The GW comparison gets so tiresome. OF COURSE GW games are outrageously priced. Everyone knows that. But it's not an either/or choice. This is the mid-range cost game company. There are others that are far cheaper. Some of those produce equally strong products in terms of quality, and have components that provide "recyclable game funds." LCGs for all their praise lack that option.

What I'm saying is if you are upset about needing 3 cores, wait six months. People will dump their cards for a loss on ebay and you can get that third core on the cheap.

I play Lord of the Rings and had 2 core sets for the longest time. I did eventually get a third core, but as more packs and expansions come out, I find myself using fewer and fewer of the original cards. So I will get a second core (kicking myself for not buying a second one at GC) and then wait to see what happens with the first few expansions.

This is a great game, on the level of X-Wing or LotR. Not sure how I'm going to swing a third monthly expense for a game but I've got some time to figure it out.

Also, several online sites are selling the game for around $25-30 so you can get 3 for under $100. Buy 1 a month if that is too much to do in a single purchase.

Exactly, this is MUCH cheaper hobby.

I think I need to explain myself. I am not going to purchase this game because I like card games or the LCG format. I am going to buy this game because I love the 40K genre and I like to play games with my friends within this setting. So I do not think that comparing the card game to the miniature game is apples and oranges. It's 40K...and this card game is probably the cheapest way to access the 40K genre. I, like many others, have been priced out by G.W...I am very happy that I have an alternative. The alternative is shaping up to be a VERY cool card game.

That's all I am saying.

Have we been here before? I feel like we've been here before.

This is what I'm doing: Me and about 6 people from my FLGS are getting the game. No one else is interested in Tau, what I'm planning on playing. I'm trading away my DE and Orks for two more sets of Tau. I'm not running more than the number of neutral cards in a single core set (by choice) and I'm not trading away the allies to Tau (SM and Eldar) until I make a decision on them. I may barter for a few more of the ally cards that I want (like Eager Recruit and Exterminatus) but if I can't get my hands on those, I'll buy them from the inevitable people who buy a core set to try and turn it around for money for singles.Yeah, they don't make as much as they would on Magic singles but there's still a few of them out there.

So, I buy a single core set and still get the number of cards I need to play a competitive deck of the type I want while still having extra cards to be flexible with. If you know other people who are interested, then it's about communication. If not, then be smart. I'm sure you can find someone who considers the cards you want extraneous and is willing to sell them for less than the cost of 2 more core sets.

There are7 factions which means each will get a small portion of the card count. You will either have to find a way to divvy up the neutral cards or keep an allied faction

It's 40K...and this card game is probably the cheapest way to access the 40K genre.

Cheapest way would be the Talisman Clone, or Heresy Board Game, or 40K RPG books... all FFG items. There is also a really cool little game called Death Angle.

The thing about a LCG is that it is a continual cost that goes on for years and years and years every month. (assume you buy into that kind of thing) while these other things are self contained boardgames that you just buy and play. End of story. Relic will get a expansion every now and then.. I think there is one out now.

To many to post the RPGs... just look here...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_colecciones.asp?eidc=2

Weirdly, having played both I prefer Relic to Talisman - even though they are just the same game re-skinned, the 40k skin seems to fit better. Maybe it's just because Relic lets me play as an actual Commissar, who knows

Have we been here before? I feel like we've been here before.

This is what I'm doing: Me and about 6 people from my FLGS are getting the game. No one else is interested in Tau, what I'm planning on playing. I'm trading away my DE and Orks for two more sets of Tau. I'm not running more than the number of neutral cards in a single core set (by choice) and I'm not trading away the allies to Tau (SM and Eldar) until I make a decision on them. I may barter for a few more of the ally cards that I want (like Eager Recruit and Exterminatus) but if I can't get my hands on those, I'll buy them from the inevitable people who buy a core set to try and turn it around for money for singles.Yeah, they don't make as much as they would on Magic singles but there's still a few of them out there.

