I like them but they mitigate damage, not outright keep you from GETTING hit. I mean, how many times can you "kind of" reflect a blaster but it stings you?

I like them but they mitigate damage, not outright keep you from GETTING hit. I mean, how many times can you "kind of" reflect a blaster but it stings you?

Combat checks are not single shots, but a series of moments. Reflecting partial damage is just not reflecting every shot fired at you. Also, Wounds are not really wounds. Criticals are the REAL wounds. HP is a more nebulous concept in most games, but it gets a physical name.

Thank you! I knew it worked but the visual was eluding me. I have terrible cranial flatulence today...

I like them but they mitigate damage, not outright keep you from GETTING hit. I mean, how many times can you "kind of" reflect a blaster but it stings you?

They're ranked talents. So the more ranks, the more mitigation. The iconic movie characters are likely cross specialized in a number of talent trees and likely have access to numerous ranks of the talents.

Also, pretty sure I've read at least one scene in an EU book where someone manages to deflect a blaster bolt that was aimed at them, but not sufficiently, and they still end up getting grazed, and there are several instances I've read where a parry still resulted in a little bit of charred skin.

Even if it's a single bolt, think about the scene in The Matrix where Neo first learns to dodge bullets: he still gets grazed by one of them, even if the ability is a game-changer.

As posted above, you might deflect it away from your heart, but it might hit your arm instead, as your angle wasn't quite direct enough. In the case of weapons that fire volleys (re: most weapons) to represent a single attack, one bolt just got through and hit you in a non-vital way. However, when you consider that it mitigates 3 damage to start, and most characters are going to have at LEAST 2 soak, that's 5 damage off the top in pretty much all cases, much more likely 6 damage, as soak is tied to brawn, and most lightsaber wielders are going to start with a bonus to brawn if they can manage it early on instead of waiting for the attribute shifting talent. Each successive time they take the Reflect talent, they increase this max damage by 1.

That means lower level characters can only block base damage done by thrown lightsabers, and all base damage for energy weapons except the heavy blaster pistol, blaster carbine, and blaster rifle at the very start of play, unless wielded by a well trained or talented opponent. Add some armor with 2 soak, and they are pretty well protected against those too. And that is out of the box. 4 ranks in this talent, after 200 XP or so, and you basically won't be doing much of any damage with anything they can reflect (or parry, after 4 ranks of that) unless you are a BBEG, or a maxed out minion group with some reserves and a decent brawn or agility at base. It's really pretty powerful.

One of the ways that Jedi are shown to be killed is with overwhelming firepower. While I'm still not convinced of the design decision in F&D, it has one side effect.

Since you handle reflecting in the damage process, rather than the to-hit process, the original shot is still a hit. This allows the shooter to use advantage to activate extra auto-fire or dual weapon hits, thus forcing the Jedi to burn more Strain to reflect those extra shots. This matches the source material, making Jedi vulnerable to high volumes of fire.

However, it also means that if the shot does even one point of damage, the shooter can activate a Crit. Possibly killing the Jedi with the reflected bolt.

I think the way Parry and Reflect are written is in keeping with the general spirit of the system that getting into a fight is going to lead to you getting hurt, particularly if your opponent is of a same or higher degree of prowess as you.

From playing all three of the "Jedi" pre-gens at GenCon, including the Shii-Cho Knight going up against a MagnaGuard, having the talents reduce the damage works a lot better at keeping a PC in the fight, as this system seems to have been designed to prevent "sure things" in regards to the dice pools. I've seen characters with four proficiency dice and several boost dice fail against a simple Average difficulty with no setback dice (yeah, they generated a truckload of Advantage, but the check still failed). Against a lightsaber, being able to say "nope, drop that damage by a few points" is pretty handy, even if you have to take quite a strain hit to do it. Same with Reflect against high-powered ranged weapons like heavy blaster rifles and bowcasters; even being able to shave 3 points off the damage can make the difference between being badly wounded or being unconscious and critically injured.

One of the ways that Jedi are shown to be killed is with overwhelming firepower. While I'm still not convinced of the design decision in F&D, it has one side effect.

Since you handle reflecting in the damage process, rather than the to-hit process, the original shot is still a hit. This allows the shooter to use advantage to activate extra auto-fire or dual weapon hits, thus forcing the Jedi to burn more Strain to reflect those extra shots. This matches the source material, making Jedi vulnerable to high volumes of fire.

However, it also means that if the shot does even one point of damage, the shooter can activate a Crit. Possibly killing the Jedi with the reflected bolt.

It seems fair to me.

