Okay, my GM just let me get away with this, but I have to know if anyone else has tried this.

When you're trying to get a Greater Daemon into a Weapon to take advantage of their stupidly high infamy and WP, what better way to soften them up than to social combat them!

Of course, engaging a Greater Daemon in social combat is one of the most suicidal things you can do. I survived thanks to some gifts from Slaanesh...and a lot of infamy points...and two really unlucky 95s rolled by my GM...

But it still worked!

First, social combat rules, as far as I see, are not ideal, and you would generally be better off roleplaying the conflict rather than roll playing using given rules.

Second, even the best demagogue would be hard-pressed to deal with entity which couldn't care less about social stances in mortal realm. You would need extensive knowledge of warp, daemons and particular god this demon is aligned to.

In general, when forging daemon weapons your chances depend more on the work you did before attempting to summon and bind a daemon - do you know its name, is ritual taking place in the right place at the right time, are there enough sacrifices and so on.

I've seen a bloodletter eating unlucky summoner's face in my games. But I also witnessed improvised weapon (chair leg with nails) bound with the essence of greater daemon. It's really about how much time you spend preparing for the ritual.

. It's really about how much time you spend preparing for the ritual.

Oh I dunno, Chaplain, I kind of like the idea of engaging in a duel of wits with a being of the beyond. They may not care much what we think, but Daemons are made from our own thoughts and emotions, so they do share some of the same thought processes. I remember that story where a Keeper or some Daemon Prince tried to convince Kharn the Betrayer to 'betray' Khorne (sorry, I had to say it) and join Slaanesh. He/she might've done it to, until it screwed up and said the wrong thing when it thought it had the advantage. If nothing else, they share our emotions, which means it's possible to manipulate them. (I wouldn't try this on anything Tzeentch, though)

I've never gotten to actually try the social combat rules, so maybe role playing it would be better, but either method is viable in my book. I mean, all that prep works you were talking about? Fluff-wise that's all important too, but it's also just another mechanic in the game that adds bonuses to the rolls you make when binding it. So either way you're mixing fluff with crunch when you make that weapon. Which is how RPGS have always worked... So, yeah, that's my ten cents.

I figure that social combat with a daemon would be like debating with a walking, talking, sentient concept.

Possible, but only if you play a LOT of Planescape.

Which I have!

Possible, but only if you play a LOT of Planescape.

Yeah

I love the idea of wearing the target down with role playing rather than just roll playing.

What was the conversation you used?

I also would say it's possible, but always bear in mind that Daemons think differently to humans. No matter how human they may appear.

I love the idea of wearing the target down with role playing rather than just roll playing.

What was the conversation you used?

Well, it was a Slaaneshi Daemon. So, I played off the idea that the experience of being a weapon is QUITE unique!

Ahh, I was thinking you brow beat it by insulting it as a failure, or schmoozing it as being divine. and then bam! hit it with the entrapment.

Yeah, but I wanted it to still want to be IN the weapon once its WP and Infamy came back.

Also, I personally have used the social combat rules and find them to really encourage roleplaying (not just roll playing).

For one thing, in the early campaign, when you have to wheedle and whisper and trick and canoodle your way into social good graces...it feels really satisfying to know that the main reason you won is because your roleplaying (the +20 and +30 bonuses) and your stats (high fellowship and the right feats) work together well.

...and then, in the late campaign, when you can dump 80 infamy into a singe casual remark and bring people to their knees?

Oh, oh, it is glorious.

I figure that social combat with a daemon would be like debating with a walking, talking, sentient concept.

Possible, but only if you play a LOT of Planescape.

Which I have!

They stay out of the astropath quarters since then.

As written, you really just need to pass that Hellish opposed WP test.

If I may, we have some fluff examples of debating daemon/entity to death. Most famous would would be Justicar Alaric of Grey Knights, who did it at least twice. Once, convincing one rather nasty Abominable Intelligence that it is daemon (so after that, he could fight it, daemonhunter way), and then after some brutal pummeling with lies, halftruths and truths, after being granted one with, asking: " I wish for a world where your kind cannot exist ." Shame they are not writing novels like that today *shakes walking stick in the air* Also, I think majority conversations with Cherubael in Eisenhorn are worth a Social Combat encounter.

So I guess, yeah, it should be possible. Not to substitute for roleplaying, but good addition,

I like Social Combat as a whole, but I will houserule sometimes that if you didn't give a convincing case, then you simply lose that round. I had this when a player was making utterly clueless attempts to appeal to a lesser member of the Adeptus Arbites by attempting to offer things that didn't interest her, and yet he was still beating her by miles because he had maxed out Charm, had the Mark of Slaanesh and the Hermaphrodite bonus. This really annoyed me that he could get away with roleplaying so poorly despite help from his team-mates, and yet the dice say he did a great job with a margin for error on dice rolls that the NPC couldn't even hope to compete with even if she rolled flawlessly.

I know not every encounter will go this way, but when it does, it annoys me.

The hardest thing to role play is some one more charming than you. So in games where someone rolls great but speaks terribly, my groups tend to either let the person try again or someone else (sometimes even the gm) will restate what they said to be closer to the roll.

I like Social Combat as a whole, but I will houserule sometimes that if you didn't give a convincing case, then you simply lose that round. I had this when a player was making utterly clueless attempts to appeal to a lesser member of the Adeptus Arbites by attempting to offer things that didn't interest her, and yet he was still beating her by miles because he had maxed out Charm, had the Mark of Slaanesh and the Hermaphrodite bonus. This really annoyed me that he could get away with roleplaying so poorly despite help from his team-mates, and yet the dice say he did a great job with a margin for error on dice rolls that the NPC couldn't even hope to compete with even if she rolled flawlessly.

I know not every encounter will go this way, but when it does, it annoys me.

To be fair, there are examples of this in 40k lore, where someone is utterly convinced due to the beguiling nature of Chaos...and only after the influence fades (usually due to a nearby plot convenient Null) do they blink and go, "...wait a second, what!?"

That's how I would play such things - it might actually be kind of amusing to yank the rug out from under the character relying overmuch on unnatural successes brought about by their warp powers...

The problem was that the player wasn't even making much effort to be convincing. He has had a couple of years to develop his character, and he had the out-of-character advice of everybody who was wincing painfully at his failures. He had a tendency to write characters as a stat block and then attempt to justify the ludicrous power level afterwards.

Oh, well, that's him being a tosser, then.

Okay, my GM just let me get away with this, but I have to know if anyone else has tried this.

When you're trying to get a Greater Daemon into a Weapon to take advantage of their stupidly high infamy and WP, what better way to soften them up than to social combat them!

Of course, engaging a Greater Daemon in social combat is one of the most suicidal things you can do. I survived thanks to some gifts from Slaanesh...and a lot of infamy points...and two really unlucky 95s rolled by my GM...

But it still worked!

Yes nothing like smooth talking a daemonette to hop in your spear.