Does it seem like it to everyone else that in order to deal with power creep and some munchkinlike items classes and overlord issues that we need an official nerf-pack to take off a couple of the rough edges?

No amount of play testing before releasing the products will catch many of the issues we have found over the course of the game. There simply are never enough play testers and time to realize all of the consequences of the design choices that are made. On the other hand many of us like a game that is close to competitive.

Do we need occasional nerf packs with to level set?

With FFG, we're not talking about "there wasn't enough playtesting to find out that this one item in the act 2 deck combos with a specific pair of skills in one class plus support from a second class equals an uberweapon."

FFG's lack of playtesting is more like "the basic skill for this class gives the entire group a free stand-up every turn, thus totally eliminating all harm from being knocked down." Don't make excuses for them. If they don't have enough resources to do basic copyediting, maybe they shouldn't make games - or at least make them at a much lower price point.

Just drop the bard

Good nerf for that power would be if it only targeted characters who were still standing perhaps.

Just drop the bard

Good nerf for that power would be if it only targeted characters who were still standing perhaps.

It's not like there are no consequences either, they all have their stamina maxed out and come back with only 1 hit point, and you get overlord cards or threat when they get knocked out.

And it's not like knocking out the heroes is the only way (or even the best way) to win every quest either.

Just drop the bard

Good nerf for that power would be if it only targeted characters who were still standing perhaps.

It's not like there are no consequences either, they all have their stamina maxed out and come back with only 1 hit point, and you get overlord cards or threat when they get knocked out.

And it's not like knocking out the heroes is the only way (or even the best way) to win every quest either.

^- This +1,000,000

You guys do understand that if there are no negative consequences to being knocked down, coming back with 1 hp isn't a problem you have to care about, right?

Neither is the OL drawing cards, most of which are geared towards... helping knock players down.

I personally think an Descent 2.1 update pack would be kinda cool

You guys do understand that if there are no negative consequences to being knocked down, coming back with 1 hp isn't a problem you have to care about, right?

Neither is the OL drawing cards, most of which are geared towards... helping knock players down.

Knocking a hero down probably won't make or break an encounter. However, if you can keep a heroes in a cycle of being knocked down and standing up/revived (which is easiest when they recover little when they get up) you:

- fill your hand with OL cards (and depending on your expansion get a threat or two)

-cause the heroes to be wasting actions to revive their friend, which is as good as stunning them or

-effectively remove one hero from the party, giving your monster groups an advantage across the board

All of those things help you accomplish quest objectives more easily, and at the very least make accomplishing objectives more difficult for the heroes. This is why knocking down all the heroes at once is so helpful- you're depriving them of an entire round of turns, and none of them will have actions to spare to help the others.

You guys do understand that if there are no negative consequences to being knocked down, coming back with 1 hp isn't a problem you have to care about, right?

Neither is the OL drawing cards, most of which are geared towards... helping knock players down.

Knocking a hero down probably won't make or break an encounter. However, if you can keep a heroes in a cycle of being knocked down and standing up/revived (which is easiest when they recover little when they get up) you:

- fill your hand with OL cards (and depending on your expansion get a threat or two)

-cause the heroes to be wasting actions to revive their friend, which is as good as stunning them or

-effectively remove one hero from the party, giving your monster groups an advantage across the board

All of those things help you accomplish quest objectives more easily, and at the very least make accomplishing objectives more difficult for the heroes. This is why knocking down all the heroes at once is so helpful- you're depriving them of an entire round of turns, and none of them will have actions to spare to help the others.

Even if they don't lose actions to the knock down because you somehow kill everyone but the bard and the bard gets them up with his song passively, he's gotta babysit them and they have no fatigue at all for anything, and have only 1 hp, meaning knocking them all down again is trivial. Sure they can rest, only to be knocked down again.

Knocking people out in this game has never been the optimal tactic anyway, unless the party is particularly squishy.

Knocking people out in this game has never been the optimal tactic anyway, unless the party is particularly squishy.