Yes, a crit can occur, but the odds of it killing someone are beyond terrible. You need like +50 to the roll and a 95+ on the dice to outright kill someone with one hit. That's pretty darn slim. Most GMs are not so bloodthirsty as to combine vicious and lethal blows in such a manner. If a player has that ability then Big Bad Evil Guys just get enough Durable to eliminate the possibility of the one hit kill.

The quick kill doesn't bother me, it's the one hit kill that shouldn't take out PCs and important NPCs. I loath the giant bag of hit points enemies. Rolling dice for a half hour plus really isn't that much fun.

That's my primary fear. GMs will make the light saber wielder with tons of parry and reflect and second wind to get strain back and it will take all night just to whittle the bastard down. That's the kind of stuff that gets player to play games on their laptops/phones when round 14 starts.

I see all your points and am inclined to agree, however after more thought it seems that some version of a defensive Talent would suffice. We see Jedi knocking barrages of blaster fire away with ease, never taking a hit. With Reflect as-is you're being pinged down, which is dangerous. Take a guy with a blaster rifle, some mids and Talents and you're being hit with about 12 damage on a hit, which is a viable opponent at earlier levels. Grab two ranks in Reflect and you've knocked it down to 8 damage. It doesn't seem that good to me.

I'd like to see Deflect as a Talent that grants a boost to defense, be it SB dice or upgrading difficulty. For knocking blaster fire back, it'd be Reflect and work as-is.

It's not that I hate the rules as they are, they just don't seem to invoke the feel I was expecting.

I see all your points and am inclined to agree, however after more thought it seems that some version of a defensive Talent would suffice. We see Jedi knocking barrages of blaster fire away with ease, never taking a hit. With Reflect as-is you're being pinged down, which is dangerous. Take a guy with a blaster rifle, some mids and Talents and you're being hit with about 12 damage on a hit, which is a viable opponent at earlier levels. Grab two ranks in Reflect and you've knocked it down to 8 damage. It doesn't seem that good to me.

I'd like to see Deflect as a Talent that grants a boost to defense, be it SB dice or upgrading difficulty. For knocking blaster fire back, it'd be Reflect and work as-is.

It's not that I hate the rules as they are, they just don't seem to invoke the feel I was expecting.

If you want a defensive lightsaber, throw a curved hilt on that puppy (1 mod to give Defensive +1) and a Lorrdian gem (base Defensive 1, and 1 optional Defensive +1 mod). That's Defensive 3. Or there's the Defensive Circle Soresu Defender talent (make a hard (PPP) Lightsaber (Int) check, gain Defensive 1 + 1 per . There's also the Defensive Training talent for 4 'saber forms that give you Defensive X, where X=number of ranks in the talent when using a Lightsaber, Melee, or Brawl weapon.

For upgrading attack checks against the Force user, the Dodge and Side Step talents are a great place to start. Otherwise the Sense power is where you want to look. Heck, the Misdirect power has that nifty control upgrade that adds an auto- to all combat checks against you.

So there are already ways of getting Defensive and upgrading checks against you. Parry/reflect needed to be different, otherwise there would be nothing to differentiate it from the existing talents/powers.

-EF

One of the ways that Jedi are shown to be killed is with overwhelming firepower. While I'm still not convinced of the design decision in F&D, it has one side effect.

Since you handle reflecting in the damage process, rather than the to-hit process, the original shot is still a hit. This allows the shooter to use advantage to activate extra auto-fire or dual weapon hits, thus forcing the Jedi to burn more Strain to reflect those extra shots. This matches the source material, making Jedi vulnerable to high volumes of fire.

However, it also means that if the shot does even one point of damage, the shooter can activate a Crit. Possibly killing the Jedi with the reflected bolt.

Also, it keeps the Jedi's abilities reasonably scaled. An additional turn-long defensive bonus (we already have Defensive Stance, Side Step, and Force Sense) could disproportionately scale a Jedi's power against multiple opponents (since they only pay the cost once per turn).

I would prefer adding S or C to a single attack for Strain, so that the ability never becomes absolute. Then the classic reflect-back-at-the-shooter could trigger off of attacking Despairs (or even Threats, with Improved).

My biggest worry is that so many of the Jedi abilities are certain , in that once their trigger occurs, they will always work. One of the strengths of this system is the flexibility of the dice pool in resolving events, and yet so many of their abilities ignore or even counteract it.

I see all your points and am inclined to agree, however after more thought it seems that some version of a defensive Talent would suffice. We see Jedi knocking barrages of blaster fire away with ease, never taking a hit. With Reflect as-is you're being pinged down, which is dangerous. Take a guy with a blaster rifle, some mids and Talents and you're being hit with about 12 damage on a hit, which is a viable opponent at earlier levels. Grab two ranks in Reflect and you've knocked it down to 8 damage. It doesn't seem that good to me.