So, I buy a single core set and still get the number of cards I need to play a competitive deck of the type I want while still having extra cards to be flexible with. If you know other people who are interested, then it's about communication. If not, then be smart. I'm sure you can find someone who considers the cards you want extraneous and is willing to sell them for less than the cost of 2 more core sets.

from what I've seen you will not have enough cards from one faction to play the game piteously.

There are7 factions which means each will get a small portion of the card count. You will either have to find a way to divvy up the neutral cards or keep an allied faction

So, by trading cards to have 3x full sets of Tau plus keeping his Allies (and possibly trading for more) he won't have enough cards to make a decent Tau deck? Care to run that past me again?

As others before me have pointed out, an LCG is not the same as a boxed board game. Sure, you can treat it as one (which is what I'll be doing myself until I can afford to expand it, as currently Netrunner is and will remain my main game), but that's not what the expectation is going in.

To create what YOU consider a 'complete' experience, the game would cost considerably more than it does now. That would affect sales, so FFG won't do it.

To release 'completion packs', to fill out a Core set with the remaining 1x and 2x cards for full playsets also has a cost implication. The plates that the cards are printed from would have to be re-designed for these completion packs (suggesting you can just split existing printings and re-package them belies ignorance of the industrial printing process; if anything that would be even MORE expensive - it's the same reason you get 3x ID cards in Netrunner packs even though you don't need the second 2). They would also have to design, package, and distribute these sets separately.

For that to happen, FFG would need a very good reason to believe that by doing so they would create more profit than by people buying additional Core sets. So you have to have research in place which suggests that the market for these completion sets is great enough not only to offset the costs of producing them, but also to create additional revenue for the company. Knowing that the majority of people who currently buy multi-cores would certainly by completion sets instead if they existed, there would need to be a considerable number of people who WOULD buy them who DON'T currently buy multi-cores, otherwise it makes no financial sense for the company.

I have to say that by this point I wonder why the discussion is even going on still. You've made your point. It's the same point that comes up EVERY TIME an LCG comes out. You're not going to change the opinion of people who are ok with the distribution method, or, more crucially, FFG themselves, and it's pretty clear no-one is going to make you feel any better about it. The reasons why things are the way they are have been stated and re-stated. You don't accept them. Fine. Move on and stop complaining about things that won't change.

So, by trading cards to have 3x full sets of Tau plus keeping his Allies (and possibly trading for more) he won't have enough cards to make a decent Tau deck? Care to run that past me again?

There's no need to be defensive about it.

Expecting to be able to trade away for those exact options is a rather exacting demand. What if two people want to play Tau? What if someone doesn't want to trade their ally cards? What about the neutral cards?

Not really a reasonable or workable expectation for most people.

It also deprives the player of the opportunity to play other decks. What if he gerts bored playing the Tau and wants to try something else? That's the whole point of having a complete playset? It's almost as if that desire is being punished!

What if the Tau turn out to be complete crap?

The fact that this discussion reappears with each new game really ought to tell you something.

There's no need to be defensive about it.

Expecting to be able to trade away for those exact options is a rather exacting demand. What if two people want to play Tau? What if someone doesn't want to trade their ally cards? What about the neutral cards?

Not really a reasonable or workable expectation for most people.

No, but clearly it is for him or he wouldn't be doing it, yet you somehow assumed it wouldn't work out (or I misunderstood your post).

It also deprives the player of the opportunity to play other decks. What if he gerts bored playing the Tau and wants to try something else? That's the whole point of having a complete playset? It's almost as if that desire is being punished!

That's a decision this player will have made in the full knowledge that he hurts his ability to play other factions.

What if the Tau turn out to be complete crap?

Then FFG's designers and playtesters have failed badly. I don't think that's likely to happen however.

I don't believe anyone said it was.

Apologies if it's not come up in this thread; I may be getting conflated with the same topic coming up in other boards.

Yes, what I want. Who else would you like me to speak for?

Not sure what other definition of the word 'complete' there could be than having a full playset.

