Wings of Glory now, and a new company, because FFG stopped supporting it..

How long is a piece of string? The Star Wars franchise has been popular for over 35 years now, has spanned film, TV, comics, books, toys, video games and multiple generations. There is another series of films due to start at the end of next year.

The X-Wing Miniatures game has been around for approximately 18 months and is showing no signs of slowing down. I'm pretty sure it will be more popular than ever by December 2015 - at which point a whole new range of tasty possibilities may open up

If Warhammer 40,000 is still going 20 years later, X-Wing is hardly in any danger...

Yeah but Warhammer they can A: make up new stuff: B: they delete all the old stuff to force you to buy new stuff and C: it's ****

How much life is left in any game?

Stop worrying and start playing more games.

I was hoping this thread would contain a speculative list of all ships for the three factions that we are likely to see. Not that picture of all the ridiculous types of TIE, but rather ones that are popular and sensible enough that they might actually appear. Then, work back from that list to determine how many more waves of ships there are likely to be.

The main issue is Rebel ships, for which we have, what?

T-Wing (could equally fit in S&V)

R-41 Starchaser (again, could equally fit in S&V)

After that, I can't think of a single Rebel small-base ship that they could release. I could see the T-Wing as being halfway between the Z95 and the A-Wing, but is that a space that needs filling? Same with the R-41... what would its role be to differentiate it from the Z95? There would be a couple of potential large base ships like the Lady Luck, but that would be getting a bit silly and a lot of the smuggler ships that could be used would fit better in S&V now that exists. So, until we get more Star Wars material from the new show or films, I think this is a big limitation for future waves. On the plus side, once this limitation is reached, FFG should have that new material on hand.

I'd like to see repaints for Rebels instead, with more pilots to choose from. There are plenty of Rebel pilots around. I could easily see a Wraith Squadron X-Wing, Green Squadron A-Wing and Grey Squadron Y-Wing for starters.

The only real issues for the Rebel side is that they have a lot more large ships than small ships. I still have a list of 7 ships I want to see for Rebels. And seeing how their original creations from the RPG are starting to seep into other games (the LCG and Imperial Assault), I wouldn't count out original ship just yet...

Gw havent released anything for Battlefeet Gothic for ten years, we still play that.

Ditto necromunda.

A good game isnt good because you need a new thing to buy every week to keep you excited.

A good game is good because it plays well.

To be brutally honest I wouldnt be upset if S&V was the last thing released. My wallet would breath a sigh of relief and there is so much out already you'd have to play for year on a weekly basis to get bored.

Unless you really enjoy buying more stuff than actually playing. I do know some people like that, especially in the airsoft scene.... they have a room full of top end kit, tons of gun, argue about airsoft on forums every day but never actually play the game....

There are two more factions in easy reach: Republic and Separatist. Not to mention Scum having access to a ton of ship types and classes. The old Star Wars miniatures game had dozens of starfighters.

Scum & Villany:

Cloakshape Fighter (As a 'tank' class - also available to Republic Navy and Rebels)

Republic Navy:

Jedi Starfighter

LAAT Gunship (Big Ship)

V-Wing

ARC-170

Y-Wing (Prettier version)

Z-95 Headhunter (Sleeker version from the films)

Jedi Interceptor

Naboo Starfighter

Separatist Navy:

Vulture-class Droid Starfighter

HMP Droid Gunship

Droid Tri-fighter

Hyena-class Bomber

Amongst a few other lesser known ships. And this doesn't get into the Old Republic Era ships (which I would love to see in Armada one day, the Republic Hammerhead ships are great). Basically, FFG is still operating by the constraints of vehicles active during the OT, but if they moved into the Clone Wars Era, they'd have enough ships for another five years. I could pretty easily see these additional ships distinguishing themselves, especially the droid ships which would have the same lack of constraints as the IG-2000. I could see a lot of the clone wars era ships being high maneuverability but having less shielding or attack power than their modern counterpart, or being low maneuverability tanks. And there's nothing to say that Clone Wars era ships are in any way worse than OT-era ships: the TIEs were designed to be mass produced cheaply in a time when the Empire has uncontested naval superiority, and the Rebel ships are often kept together with duct tape and hope. It's easy to make the argument that the OT-era ships are actually worse, overall, than the ships pumped out during an active galaxy-wide war, and not just ships designed for fighting against or with an insurrection.