I'd like to see Deflect as a Talent that grants a boost to defense, be it SB dice or upgrading difficulty. For knocking blaster fire back, it'd be Reflect and work as-is.

It's not that I hate the rules as they are, they just don't seem to invoke the feel I was expecting.

Your math is off a little bit. Reflect reduces damage by 3+ the number of ranks you have in reflect.

So two ranks of reflect reduces damage by 5. So 12 damage becomes 7, and if you have 4 points of soak 7 damage becomes 3.

What would point out is that a starting character could easily get two ranks in Reflect.

It only cost about 30 to 40 xp to get two ranks Reflect. You're still basically talking about a low level character at that point.

You see if Reflect granted setback dice as if the person using them were in deep cover, then effectively in your mixed campaign with characters from Force and Destiny, Edge of the Empire, and Age of Rebellion, the Jedi with 50 XP can charge in at the enemy with his lightsaber drawn, and be as safe as someone who is behind full cover taking pop shots at the enemy.

Now if you want to play the Jedi that can just wade into battle and at the front of the pack and kick all kinds of butt, you can buy a second lightsaber tree and get 6 ranks of reflect pretty easy. That's 9 points of damage mitigation at the cost of 2 strain. Add 4 soak to that and any attack that hits you for 13 or less would damage effectively hits you for 0 wounds. Now granted the amount of experience investment required to do that is pretty significant, but it's doable by around the time you reach 150 experience points if you budget it right.

Besides, you can use advantage to recover strain mid-combat, which can make your Jedi extremely hard to kill when he finally gets to "knight level",

I see all your points and am inclined to agree, however after more thought it seems that some version of a defensive Talent would suffice. We see Jedi knocking barrages of blaster fire away with ease, never taking a hit. With Reflect as-is you're being pinged down, which is dangerous. Take a guy with a blaster rifle, some mids and Talents and you're being hit with about 12 damage on a hit, which is a viable opponent at earlier levels. Grab two ranks in Reflect and you've knocked it down to 8 damage. It doesn't seem that good to me.

I'd like to see Deflect as a Talent that grants a boost to defense, be it SB dice or upgrading difficulty. For knocking blaster fire back, it'd be Reflect and work as-is.

It's not that I hate the rules as they are, they just don't seem to invoke the feel I was expecting.

We see accomplish Jedi KNIGHTS and MASTERS batting back multiple attacks and going unscathed. Personally, I think 150 XP is a bit low to be representing the Jedi Knights we've seen in the films. Certainly, I'd expect a Jedi Knight to have more than 2 ranks of Reflect and Parry, not to mention that they probably also have the defensive Sense talents, maybe a rank or two of Defensive Training or Defensive on their lightsaber, or Dodge, or Defensive Circle. Once you're adding in more than one of those, the chance of being hit at all drops (and a lot of that can be described as being deflected with the lightsaber), and then those few hits you are taking are being reduced by 3-5 damage probably, and then being applied to soak, and it's pretty reasonable to expect such a character to have a soak of at least 4, and likely in the 5-7 range (armored robes, Superior quality, Force Protection, higher than a 2 Brawn, which is not ideal for most lightsaber specialists in the game , but would demonstrate the physical training typical of the Jedi, Enhance -- Brawn, the Protect power), so that's reducing 9-11 damage of the attacks that do hit, and can possibly be more.

If you're getting attacked by one target per round, you're likely not getting hit at all, which is what we see in the films, whereas being assaulted by a squadron, well, we see how most of the Jedi died during Order 66, and even those who were alerted to to the betrayal were quickly overwhelmed.

Jedi already have more defensive options than most other characters.

Huh, I thought it was 2+Talents (that's what my book says). Anyway, it's not something I dislike, it's more I have only read the new stuff and haven't seen it in action. The point about who's using it (experienced Jedi) is sound. I'm hoping to get to using the beta so I can give feedback based on experience, not a read-through or how I think the rules should be based on books and films. I really want this one to be polished and hope to help out with that. In the end if I don't like it but it's kept there's no need for me to complain about something I can change. But I trust FFG with mah Star Wars and they've done right by it so far, as far as I'm concerned.

Oh, as far as "Knight level play" goes, I wonder if that's just a term that is relatable as opposed to "Take +150 xp and you're a Jedi Knight". Kind of like, "Utinni!". You don't make people yell it when they use that Talent*, it's just flavor.

*I told a player they had to do just that (and sound like a Jawa) or the Talent didn't work...