I do not own 3x Core sets for Netrunner. I have never felt that my game experience was in any way 'incomplete'. I'm able to fully enjoy the game without owning 3x every card; I'm sorry you don't feel able to do the same.

This is ionly correct if you believe there is no other way of doing things.

7 factions in one box is a lot to begin with. Perhaps starting with fewer might have been easier.

Unlikely. Adding extra factions to a game often proves problematic as they lack the support of the established factions. I feel that the method of alliances being used for Necrons and Tyranids combats this somewhat, but we won't know for sure until release.

This is a discussion on a forum; if it's not something you like to talk about then by all means start something that you do like talking about. There's room for everyone and it's rather rude to be told what I can or can't discuss because it offends your sensibilities.

The fact that this discussion reappears with each new game really ought to tell you something.

It tells me three things.

1) There is a very vocal part of the playerbase who feel hard done by.

2) There is an equally vocal part of the playerbase who do not.

3) FFG aren't going to change the way they do things, or they would have done so by now.

The discussion is done to death. The same tired arguments are trotted out again and again; the same points and refutations are made, and the whole thing is an exercise in futility. Granted I'm just as guilty for participating on the other side. For some reason I keep hoping to be able to put the 'debate' to rest, but I guess that's just me being overly optimistic.

You just gotta put up with it.. a lot of peeps on this site are hopeless fanboys and think any comment that is not sucking FFGs big veiny donger is making some kind of personal attack on them. While I completely disagree with your opinion here, this thread and this forum is EXACTLY where discussion of this topic should be.

While you make a lot of good posts, this isn't one of them.

I defend FFGs business practices because I understand the practical reasons for them. Would I prefer that FFG could release 3x copies of all cards in a Core set without inflating their price or damaging their profits? Of course. Sadly that's not realistic. It's in FFGs interests to do what is best for the company, and for the reasons that have been stated (over and over) that means releasing the Core sets the way they do.

FFG will have done the market research and made sales projections based on these, comparing the costs of different distribution methods against the projected sales/profits. They have obviously decided that this is the most effective solution, and yet people from outside the company, who have in all likelihood done zero research and have zero experience in the field (but a massive amount of grievance because they feel they're being wronged) constantly complain and demand that FFG 'fix' their 'broken' model.

And as for this being 'the place to discuss it' - do you have any idea how little presence FFG themselves actually have on their own forum? If you want to take it up with them, I suggest you contact them directly rather than stick a message in this bottle and hope someone takes note.

it isn't about FFG's presence, and it isn't about how often you have seen a thread like this. This is HIS thread and the discussion is fresh and NEW to him. If someone is sick to death of a topic, do not click on it and do not comment. Simple as that. It isn't anyone place to shut down other peoples conversations.

Also for the record it has also got nothing to do with business practices. The thread is about how he is reacting to those practices. As much as someone can "understand" the ideas behind the marketing guys reasoning for w/e, there is the completely valid argument that they could, if they wanted, do it practically any other darn way they wished and have it completely viable.

Also it is true the current system allows for some subtle manipulation of us as customers. FFG's massive use of factions for example. Surfe that is cool.. but have you thought about how they are released to us.

Having 1 or 2 cards per-faction in a cycle pack assures that we need to buy masses of them to get cards. Try going to a deck builder and making a deck with an older game as a test.. then work out exactly what packs you would need to buy to make that deck. You'll find the cards are spread across so many packs.. sometimes needing a pack for practically every card (not in a deluxe or core)

Same can be said for the core set. Many games are released 400+ cards from other companies. FFG could do this if they wanted. The argument that there is a comprehensive 2 player game in the box is bull****. They could just put in the manual a deck list for starter decks and leave the rest for deck building latter.

So yeah, they could do it a different way, in a way that has no effect on the boardgame community that have no experience with card games.

Though for me.. I couldn't care in the least, not a bit. FFGs games are undeniably awesome in every way. From production and art, to support, to design. They make amazingly good games. Games worth paying the cost they ask for, not just worth it.. easily worth it.

It tells me three things.