I still have a list of 7 ships I want to see for Rebels.

What's your list??

There are two more factions in easy reach: Republic and Separatist.

I really hope they don't do this. Unless it is as a separate game. I know the timeline is stretched a bit by the E-Wing, but having Clone Wars era vs. Rebellion era just wouldn't make sense (yes, yes I know mirror matches don't make sense either but at least they're from the same time period). Also, your list of Separatist ships shows how few they really have to draw on for that faction... the releases would be incredibly lop-sided.

Han Solo adventures set the Trade a Federation as a rival to the empire in power. More ships there and a fourth faction. There are scads of ships in the EU and infinite repaint options, updates and side odds and ends.

Basically there is a lot of material left from just video games, they can do more aces packs and make up new stuff, if it is done well.

Don't panic.

I don't think the answer to this question is "...as long as there are new ships," but rather how is FFG looking at the future of the game as a whole. One of the brilliant things they have done so far is creating a GREAT support structure for Tournaments both local and national. As long as FFG puts the time and energy into building and supporting the growing community of X-Wing I don't think the game will be in any danger.

Why I don't think new ships are the answer? Because FFG has made a huge deal over maintaining the value of your collection. They have a clear view of the role an X-Wing fills for the rebels. It doesn't really make any sense to push out new ships that would just replace what we already have. I think we need to be ready to see more "updates" like Rebel Aces to existing ships to keep them relevant and in use. New ships are always on the horizon but if you end up shoving a bunch of ships into the game that are basically the exact same you lose that one beautiful thing FFG has managed to do, make each ship play and feel completely unique. Also, FFG is absolutely brilliant with including new mods and EPTs with each release that completely synergize with existing ships (really curious as to what "Auto Thrusters" is going to do for turrets).

From everything I have seen so far Scum and Villainy look absolutely brilliant. It really looks like FFG has taken steps to make sure that this faction will play COMPLETELY different than Rebels and Imperials. The Illicit upgrades already look like they will feel completely different than Mods or System Upgrades. I don't think people should look at S&V as a replacement for either of the current factions or even in competition with them for FFG's attention. S&V might just help break the tournament scene up and provide counters to some of the more popular builds out there.

And seeing how their original creations from the RPG are starting to seep into other games (the LCG and Imperial Assault), I wouldn't count out original ship just yet...

Example?

Imperial Assault has the players being original characters. And the LCG just had a card made for Lowhrick, apparently an RPG creation.

The sky's the limit err the stars are the limit and with Disney holding the rights you can believe there is going to be a lot more ships and ideas. Star Wars is in a time of transition for better or worse, think of the many hands and minds that will be creating new content. I as a nerd am excited for what's new and to think my son which will be born very shortly in 6 weeks, will have a new Star Wars then what I had is not a terrible thing.

Ep 7/8/9, spin off movies and tv shows, books, games and so much more to come will give us new content for decaides. I know that some are purist that only want 4-6 and old extended unverse but Dream a dream with me of more ships, new untouched yet, pilots and races yet to be seen, content beyond what is thought possible. Each Star Wars nerd has dreamed of being a Jedi or Sith and that alone is worth millions of different ideas.

Just look at the new x-wing that is one new ship alone which has more potential.

In short no we are no where close to being out of ideas or coming to the end.

