Folks,

Just wanted to get a sanity check here. This thing is supposed to to 5 Stun Damage, right? Used against a normal person, I can imagine that would put them down pretty quickly. But used against any PC who is wearing any armor, that’s not likely to do much — you’d have to get a lot of successes to really hurt them.

So, how is this thing "Able to produce an electrical arc powerful enough to tame a krayt dragon"? If it’s not really going to hurt a PC very much, how on ${INSERT_FAVORITE_PLANET} is it going to do enough damage to make a Krayt Dragon even notice that it has been hit?!?

Okay, so it’s Concussive 1, so if it hits then the target will be "Concussed" and effectively unable to do much of anything useful for one round, after which you could hit them again. So, over time, you could wear them down.

Am I missing something here? Does this Stun Damage somehow bypass Soak?

The only thing I can imagine is that this is a mistype, that it's not "Stun Damage" (which can be absorbed by soak), but Stun [Active] (which cannot).

No, you are reading it correctly. I'd take that fluff text a little more figurative than literal. Also, it says TAME, not knock unconcious. You can imagine the thing can still cause pain. I'm not sure I'd have a bee sting cause wound damage, but if you can do it on demand, you can probably train a person to react in any way you like. Also, consider that stun attacks can probably be attempted strategically, after a target has voluntarily suffered some strain already to reduce to them to the point where they are vulnerable to a single stun attack. If your PCs are refusing to suffer strain, they might not fully understand the use of their talents.

Also, consider that someone with 3 brawn and 2 melee (which is more or less where you should be as a rival NPC if this is your main weapon) is rolling 2 purples against 2 yellows and a green. That's likely to generate either enough advantage to crit on a hit, or enough success to do 7 damage ish. If the target is unarmored, their soak should only be 2-3 for the most part, and armored characters rightfully should reduce their vulnerability to stun damage.

Also, consider that someone with 3 brawn and 2 melee (which is more or less where you should be as a rival NPC if this is your main weapon) is rolling 2 purples against 2 yellows and a green. That's likely to generate either enough advantage to crit on a hit, or enough success to do 7 damage ish. If the target is unarmored, their soak should only be 2-3 for the most part, and armored characters rightfully should reduce their vulnerability to stun damage.

I was thinking about the case of a Wookiee who has 5 Brawn and 5 Melee with 5 Soak and 10 ST, up against another virtually identical Wookiee. So, they’ll each Soak the base 5 damage of the weapon, leaving only the damage caused by the [success] generated by their rolls.

If they’re up against the standard Average Melee check, that’s five yellow against two purple, and the handy-dandy "Edge of the Empire Dice Probability Calculator" by Nik Aleliunas tells us the following regarding the probability of getting at least five [success]:

$ ruby dicecalculator.rb -D:PPPPPDD -T:SSSSS

++++RESULTS for Dice Pool: PPPPPDD++++

Total Chance of Success: 92.69%

Total Chance of Advantage: 75.1%

Total Chance of Threat: 10.78%

Total Chance of Failure Symbol: 2.28%

Total Chance of Reaching Target (SSSSS): 23.46%

Total Triumph Chance: 35.28%

+++++++++++++++

That’s less than a 25% chance of getting enough damage to take out the opponent with two shots. Three shots would only require four [success], with less than a 45% chance of managing to do that on each of the three rolls.

If this weapon was +5 on damage, I could see it achieving what was described in the text — especially if it has a Weighted Head thus giving it the Concussive ability, and the stun damage resulting from both concussion as well as the electric shock. Even if it was just +4 or even just +3, I could see the description as given.

But only Five damage regardless of your Brawn? That seems very … low … to me.

Also, consider that someone with 3 brawn and 2 melee (which is more or less where you should be as a rival NPC if this is your main weapon) is rolling 2 purples against 2 yellows and a green. That's likely to generate either enough advantage to crit on a hit, or enough success to do 7 damage ish. If the target is unarmored, their soak should only be 2-3 for the most part, and armored characters rightfully should reduce their vulnerability to stun damage.

That person with 3 Brawn already has 3 inherent soak. It wouldn't take much for them to get to the point where they resisted the base damage of the Thundershock, meaning only extra successes would generate any strain at all.

Double-post!

Also, consider that someone with 3 brawn and 2 melee (which is more or less where you should be as a rival NPC if this is your main weapon) is rolling 2 purples against 2 yellows and a green. That's likely to generate either enough advantage to crit on a hit, or enough success to do 7 damage ish. If the target is unarmored, their soak should only be 2-3 for the most part, and armored characters rightfully should reduce their vulnerability to stun damage.

I was thinking about the case of a Wookiee who has 5 Brawn and 5 Melee with 5 Soak and 10 ST, up against another virtually identical Wookiee. So, they’ll each Soak the base 5 damage of the weapon, leaving only the damage caused by the [success] generated by their rolls.