1) There is a very vocal part of the playerbase who feel hard done by.

2) There is an equally vocal part of the playerbase who do not.

3) FFG aren't going to change the way they do things, or they would have done so by now.

This is dead on. The system works and not just works.. works so well it can support like what.. 7 games? There is no reason at all to change. The vocal few are completely inconsequential. FFG rakes in the cash just fine.

Expecting to be able to trade away for those exact options is a rather exacting demand. What if two people want to play Tau? What if someone doesn't want to trade their ally cards? What about the neutral cards?

Not really a reasonable or workable expectation for most people.

That's why I said that COMMUNICATION is key. Talk to people, find out what they want to play. If they don't want to trade for it, then buy the singles later.

It also deprives the player of the opportunity to play other decks. What if he gerts bored playing the Tau and wants to try something else? That's the whole point of having a complete playset? It's almost as if that desire is being punished!

What if the Tau turn out to be complete crap?

I-,.. what? The very fact that we're talking about this means that this isn't a complete playset. Are you saying that for the price of the starter set you want multiple competitive decks, with multiple copies of cards in them? You realize that in order to do this in any other CCG you would have to buy multiple starter decks (which would run you about 10-12 dollars a piece) and AT LEAST one box of booster cards (which runs you upward of 100 dollars). So you're already talking over 120 dollars at least in another CCG. And you're complaining about not getting that equal value in one box for what, 40 dollars? I don't feel that those are reasonable expectations. I've been TO's for other card games, and played in many more but this is my first LCG. So far I'm happy with what I'm seeing.

This is what I'm doing: Me and about 6 people from my FLGS are getting the game. No one else is interested in Tau, what I'm planning on playing. I'm trading away my DE and Orks for two more sets of Tau. I'm not running more than the number of neutral cards in a single core set (by choice) and I'm not trading away the allies to Tau (SM and Eldar) until I make a decision on them. I may barter for a few more of the ally cards that I want (like Eager Recruit and Exterminatus) but if I can't get my hands on those, I'll buy them from the inevitable people who buy a core set to try and turn it around for money for singles.Yeah, they don't make as much as they would on Magic singles but there's still a few of them out there.

from what I've seen you will not have enough cards from one faction to play the game piteously.

There are7 factions which means each will get a small portion of the card count. You will either have to find a way to divvy up the neutral cards or keep an allied faction

I said I'm not trading the allied factions until I make a decision on them, and I'll barter or buy singles from the allied factions as I want them. Good lord man, it says that in what you quoted of what I wrote. If you so worried about trades, start talking to people about it now.

What I'm hearing is: You don't want to buy more than one core set, you don't want to play with one core set, you don't want to talk to people about trading but you want to have multiple competitive decks. Maybe the best way for you to do this is simply wait until the next major release is out and the price for the core set falls on ebay. That's the only way I see you getting what you're asking for out of this.

This is honestly brutal. As a store owner, it's hard enough to get a community rolling for a game without them having to buy multiple cores to make a working deck.

In my opinion there should be no one ofs at all.

Seems like a cool game but...three cores is really rough for new players.

It is the exact reason why I decided to pass on this game.

I found the two-core strategy a bit daft in the past for the other LCGs but I went with it, but no way I am going to get three of the SAME boxes to play competitively.

This is honestly brutal. As a store owner, it's hard enough to get a community rolling for a game without them having to buy multiple cores to make a working deck.

In my opinion there should be no one ofs at all.

Seems like a cool game but...three cores is really rough for new players.

It is the exact reason why I decided to pass on this game.

I found the two-core strategy a bit daft in the past for the other LCGs but I went with it, but no way I am going to get three of the SAME boxes to play competitively.

Other than the fact that you can build 3 working decks with the core box (which makes the retail price ~$13 per deck), granted that they will all be allied and have to share a couple neutrals... why is that suprizing at all? You buy a magic preconstructed and its not like it has a playset of all the rares either... its a starter deck. giving you the core cards, and allowing you to expand into the areas you deem fun... Just seems very negative/defeatist to me.