As far as I can tell, we have at least 10-15 years left in the game before they run out of ships. I left for a vacation last week and created a list of all the ships which would a) fit in the scale and b) look halfway decent (note: my sense of aesthetic isn't the same as yours, so this part is purely subjective). The results are:

Starfighters:

I-7 Howlrunner
Planetary Fighter
Authority IRD
Supa Fighter
*StarViper
Missile Boat
Assault Gunboat
A-9 Vigilence
Skipray Blastboat
Razor Fighter
T-wing
R-41 Starchaser
Cloakshape Fighter
Pinook Fighter
Preybird Fighter
Toscan fighter
Conqueror-class Assault fighter
*Trilon Aggressor assault fighter
Scimitar assault bomber
Chiss Clawcraft
K-wing Assault fighter
Gauntlet class fighter
Cutlass-9 patrol fighter
Miy'til starfighter
Miy'til assault bomber
Sabaoth fighter
C-73 Tracker
Dagger Starfighter
Koensayr Dianoga
Gun Tug
Phoenix Hawk Light Pinnace
TL-118 StarHammer
Incom T-36 Skyfighter
Zebra Starfighter
PTR-3 Vedette
Corsair Cruiser
Dagger-D Police Fighter
*M3-A Scyk Fighter
G1-M4-C Dunelizard
M12 Kimogila
Manta Assault Starfighter
LAF-250 Light Attack Fighter
HLAF-500 Heavy/Light Attack Fighter
Adumari Blade-32 Starfighter
Yevethan D-type Fighter
TIE/gt
TIE/rc
TIE/fc
Shadow Droid
H-wing
LX-980 Lancet
Cal Medium Starfighter

Transports and Large Craft:

YT-2000
Sentinel-class Shuttle
Assault Shuttle
ETR-3 Escort Transport
Combat Utility Vehicle
Dx-9 Stormtrooper Transport
JV-7 Escort Shuttle
ATR-6 Assault Transport
Cargo Ferry
Heavy Lifter
Luxury Yacht 3000
Muurian Transport
Utility Tug
Pursuer Enforcement Ship
YV-666
Vangaurd Heavy Assault Gunship
Jemlaat Sail Yacht
Mindabaal Custom Pleasure Yacht
Baudo Star Yacht
Delaya Courier Ship
YG-4210
Gozanti Cruiser
Barloz Medium Freighter
Anxarta Light Freigther
YT-700 Light Freighter
YT-1150 Medium Transport
B'zabuu Transport
Zuraco Cargo Hauler
CT-200 Medium Transport
Wayfarer Medium Transport
Nella 342 Light Freighter
Ghtroc 720 Light Freighter
TL-1800 Transport
YZ-900 Transport
YKL-37r Nova Courier
YZ-775 Transport
Guardian Light Cruiser

That's 86 ships that look decent and have graphical representation, if you take out the ones that are slated for Wave 6. There are at least two dozen others that have no pictures associated with them which would probably be a lot of fun to fly, and there are others which I'd like but which would likely not be more than humor pieces (personally I'd love to put a Squib Momship on the table, just so I can say "momship" XD ).

If we round up to 90 and divide by 4, then we get 22.5, which we can round down to 22 to account for the Scyk, StarViper and Aggressor. If they do two a year, then they have enough material for 12 years, more if they use other ships and vehicles that I didn't mention.

So I'm not worried at all. You others might be, if you hate some or all of the designs I listed, but hey, I said *I'm* not worried.

I believe S&V provides renewed life by giving new players a lower entry cost and evolves the game to give current players a new experience. If I were a new player, I'd be overwhelmed with the number of available ships and might consider something else with a lower entry cost (I picked the Netrunner LCG over Game of Thrones for that very reason). With Scum & Villainy, we now get a new starting point for new players to jump in without needing to purchase everything right away.

Running out of ships? In the Star Wars Universe? If they made a new ship once a week this game would have a couple of decades left to go. That's one problem this game will never have.

The concept of Limited Design Space is something of an issue for the game and I do agree that their are only so many arch-types that can be applied before ships start to become too similar mechanically. I mean there are literally hundreds of ships in the Star Wars universe on which inspiration can be drummed up to make new ships, but how many different "fighter" class ships can you really make while maintaining relevance of ships that came before it.