Which opens the game right up to more than a punch out and makes it more enjoyable than a scaled down wargame.

Ok so the consensus is that the Bard situation is manageable it seems and does not need an official nerf.

What else?

Id like an updated game manual to replace the first. One thats actually clear, contains all the rules and is playtested lol

The consensus among people who haven't played in the situation and don't seem (from their own statements) to understand it is that it doesn't need a nerf. Good enough for me :-)

BentoSan - if they were going to playtest an UPDATED manual they'd have playtested the original in the first place :-) That's not really FFG's style - they'll just put out a 3rd edition that makes different (but just as bad) mistakes so they can sell the same stuff all over again.

The consensus among people who haven't played in the situation and don't seem (from their own statements) to understand it is that it doesn't need a nerf. Good enough for me :-)

BentoSan - if they were going to playtest an UPDATED manual they'd have playtested the original in the first place :-) That's not really FFG's style - they'll just put out a 3rd edition that makes different (but just as bad) mistakes so they can sell the same stuff all over again.

You know, you don't need to make assumptions about other people or insult other people simply because they disagree with you.

@amoshias ...

I am retired. This means I have no life. It also means I, and my friends, have a lot of time on our hands. We game virtually every day for more than 12+ hours a day, splitting that time between Descent first edition, Second Edition, Catan, and X-Wing. It is virtually all I do. I can assure you that I have played this game many, many, many times.

I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about, and fully realize the impact of the opinions I am expressing. If you happen to disagree with them, that is certainly your right. But then, I would expect you to make a counter argument, with facts to back you up, rather than to insult me by implying that I have no idea what I am talking about.

@amoshias ...

I am retired. This means I have no life. It also means I, and my friends, have a lot of time on our hands. We game virtually every day for more than 12+ hours a day, splitting that time between Descent first edition, Second Edition, Catan, and X-Wing. It is virtually all I do. I can assure you that I have played this game many, many, many times.

I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about, and fully realize the impact of the opinions I am expressing. If you happen to disagree with them, that is certainly your right. But then, I would expect you to make a counter argument, with facts to back you up, rather than to insult me by implying that I have no idea what I am talking about.

Asking people on the internet to formulate an actual argument that follows the rules of logic and rhetoric?

Inconceivable!

I know ... sorry ... lost my head for a moment ... be back once I find it ...

An "Official Nerf Pack" should include buffs to the weakest classes to help them realize their potential. There are several classes (Stalker, Conjurer, etc.) that explore really cool ideas but don't execute them very well, and I'd like to see them reworked to be more useful.

Honestly, I'd want an Official Errata Pack that contains new copies of all the cards whose text has been changed (Grisban, Unholy Ritual, Reinforce, etc). I played a game with some new players yesterday, and they were all baffled and frustrated when I told them that several things don't actually work as described on the cards.

An "Official Nerf Pack" should include buffs to the weakest classes to help them realize their potential. There are several classes (Stalker, Conjurer, etc.) that explore really cool ideas but don't execute them very well, and I'd like to see them reworked to be more useful.

Honestly, I'd want an Official Errata Pack that contains new copies of all the cards whose text has been changed (Grisban, Unholy Ritual, Reinforce, etc). I played a game with some new players yesterday, and they were all baffled and frustrated when I told them that several things don't actually work as described on the cards.

This is the one thing in D2e that I (as OL) and my heroes struggle with. We spend much time reading and re-reading rules and FAQs to make sure that we are playing any given encounter, quest, hero, ability, etc. correctly. It takes some of the fun out of the game.

It would be really nice if there was a way to acquire updated cards that reflected all of the FAQ rules. In addition, it would nice to be able to get updated rules and/or quest guides for the same reason.

Now, I know that I could probably try and cobble something together (such as overlaying cards with updated text, etc.), but it just isn't the same thing. At the same time, I don't want anyone to be forced to acquire these updates (such as if they were included in a re-release of the game, or a new expansion).