This is honestly brutal. As a store owner, it's hard enough to get a community rolling for a game without them having to buy multiple cores to make a working deck.

In my opinion there should be no one ofs at all.

Seems like a cool game but...three cores is really rough for new players.

It is the exact reason why I decided to pass on this game.

I found the two-core strategy a bit daft in the past for the other LCGs but I went with it, but no way I am going to get three of the SAME boxes to play competitively.

I suppose it's a good thing that you don't need three core sets to play competitively. With just the Core set out, I would say you probably need two copies to really get into competitive play, but once a cycle or two has come out, you could get by with just one.

I will start with two. If we can get enough players in our area and get a competitive scene going on, then I am sure to go further in.

I just don't like to over commit unless I know lots of epic games are on the horizon.

This is honestly brutal. As a store owner, it's hard enough to get a community rolling for a game without them having to buy multiple cores to make a working deck.

In my opinion there should be no one ofs at all.

Seems like a cool game but...three cores is really rough for new players.

It is the exact reason why I decided to pass on this game.

I found the two-core strategy a bit daft in the past for the other LCGs but I went with it, but no way I am going to get three of the SAME boxes to play competitively.

Other than the fact that you can build 3 working decks with the core box (which makes the retail price ~$13 per deck), granted that they will all be allied and have to share a couple neutrals... why is that suprizing at all? You buy a magic preconstructed and its not like it has a playset of all the rares either... its a starter deck. giving you the core cards, and allowing you to expand into the areas you deem fun... Just seems very negative/defeatist to me.

It is surprising to me because I thought that having to buy two core-sets for the SW:LCG was bad enough, giving me so many junk cards I'd never need. And now we're at three.

Also - what you perceive as negative is simply an opinion - which clashes with FFGs and you might say in general, with the LCG business model.

Seriously, good luck trying to get new people (especially non 40K die-hard fans) to buy 2-3 of the SAME product, in order to play this game. I know that I won't be able to get anyone in my gaming group to play this and they are indeed 40K nuts. (like me)

It would be like asking someone to buy a second car, because the wind-shield only comes with the second purchase.

Sure, you can drive the first one, but y'know...

This is honestly brutal. As a store owner, it's hard enough to get a community rolling for a game without them having to buy multiple cores to make a working deck.

In my opinion there should be no one ofs at all.

Seems like a cool game but...three cores is really rough for new players.

It is the exact reason why I decided to pass on this game.

I found the two-core strategy a bit daft in the past for the other LCGs but I went with it, but no way I am going to get three of the SAME boxes to play competitively.

I suppose it's a good thing that you don't need three core sets to play competitively. With just the Core set out, I would say you probably need two copies to really get into competitive play, but once a cycle or two has come out, you could get by with just one.

While that is a good thing, having to wait until later in the game's lifespan (so to speak) in order to play, or, fork out for something I that personally believe is daft is not really a choice for me.

My 2 Krak grenades

Having full playsets of the core cards is optional (but desirable). Personally, I'm only buying one core for now (and no expansions) and treating the game as a boxed product until I stop expanding Netrunner.

If I was going to invest heavily, I'd buy 2 Cores now (for enhanced deckbuilding) and a third later.

This is honestly brutal. As a store owner, it's hard enough to get a community rolling for a game without them having to buy multiple cores to make a working deck.

In my opinion there should be no one ofs at all.

Seems like a cool game but...three cores is really rough for new players.

It is the exact reason why I decided to pass on this game.

I found the two-core strategy a bit daft in the past for the other LCGs but I went with it, but no way I am going to get three of the SAME boxes to play competitively.

I suppose it's a good thing that you don't need three core sets to play competitively. With just the Core set out, I would say you probably need two copies to really get into competitive play, but once a cycle or two has come out, you could get by with just one.

While that is a good thing, having to wait until later in the game's lifespan (so to speak) in order to play, or, fork out for something I that personally believe is daft is not really a choice for me.