In as a whole though a games lifespan is not based on the developers continued support by releasing new products, if there is one thing the gaming has taught us its that.

There are a number of ways they can go about introducing more game space and reason to release more products without interfering with X-Wings existing lines.

For one, they can create X-Wing: The Prequel. A completely separate version of the game with both factions remade using the prequel movies as a source. This allows them to create ships that would otherwise step on toes, it opens up space for several factions beyond just the empire and of gives opportunity to introduce new mechanics based on events from those movies.

Additionally we have a set of new movies coming out, almost certainly their will be new ships and perhaps even a source for new factions on which to base the game.

I also think their is room for the game to include "ground & Air" combat by converting the flight system to include ground forces.. aka The Battle of Hoth (ground vehicles and air vehicles).

Really they have lots of options, the important thing to understand about X-Wing is that it's not such a popular game because the Flight Path system or mechanic is some sort of brilliant design work. I mean its good, but the attraction here is clearly that its the Star Wars universe.. This game would be virtually unplayed if it wasn't driven by the Star Wars franchise.

I also think their is room for the game to include "ground & Air" combat by converting the flight system to include ground forces.. aka The Battle of Hoth (ground vehicles and air vehicles).

Really they have lots of options, the important thing to understand about X-Wing is that it's not such a popular game because the Flight Path system or mechanic is some sort of brilliant design work. I mean its good, but the attraction here is clearly that its the Star Wars universe.. This game would be virtually unplayed if it wasn't driven by the Star Wars franchise.

Agree and disagree. I'd play those game mechanics for a WWII 'battle of britain' game with spits vs meschersmits...or a midway carrier battle with corsairs vs zeros. I actually think the game mechanics are excellent (probably more so for real world fighters than space ships) but I agree the 'SW' tag on it is probably the reason it outsells historical games using a similar mechanic.

But I totally agree with you about an 'atmosheric flight/ground attack' supplement and think the exisiting ruleset could accomodate that probably better than it does huge ships (i'm not anti huge ship, i own both,i'm just a realist)

How so? They still need to buy the Core set. But now, they have no starting point for playing Scum. You may be able to get to 100pts with a Starviper and IG-2000. But with the core essentially be wasted points. As compared to Rebels and Imperials, who can get to $100 pts rather easily, with the purchase of 2 $15 expansions. Imperials even have a few choices now.

I don't see how Wave 6 is anything close to an entry point. The Most Wanted is the best value for those that already have bought into this game.

I think the rebels and empire will remain the starting point for new players. The dirty tricks and control theme of s&v seems more geared to experienced players looking for a different playstyle.

Even if FFG stopped releasing new ships for the rebels and empire, which I don't see happening soon, there's a lot that can be done with Aces packs. Many of the ships out only have 4 pilots, some are underused and only fit a niche role, but that can be fixed with a repaint and some new cards. Look at how many pilots were part of Rogue Squadron, we only have a small fraction of them in print so far.

A game's lifespan isn't directly tethered to it's continued releases, I have a bunch of friends who still only play 2nd edition D&D, and its run ended in the 90's.

Hey we play 'red box' 1st ed D&D occasionally!

We're currently embarking on a west end games 1st ed Star ward rpg campaign.

You dont need new toys to make a great game stay great.

Thats just a short attention span on the players point

@Sithborg: I agree with you, Most Wanted is a better value for existing players; however, that doesn't mean it has no value to new players. I wasn't arguing value, my point was the perception of an entry point, ground floor opportunity for a new player.

But now that I'm going... There are wasted points from Core for players who chose to dedicate to one faction anyway. It also happens when buying any ship a player didn't want/need for the upgrade cards (Lamdas for Advanced Sensors). Or, gaining a ton of extra upgrade cards because a player wants additional ships of the same type (TIE Fighters). There is waste regardless.

I'll tell you what, I may be wrong. I'll let you know when I talk to a new player who buys in at Wave 6 and see what they have to say. We'll save this argument until then.

