let's not forget that being cloaked is less valuable when you have three agility to begin with.

*not action, but whatever it's called

I don't follow - the de-cloack action* isn't dependent upon ACD. You'd get to use it less often, of course, but you'd still get to use it.

I agree though, the lack of ability to use ACD, which is obviously a great upgrade, needs to be considered. I'd be surprised if that's worth more than a single point though, given that taking it has it's own cost. And let's not forget that being cloaked is less valuable when you have three agility to begin with.

*not action, but whatever it's called

You can't fire while cloaked.

ACD gets around this by letting you fire, then perform a free cloaking action. This essentially gives you a 2nd free action, since next round you can (must) perform the 2-speed maneuver before you decloak.

You can't fire while cloaked.

ACD gets around this by letting you fire, then perform a free cloaking action. This essentially gives you a 2nd free action, since next round you can (must) perform the 2-speed maneuver before you decloak.

Yes, but that's not the only way to cloak, and therefore not the only way to de-cloak, and therefore not the only way to get that 2-speed sneakiness thing. Like I said, you'll get it less often, but you'll still get it. If you're Vader then you could follow it up with a barrell roll AND a boost/Daredevil turn!

Expose is better than either Target Lock or Focus on ships using 2 or fewer Attack Dice. At 3 Attack Dice it is a wash. So, Vader at range 2-3 Expose is better that either TL or Focus and at range 1 it is a wash, statistically. Please note that this does not take Crits into account.

However, one thing to consider is that Expose always has a wider range of results because you can never do more damage than the number of dice rolled and you can always do zero damage. I believe this is variance, but I may be wrong.

To me, Vader and the YT are the best ships for Expose. Vader because he can arc dodge and the YT because it's Agility is laughably bad.

You can't fire while cloaked.

ACD gets around this by letting you fire, then perform a free cloaking action. This essentially gives you a 2nd free action, since next round you can (must) perform the 2-speed maneuver before you decloak.

Yes, but that's not the only way to cloak, and therefore not the only way to de-cloak, and therefore not the only way to get that 2-speed sneakiness thing. Like I said, you'll get it less often, but you'll still get it. If you're Vader then you could follow it up with a barrell roll AND a boost/Daredevil turn!

It is, however, the only way to fire "while cloaked" unless you get passed a free action in the combat phase, after you have fired. Those are a lot of conditionals, is it even possible to do that in the game as Imperials right now (without ACD)?