I guess it would have to be something where FFG offered a mini-card pack of all corrections to date (say through a given date and/or expansion). Then, it would be up to us as players as to whether or not we would find it valuable enough to spend money on.

I actually spent several weeks this summer trying to create a combined PDF of all manuals, quests, and FAQs to date. It was a very frustrating experience, as I was trying to make its production values similar to what FFG put out; now, I may just go for pure text and bag all of the graphics. That may make it easier. Only time and effort will tell ...

The "new quest guide" that has been mentioned here and there is a whole updated printing that does indeed contain new OL cards, hero sheets, etc that are updated to fit the (not quite most recent) FAQ.

An "Official Nerf Pack" should include buffs to the weakest classes to help them realize their potential. There are several classes (Stalker, Conjurer, etc.) that explore really cool ideas but don't execute them very well, and I'd like to see them reworked to be more useful.

Honestly, I'd want an Official Errata Pack that contains new copies of all the cards whose text has been changed (Grisban, Unholy Ritual, Reinforce, etc). I played a game with some new players yesterday, and they were all baffled and frustrated when I told them that several things don't actually work as described on the cards.

Also, everyone who says the Conjurer is weak- have you played the Conjurer? I took one (Shiver) into a 2 hero party (with a Champion Reynhart) expert epic play level, and it was really a good time- the class has a lot to offer, and can be a huge thorn in the side of many a monster group. In a full party as a supportive class, I think it really shines. It's also really fun to give image tokens valor that they can spend.

The real problem of the conjurer is in act 2. Since no cards offers a boost of defense (at least another grey die), all images will be destroyed easily. And an Image "hit", it means 1 fatigue and 1 damage on it.

There's something wrong on this class

But it's not the only one. The base card of the bezerker is outdated now, the necromancer needs a real boost, etc ...

The real problem of the conjurer is in act 2. Since no cards offers a boost of defense (at least another grey die), all images will be destroyed easily. And an Image "hit", it means 1 fatigue and 1 damage on it.

There's something wrong on this class

But it's not the only one. The base card of the bezerker is outdated now, the necromancer needs a real boost, etc ...

Sure, but I didn't see "keeping image tokens alive" as a goal. Each one can force (or tempt) the OL into using an action to destroy it. If you use them as tools to block a hallway, you're significantly slowing the OL down for some fatigue and the cost of a little health- and unlike the geomancer's stones, it doesn't cost an action to bring them in.

But remember- especially in Act 2- if you're using the Image tokens to keep fire off of you- it may absorb an attack of 11 damage, Pierce 3, and you only take 1 damage, 1 fatigue. That's a significant benefit, not a weakness.

The real problem of the conjurer is in act 2. Since no cards offers a boost of defense (at least another grey die), all images will be destroyed easily. And an Image "hit", it means 1 fatigue and 1 damage on it.

There's something wrong on this class

But it's not the only one. The base card of the bezerker is outdated now, the necromancer needs a real boost, etc ...

Sure, but I didn't see "keeping image tokens alive" as a goal. Each one can force (or tempt) the OL into using an action to destroy it. If you use them as tools to block a hallway, you're significantly slowing the OL down for some fatigue and the cost of a little health- and unlike the geomancer's stones, it doesn't cost an action to bring them in.

But remember- especially in Act 2- if you're using the Image tokens to keep fire off of you- it may absorb an attack of 11 damage, Pierce 3, and you only take 1 damage, 1 fatigue. That's a significant benefit, not a weakness.

Next time, try High Mage Quellen as the conjurer. All that stamina.....

Next time, try High Mage Quellen as the conjurer. All that stamina.....

He makes one hell of a geomancer too.

Next time, try High Mage Quellen as the conjurer. All that stamina.....

He makes one hell of a geomancer too.

Yes, but I wanted to see how Shiver's heroic ability would do when combined with "Illusory Path"- +2 MP for monsters to enter any space adjacent to both me and a token! It was beautiful around the water spaces- goblin archers could only move 1 or 2 spaces.