If they’re up against the standard Average Melee check, that’s five yellow against two purple, and the handy-dandy "Edge of the Empire Dice Probability Calculator" by Nik Aleliunas tells us the following regarding the probability of getting at least five [success]:

$ ruby dicecalculator.rb -D:PPPPPDD -T:SSSSS

++++RESULTS for Dice Pool: PPPPPDD++++

Total Chance of Success: 92.69%

Total Chance of Advantage: 75.1%

Total Chance of Threat: 10.78%

Total Chance of Failure Symbol: 2.28%

Total Chance of Reaching Target (SSSSS): 23.46%

Total Triumph Chance: 35.28%

+++++++++++++++

That’s less than a 25% chance of getting enough damage to take out the opponent with two shots. Three shots would only require four [success], with less than a 45% chance of managing to do that on each of the three rolls.

If this weapon was +5 on damage, I could see it achieving what was described in the text — especially if it has a Weighted Head thus giving it the Concussive ability, and the stun damage resulting from both concussion as well as the electric shock. Even if it was just +4 or even just +3, I could see the description as given.

But only Five damage regardless of your Brawn? That seems very … low … to me.

To be fair a 5 brawl wookie should be difficult to knock unconscious.

Would it being +5 (or +3) to brawl make it better? Perhaps, but remember, this is for colonist characters.

These characters are not liable to have a massive strength and are more liekly to be balanced with strength, presence, will and cunning.

As such, a flat 5 means that even with a lower brawl these characters are doing more damage than they would with a brawl +1 or +2 weapon and in some cases a brawl +3 if they haven't increased their brawl at all.

It allows weaker characters to contribute to combat, which should be what the colonist book is about.

Not a big weapon for your marauder 5 brawl wookie, but a 'cleverer' weapon that lets someone get around their physical limitations.

And ther eis the whole big brawl character having less strain, suffering strain and add a couple of people laying on some stun blasts and this could quickly knock someone out. sepcialy with concussion adding in (giving it an edge over the regular blaster on stun mode)

If it bothers you that much, don't use it. I'm not sure where you got the idea that this weapon should be able to incapacitate a wookiee in two hits. If it helps, think of the description as marketing fluff, rather than a historian's description of the weapon. It's hardly the only weapon whose fluff text wasn't supported by the stats.

As such, a flat 5 means that even with a lower brawl these characters are doing more damage than they would with a brawl +1 or +2 weapon and in some cases a brawl +3 if they haven't increased their brawl at all.

It allows weaker characters to contribute to combat, which should be what the colonist book is about.

Except... a Blaster pistol already does that, at range, and can switch to lethal damage if necessary. And the Heavy Blaster does more damage...

The only advantage is it might be legal to open carry in some areas where carrying a Blaster would be frowned upon.

As such, a flat 5 means that even with a lower brawl these characters are doing more damage than they would with a brawl +1 or +2 weapon and in some cases a brawl +3 if they haven't increased their brawl at all.

It allows weaker characters to contribute to combat, which should be what the colonist book is about.

Except... a Blaster pistol already does that, at range, and can switch to lethal damage if necessary. And the Heavy Blaster does more damage...

The only advantage is it might be legal to open carry in some areas where carrying a Blaster would be frowned upon.

True, from what I cans ee thoughthe stun rifle does have concussive quality to it as well which gives it a slight edge.

BUt one can never under estimate the aesthetic reasons. One person in our group has been wanting to shock prod for sutnning for a while, despite having a blaster with stun!

It is balanced with a rather basic weapon, and a shock prod is at the end of the day a basic weapon (nowadays farmers use it against cows) so it shouldn't be comparing to a rifle of upper end pistol. being comparable with a blaster pistol makes sense.

Jury Rig it to have Concussive trip on one Advantage. Slap Superior on it. You could keep a target locked up indefinitely.

I wouldn't discount the "legal carry" argument. But beyond that, I don't think it *needs* to be more effective than another weapon. There's a reason why most people carry blasters into combat, even if the goal is to stun. I'd imagine these things are to repel wildlife and to keep a herd in line, not actually capture Stormtroopers.

True, from what I cans ee thoughthe stun rifle does have concussive quality to it as well which gives it a slight edge.

Does the Stun Baton have Concussion as a base quality? Or does it need to be Modded to get it?

If it's a base quality, the "Concussion" aspect could be narrated as "pain" from the shock. That wold fit with the fluff about it "hurting Krayt Dragons".

As such, a flat 5 means that even with a lower brawl these characters are doing more damage than they would with a brawl +1 or +2 weapon and in some cases a brawl +3 if they haven't increased their brawl at all.

The only way a flat five points would be better than +3 would be if they had only 1 Brawn. But if they’ve only got 1 Brawn, then they’re unlikely to be carrying such a big heavy shock prod. So, on that front it doesn’t seem to be a win for most Colonists.

If it was a flat six or seven points instead of just five, then I could see that point as being valid.

It allows weaker characters to contribute to combat, which should be what the colonist book is about.

Not a big weapon for your marauder 5 brawl wookie, but a 'cleverer' weapon that lets someone get around their physical limitations.

I’m not at all opposed to this idea, but I don’t think that this particular weapon does as well in this regard as I think it should. At least, not as written — a Force Pike would be a better choice for most people, and would let them have a choice of whether they do killing damage or only stun damage.