Back to the point, new players and providing a new experience prolong the life of a game, right?

All games encounter this problem and X-WingTMG has a lot of its bases already covered for the future.

Running out of ships? That wont really be an issue when the movies start churning out. Sure this wont really please the purists, but crew those old codgers and their dollars (hey, wait, I'm one of those codgers!) The facts are that getting younger players is always critical to keeping any game going and the new movies and other future canon will drag a new generation of victi....er, kiddies into the game where they can grow to be older, poorer codgers like us who remember standing in line for hours for the Episode VI.

Limited design space? The game will be due for a reboot in a few years. It's pretty crowded now, but in two more years this game will be a mess and regardless of the pain of having deprecated game pieces and cards, the public will demand a new version of the game to be released. This 2.0 vers of the game should be full of awesome mechanics that were designed with all the current game's shortcomings in mind and hopefully they will gradually phase in the cheese (Biggs, et al) to keep the design space tidy.

Buying time with the scum? Nah, everything looks like it's on track as long as they are planning a reboot at some future date.

New Trilogy, PLUS potentially taking ships from the new show premiering in October.

I'm glad to see such a lively (and civil discussion) about what I obviously feel is a very important, but potentially touchy topic. There's a lot of good points that have been made that allow for a long-lived game:

All games encounter this problem and X-WingTMG has a lot of its bases already covered for the future.

Running out of ships? That wont really be an issue when the movies start churning out. Sure this wont really please the purists, but crew those old codgers and their dollars (hey, wait, I'm one of those codgers!) The facts are that getting younger players is always critical to keeping any game going and the new movies and other future canon will drag a new generation of victi....er, kiddies into the game where they can grow to be older, poorer codgers like us who remember standing in line for hours for the Episode VI.

Limited design space? The game will be due for a reboot in a few years. It's pretty crowded now, but in two more years this game will be a mess and regardless of the pain of having deprecated game pieces and cards, the public will demand a new version of the game to be released. This 2.0 vers of the game should be full of awesome mechanics that were designed with all the current game's shortcomings in mind and hopefully they will gradually phase in the cheese (Biggs, et al) to keep the design space tidy.

Buying time with the scum? Nah, everything looks like it's on track as long as they are planning a reboot at some future date.

X-Wing can get New ships from the movies

This is an interesting possibility for XWM. I wouldn't say it is a foregone conclusion that we will see Ep7 ships in the game eventually. There could be significant issues with anachronistic ships and characters, depending on how far in the future the movie is set. The presence of the E-Wing in the game now does suggest that the scope of the game does extend 5-10 years past the Battle of Endor, at least. I wouldn't say it is a sure thing, but I would be very surprised if Ep7 is not represented in one of the most successful Star Wars tabletop games.

Game System Reboot

This is another interesting way of refreshing the game, but it is problematic. A significant reboot runs the risk of messing up the very popular XWM gameplay formula. It's a lot of work, and reboots are often sore points between game companies and players. Would we have to make a significant purchase to update our collection? That said, it is the most direct way to ensure that the game is up-to-date.

Being able to reprint ships with new pilots or even the same pilots with different abilities could keep the game going forever. With new movies coming their will no doubt be new ships coming. He'll, we even have a new model of X-Wing given to us from JJ himself. The new movies will also introduce more characters as well.

Disney didn't pay a ton of cash to not make a ton of movies. The future is secure as long as Disney is making movies.

Reprinted ships with different cards

Releasing new pilots and upgrades alongside previously released models is something FFG is already doing with the aces kits. Thankfully they repainted the ships, so that there is still value in buying the same models that we probably already had, but there is a potential sore point here. Another future release of an aces-style pack with B-Wings might not be well-received by the community. We already see this a little bit on the forums; in order to access the new upgrades in rebel aces we need to buy ships we already have, or buy single cards at a considerable markup. I only need so many B-Wings; eventually models would become a card tax to many players. Imagine if there was a Decimator reprint with some really great upgrade cards in it: the backlash would be significant. This is not a sustainable release strategy if community relations are to be maintained.

