I know this topic has popped up in the forums before, and it's recieved varying degrees of attention. So let me preface this by asking all players who tend to play this game one or two player to leave the room....

From the utter dearth of player cards that specifically target treachery encounters, I have to assume that the designers place a high premium on the players capacity to mitigate these effects.

I think there are plenty of good ways to introduce anti-treachery cards that sync with some of the interesting mechanics we've been seeing from the ring-maker cycle, namely the doomed and secrecy keywords which I think would be perfect vehicles for another sort of anti-treachery response. Thoughts?

I agree that the doomed mechanic would be a good one to use as the cost of a treachery cancellation effect, though I'm not so sure about secrecy. I think Leaf Brooch + A Test of Will works just fine for secrecy.

I think another good way to handle it would be similar to Dunedain Watcher: have an ally that discards itself to cancel the treachery. I would also appreciate if this was outside of Spirit. Honestly, it's difficult to run a game without some Spirit because When Revealed effects can be devastating.

Dont worry my Thorin company deck has no spirit but cab crash almost any quest in game now.

Test if will is obvious choice but there is also other ways

I think treachery cancellation will always remain somewhat rare, as it should, because unlike enemies and locations, where there are a variety of ways to manage these cards that stay in play, treacheries can only be cancelled or left to be resolved. There isn't much wiggle-room here, and making it too easy to deal with treacheries would take the teeth out of most scenarios and about a 1/3 of each encounter deck.

That being said, I could see an effect like the Ithilien Lookout that allows you to look at the top card and discard it if it is a treachery. Another interesting option could be a card that lets you delay the effect of a treachery for a phase or two. This may seem useless, but it could have some interesting applications. For example, a treachery card that fetches enemies could be pushed back until after the quest phase, so that at least their threat is not factored into quest resolution.

It may not be cancellation, but Lore already has cards like Risk Some Light and Out of the Wild that help you avoid the worst upcoming encounter card (albeit not specifically a Treachery) in a proactive manner. Risk Some Light in particular remains useful regardless of the game being solo or multi-player since it digs more than one card in.

There are quite a few treacheries that have surge and/or doomed. Using the aforementioned cards can let you avoid dealing with those keywords at all.

It may not be cancellation, but Lore already has cards like Risk Some Light and Out of the Wild that help you avoid the worst upcoming encounter card (albeit not specifically a Treachery) in a proactive manner. Risk Some Light in particular remains useful regardless of the game being solo or multi-player since it digs more than one card in.

There are quite a few treacheries that have surge and/or doomed. Using the aforementioned cards can let you avoid dealing with those keywords at all.

The thing with treacheries is that there is not much of a middle ground in interacting with them. Enemies can be damaged or kept from attacking, treacheries can have their threat negated or some progress put on, but with treacheries it's kind of all or nothing. Test of Will is actually amazing, because it can negate one player turn's worth of encounter cards for one card and one resource.

Eleanor is obviously slightly different in that the treachery is replaced with a new encounter card, so that's a mechanic that might happen again, e.g. as an event or attachment.

I really like the discard an ally to cancel option though. Something where you have to deal a certain amount of damage to your heroes might also work for tactics.

I think if they were making a second edition of lord of the rings treacheries would be one of the areas where they would add complexity. Specifically I think they would add key words to match the other card types.

Then you you could have effects that negated for instance, orc treacheries, (the way orcslayer damages orc enemies, or cards which work better on mountains locations).

As it is - I think treachery cancellation will ultimately be the rarest card type when they eventually stop making this game.

I wouldn't mind seeing some cards that interacted differently though - you could imagine a cursed artifact hero attachment which had "Exhaust Cursed Artifact to change the when revealed text of a treachery card just revealed to ... deal 2 damage to a hero with cursed artifact attached".

I think there's several potential cards along those lines that are like Eleanor - they negate one bad effect, but trigger another.

What about a card that delayed the effects of a treachery? Something like a lore event for a cost of 1 that as a response would set the treachery card just revealed outside of play, replacing it with another encounter card, then, after the round ends, the treachery would be placed atop of the encounter deck. You could use encounter deck manipulation abilities, such as Denethor, to further mitigate its effects, or at the very least prepare for it.