My players have no trouble yelling Utinni! when they use that Talent

We see accomplish Jedi KNIGHTS and MASTERS batting back multiple attacks and going unscathed. Personally, I think 150 XP is a bit low to be representing the Jedi Knights we've seen in the films.

The Jedi who get the most screen-time are almost invariably the "fighters" of the Order. Every Jedi shown more than once in the movies achieves the rank of Master (and therefore General) by the end of the Clone Wars. Even if you include the books, the only major Jedi characters in the Old Republic who specialize in something at the expense of combat are Jocasta Nu, Barriss Offee, and Etain Tur-Mukan.

A starting character for F&D is probably at about the level of Zett Jukassa, the Padawan who is killed in front of Bail Organa on the Jedi Temple's landing pad. The arena on Geonosis and the temple on Coruscant are both littered with the bodies of "Knight-level" characters.

Here is something I started doing a long time ago regarding hit points. I treat hit points more like strain or combat fatigue. When someone takes a solid hit from an axe or a bullet in real life, it is unlikely that they will be able to recover in time to keep fighting. Being able to withstand multiple axe blows and still have the strength to keep kicking just doesn't make sense to me. When someone "takes damage" in our games, it is more like they have had a close call with death. The more close calls you have, the more likely you are to eventually cut it too close and get killed. So, when someone is down to their last few hit points, it is not as if they are walking around with deep lacerations, broken limbs, and smashed organs. Rather, it is like they have exerted themselves too much in having to avoid all those injuries that the next attack might be the one that finally lands.

Now, how do we warrant the use of healing items like stimpacks, bacta tanks, and other medical items? If "taking damage" means you are just having close calls, then why would you need to heal? Well, maybe when you took 5 damage from the enemy's sword, it actually just clanged off your armor and gave you some nasty bruising. Maybe taking 7 damage from the enemy rifle meant having to make a risky dodge, causing you to sprain your knee or be grazed by the shot. But, when that attack finally gets through and takes the last of your hit points, that means the enemy was finally able to find the gap in your armor, or pressure you with enough shots to make you forget to completely take cover.

One thing to also remember is that the designers are trying to avoid the "heaping handfuls of dice" scenario that is endemic to games like Shadowrun and HERO system.

Setback dice really aren't that much of a deterrent, as they've only got two facings with a failure symbol, meaning that there's only a 1 in 3 chance that it's going to keep you from getting clobbered. Many of the Saber Form specs offer pre-existing defensive talents like Dodge, and there's always the old standby of Sense's defensive Control Upgrade for a couple of easy upgrades to a couple opponent's attack rolls. I managed to put together a Knight-level version of my namesake character, and between Sense and Dodge as well as 2 ranks in Parry and Reflect, he's pretty good at damage avoidance (though said options are murder on his Strain Threshold if used too frequently).

My biggest problem with Reflect is that in order for the Jedi to send it back as an attack, the defender has to get 3 Threat or a Despair. This makes it more of a passive talent. I feel that there should be some way that the Jedi should perform some action to actively try to reflect the blast towards another target.

I think they're trying to avoid more dice rolling and the a roll for every detail. Adding more rolls slows combat down and doesn't lend to a feeling of frantic action packed combat. I also don't think they want the Talent to be something the player can count on being able to increase their abilities to do every time they're shot at. It was once in awhile in canon we see it done.

My biggest problem with Reflect is that in order for the Jedi to send it back as an attack, the defender has to get 3 Threat or a Despair. This makes it more of a passive talent. I feel that there should be some way that the Jedi should perform some action to actively try to reflect the blast towards another target.

Like picking up the Sense power and using the control upgrades to get bigger dice (which means more threats and option for despair). That largely sounds like what the Jedi we see in TCW doing. Sensing incoming attacks and deflecting them.

My biggest problem with Reflect is that in order for the Jedi to send it back as an attack, the defender has to get 3 Threat or a Despair. This makes it more of a passive talent. I feel that there should be some way that the Jedi should perform some action to actively try to reflect the blast towards another target.

Yeah, that was my issue when working on the Deflect Blasters talent for my Ways of the Force fan supplement.

While I can appreciate the simplicity of simply requiring a certain number of Threat or a Despair, from my own playtesting having enough of those come up (in addition to requiring the player to use Parry or Reflect in the first place) does cut down on how frequently a player would get to use them. If anything, they'll be even less useful as the PC goes up against more capable opponents, as the number of upgraded dice on attack rolls is going to outstripe the opportunities to upgrade the difficultly dice on those same rolls.

Admittedly, it beats having to make a separate skill check. Hmm, an idea...