I think we need to consider the difference between the lifespan of the game and the lifespan of new product releases. If FFG stopped printing new releases right now and just left the existing stuff for sale indefinitely the game would probably continue for a long time. New releases get lots of attention, but there are plenty of popular games that see few, if any, updates once they are in their "finished" state.

Also, I don't think that the S&V expansion is "buying time", I think it was done because it was something that should have been done. A lot of people like ships/characters that don't fit very well in the main factions, and S&V gives FFG an opportunity to include them. And I think it would have been a good idea to do it this way even if the design space was infinite and running out of new product options was never going to be a concern.

New releases are not necessary for game to continue

Yes, people would still play the game if releases stopped tomorrow. But how long? And how rich an experience would it be? New releases bring a sense of enthusiasm and freshness to a game that is hard to replicate. The game would survive without releases but I think it would be less interesting as time went on, and this could turn people off and end up 'killing' the game. And what would we do without "wave X" speculation threads???

Also, I agree with almost everything you say about S&V; I just think it has the added bonus of putting more time on the clock. I hope I didn't give the impression that I was pouting about S&V - the opposite is true.

As far as I can tell, we have at least 10-15 years left in the game before they run out of ships. I left for a vacation last week and created a list of all the ships which would a) fit in the scale and b) look halfway decent (note: my sense of aesthetic isn't the same as yours, so this part is purely subjective). The results are:

Edit from BG: list removed for brevity

That's 86 ships that look decent and have graphical representation, if you take out the ones that are slated for Wave 6. There are at least two dozen others that have no pictures associated with them which would probably be a lot of fun to fly, and there are others which I'd like but which would likely not be more than humor pieces (personally I'd love to put a Squib Momship on the table, just so I can say "momship" XD ).

If we round up to 90 and divide by 4, then we get 22.5, which we can round down to 22 to account for the Scyk, StarViper and Aggressor. If they do two a year, then they have enough material for 12 years, more if they use other ships and vehicles that I didn't mention.

So I'm not worried at all. You others might be, if you hate some or all of the designs I listed, but hey, I said *I'm* not worried.

There are enough usable ships in the EU for years to come

This is a really impressive list, but I actually disagree with your conclusion. There's a few problems. Focusing on rebels, for whom the lack of ships is most acute, I can only find a few ships on this list that I think would do well in the game. In order for FFG to invest in a new model, they need to be reasonably sure it is going to sell. Here's what I am guessing FFG's criteria for ships is:

Ships should be:

Recognizable by a significant group of players as a ship belonging to that faction

Significantly different gameplay from existing ships in the faction

Visually striking and unique

Strength in one of these elements could override weakness in another; a good example of this is the TIE Phantom. It wasn't as recognizable as many other ships, but it is visually striking and more importantly brings a unique game mechanic to XWM.

Many ships on your list don't meet these criteria. The I-7 Howlrunner is one example. It does show up in the EU with some frequency, so some fans of the EU will recognize it, but it will be alien to anyone who has not read EU extensively. It has similar characteristics to TIE Fighters, with the only distinction of note being the inclusion of shields, so it is not significantly different from the TIE. And maybe most damning of all, it doesn't look Imperial. To most of us, an imperial fighter has solar panels (silly as they are) and a ball cockpit.

The same goes for too many ships on this list, especially where the Rebels are concerned. Too many of their potential ships are obscure, and similar to existing ships. Design space limitations still apply. Visual aesthetics vary wildly from person to person. FFG could release a lot of ships from this list (especially for Imperials and S&V), but I think it gets progressively more risky for them to do so.

There is also the chance that FFG can do an add on expansion in the vein of ground units.

Adding in AT-ATs and AT-STs will make lots of people happy. Keep the stuff in scale, unpainted squad units of stormtroopers in scale, rebel speeders, bespin cloud cars, etc. Whole new dimension.

Call it X-wing enter the atmosphere.