My 2 Krak grenades

Did you even read my post? I never said that you have to wait until later in the game's lifespan in order to play. All you need in order to play is 1 core. I don't know where you got the idea you needed more than that to play the game. Even for competitive play, which is not required to enjoy/play the game, you could get away with two. That is by no means required just to play it.

Seriously, good luck trying to get new people (especially non 40K die-hard fans) to buy 2-3 of the SAME product, in order to play this game. I know that I won't be able to get anyone in my gaming group to play this and they are indeed 40K nuts. (like me)

It would be like asking someone to buy a second car, because the wind-shield only comes with the second purchase.

This is kind of ridiculous, I will have a lot of luck getting new people to buy 1-3 copies of the same product. I have already done it for other LCG's. The car analogy doesn't even make sense and I'm not even sure there is a good way to change it to apply here. In your example the car is missing a vital piece, which isn't true for an LCG Core Set. You won't get any new cards that you don't already with a second core. Just more copies of what you have.

Additionally, when the price for 3 copies of this core set is roughly the same as a single titanic model or 2-3 boxes of models for the miniatures game 40k (which you need 3-4 times that for an actual army) it doesn't seem steep at all

Did you even read my post?

No. I just quoted it at random.

-.-

Yes, I did read it.

Did you even read mine?

I never said that you have to wait until later in the game's lifespan in order to play.

With just the Core set out, I would say you probably need two copies to really get into competitive play

You did, without knowing it, I almost always play competitively.

I don't know where you got the idea you needed more than that to play the game. Even for competitive play, which is not required to enjoy/play the game, you could get away with two. That is by no means required just to play it.

The reviews out there at the moment disagree with your statement. Are they all wrong?

And this one right here in this very forum: http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/112200-this-is-what-you-buy-competitive-buy-list-and-faq/

This is kind of ridiculous, I will have a lot of luck getting new people to buy 1-3 copies of the same product. I have already done it for other LCG's.

That is great, but as previously stated, it won't work here.

The car analogy doesn't even make sense and I'm not even sure there is a good way to change it to apply here. In your example the car is missing a vital piece, which isn't true for an LCG Core Set. You won't get any new cards that you don't already with a second core. Just more copies of what you have.

http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/112200-this-is-what-you-buy-competitive-buy-list-and-faq/

etc, etc, etc.

My 2 Kraks

Additionally, when the price for 3 copies of this core set is roughly the same as a single titanic model or 2-3 boxes of models for the miniatures game 40k (which you need 3-4 times that for an actual army) it doesn't seem steep at all

True!

I've been playing 40K for 18+ years and I don't think it would be wise to speculate how much I've spent during that time.

I just read through this thread in order to understand one thing...In the expansion packs for this game, due the cards come in 3x copies of each card or 1x? I am thinking it is 1x and in order to get 3x of a card type I want, I would have to purchase an expansion pack 3 times. Does anyone know if my assumption is correct?

Thanks.

I just read through this thread in order to understand one thing...In the expansion packs for this game, due the cards come in 3x copies of each card or 1x? I am thinking it is 1x and in order to get 3x of a card type I want, I would have to purchase an expansion pack 3 times. Does anyone know if my assumption is correct?

Thanks.

That assumption is incorrect; From the Expansion mainpage, "Each War Pack offers a full playset of every unit, attachment, support, and event card within. In this cycle, every War Pack introduces a new warlord and a new style of play to the endless battles of Warhammer 40,000: Conquest alongside powerful new cards for each faction."

A full playset means that the Commander related cards will come in the usual distribution, which will not be 3x, and the other cards will come in 3x.

This debate is mainly due to the fact that the primary game does not provide 3x of all the 'rare' cards, but the expansions will.

I just read through this thread in order to understand one thing...In the expansion packs for this game, due the cards come in 3x copies of each card or 1x? I am thinking it is 1x and in order to get 3x of a card type I want, I would have to purchase an expansion pack 3 times. Does anyone know if my assumption is correct?

Thanks.

All warpacks have 3x copies of the new cards that are not Warlords or Signature squad cards.