Jury Rig it to have Concussive trip on one Advantage. Slap Superior on it. You could keep a target locked up indefinitely.

I was definitely thinking about that kind of thing, but that would still require that you remain in constant engagement with that target, so that you can keep concussing them from one round to the next.

You’d be better off with a Force Pike with the Weighted Head and Superior attachments, plus the same Jury Rig. Same effect with regards to concussing the target from one round to the next, but you do more damage, you get Pierce 2, and you have the option of doing either stun or killing damage.

On top of that, the Thunderbolt is Rarity 6, while the Force Pike is only Rarity 4.

If it bothers you that much, don't use it.

I’m not going to use it, at least not as written.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that this weapon should be able to incapacitate a wookiee in two hits.

A Wookiee is nowhere near as strong or as tough as a Krayt Dragon, so if a weapon can legitimately be said to "tame a Krayt Dragon", then IMO it should be able to take out a Wookiee in just one or two shots. And this weapon can’t do that.

If it helps, think of the description as marketing fluff, rather than a historian's description of the weapon. It's hardly the only weapon whose fluff text wasn't supported by the stats.

This seems to me like a particularly egregious example, which is why I started this thread.

It is balanced with a rather basic weapon, and a shock prod is at the end of the day a basic weapon (nowadays farmers use it against cows) so it shouldn't be comparing to a rifle of upper end pistol. being comparable with a blaster pistol makes sense.

In that case, it should be priced like a Holdout Blaster (~200 Credits instead of 875 Credits), and it should have the Rarity appropriate to a Holdout Blaster (4 instead of 6).

In fact, since it’s not a ranged weapon, it should probably be priced lower than a Holdout Blaster, and with lower Rarity. Make it 100~150 Credits and Rarity 3, and change the description to be roughly equivalent to a modern cattle prod, and I wouldn’t have given it a second thought.

But make it way overpriced, overhyped description, and listed as being considerably more rare than a Holdout Blaster, and you’re going to get my attention — albeit not in the way that the designers probably wanted.

In that case, it should be priced like a Holdout Blaster (~200 Credits instead of 875 Credits), and it should have the Rarity appropriate to a Holdout Blaster (4 instead of 6).

Sounds like a Star Wars equivalent to a Taser. It hurts like hell to get hit by one without some type of protection (high on drugs or alchohol or such), yet it won't knock you out, even after repeated hits of it. But it makes you pretty much incapacitated while getting hit with it.

So, nothing seems wrong with that description, just a difference in expectation for the mechanics.

Wow. It seems people equate taming to knocking unconcious, and forget that most living organisms don't enjoy pain.

Think of this weapon as a lion tamers whip. Can the whip kill the lion? Eventually, sure. However the lion has been conditioned to fear it - whether the sound or through actual beatings.

Read up on this:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

It might help with understanding the text of 'tame a krayt dragon'

The other issue seems to stem from a literal interpretation of everything. As an exercise try not to think of things as a person reading the stats in a book and how they interact with a heroic character. Think of how the average in universe person would view this, or react to being hit by it.

Living creatures don't like pain and most will not fight to the death if given the chance to avoid death. The average sapient will be taken down by this weapon - stats are not needed. A hero (player character or opponents) will not.

How often do gms have their mooks surrender after being shot? How often do animals fight to the death rather than flee? I'm betting the answer is almost never for most people.

It seems to me that the shock prod is begging for a player to mod the crap out of it. 2P51 is correct. It's a weapon for someone to munchkinize on a techie type. It's not for a PC to use as is.

I'd like to see a "Shock Capacitor" mod that allows characters to up the stun damage on a weapon.

I don't think this is a weapon PCs were ever intended to use against a BBEG. It's one they use to teach some punks a lesson, or get the krayt dragon to go bother some other town.

Where FFG messed up is on the encumbrance rules. It's hard for many PCs to have a secondary or tertiary weapon, which is where the shock prod fits in.

As an aside, why do folks think that a weighted head works on the force pike? Weighted head and pike don't seem to fit together to me. A pike with a heavy end would be worse then useless. Maybe on the base?

It seems to me that the shock prod is begging for a player to mod the crap out of it. 2P51 is correct. It's a weapon for someone to munchkinize on a techie type. It's not for a PC to use as is.

As an aside, why do folks think that a weighted head works on the force pike? Weighted head and pike don't seem to fit together to me. A pike with a heavy end would be worse then useless. Maybe on the base?

It's not all about the narrative in this case, because the force pike is not a blunt weapon and should be ineligible for the weighted head.

Nothing in EotE is listed as "bludgeoning". So my group tossed out such nonsense.

We just limited the amount of silliness if we think someone is "going to far" (in this case someone trying to pack Serrated, Mono-Molecular, Weighted Head, and Superior on a Vibro-axe).

Though honestly... if someone picked up the Tinkerer talents for this sort of thing... I'd be hard-pressed to say no. It's not like they couldn't go nuts with something else.

I also let my wife add the Weighted Head to her character's Force Pike.

At first I thought it wouldn't be applicable because I thought it was a stabby weapon, but reading the description it does seem like it uses blunt force (from vibrating fast), so I allowed it.