Love it. Imagine one of these on the last stage. Escaping from an Exhaustion in Rhosgobel, or some Blocking Wargs to finish the game. How about a version for any encounter card, but you have to reveal an extra card during refresh? That means pushing back a little at a high cost, with game-winning potential.

Another interesting option could be a card that lets you delay the effect of a treachery for a phase or two. This may seem useless, but it could have some interesting applications. For example, a treachery card that fetches enemies could be pushed back until after the quest phase, so that at least their threat is not factored into quest resolution.

What about a card that delayed the effects of a treachery? Something like a lore event for a cost of 1 that as a response would set the treachery card just revealed outside of play, replacing it with another encounter card, then, after the round ends, the treachery would be placed atop of the encounter deck. You could use encounter deck manipulation abilities, such as Denethor, to further mitigate its effects, or at the very least prepare for it.

Great minds think alike...

Oops, didn't see your post, sorry.

No need to be sorry. I like your version that puts it on top of the encounter deck at the end of the round. That actually would've been a cool Palantir effect, as it would've had synergy with Denethor, and could include some kind of drawback or something.

Raven had a great idea, to delay treacheries, but Feta had a grear idea for how the mechanics should work. Loving these ideas guys.

Thanks. Glad you like them. Alternatively we could have a card like Dunedain Watcher: a 3 (or even 4) cost leadership ally with basic stats, something like 1 each and 2 HP that could be discarded from play to cancel or replace a treachery card, provided he was commited to the quest.

For a tactics equivelant I think a 1 cost event card that replaces the treachery card with the encounter deck's topmost enemy would be ideal. The treachery would then be reshuffled in the deck. This way, the tactics player would force the deck to give him a challenge more appropriate for his combat playstyle.

Of course, with the slow rate new cards come out, I doubt we'll be seeing such new cards any time soon.

A couple new ideas popped into my head. This first one is similar to Minas Tirith Lampwright. It's Lore, where you have the greatest amount of scrying so you could potentially always "guess" correctly.

1 cost, Lore, Ally

1W, 0A, 0D, 1H

Response: After an treachery card is revealed, discard [THIS ALLY] to name enemy, location, or treachery. Look at the top card of the encounter deck. If that card is the named type, cancel the treachery card.

Here's an interesting event that could work for Tactics:

0 cost, Tactics, Event

Response: After a card with a 'when revealed' effect is revealed, discard a character with 2 or more defense to cancel that effect.

I also think that Tactics should have a reliable means of dealing with shadow cards. Maybe we could have means of just dealing with certain annoying types of shadow cards. Like have an attachment that says that enemies can only attack one time per round. This would prevent the "extra attack" shadows, but it would also with other effects that give enemies additional attacks. That would kinda negate Durin's Bane, so maybe have it say that enemies cannot attack YOU more than once per round. Or maybe we could target the +attack shadows with something like "While attached character is defending, cancel any shadow effects that give the attacking enemy + attack."

We could also limit the scope like this: "After the attached character is declared as a defender, discard a shadow card dealt to an enemy engaged with another player." This would work wonderfully to either allow you to sentinel defend or give another player without Tactics to be able to defend more confidently. The interesting nuance is that if you're the last player to defend and you didn't defend with sentinel, then the ability is useless. It's also useless solo, but in certain multiplayer configurations, this can be a very powerful card. The ability could even be on a sentinel hero itself (of course it would have to be reworded to refer specifically to the hero instead of "attached character").

I am actually against giving tactics tools versus shadow effects because tactics can already deal with them with pure brute force. Beregond with shield AND a means to avoid even the most basic of shadows would be overkill. I do like your final suggestion however.

I do like your final suggestion however.

Which specifically? The sentinel defender that can remove shadows from enemies engaged with other players? Or just the idea of removing shadows from other players?

Removing shadows from other players.

Here's an interesting event that could work for Tactics:

0 cost, Tactics, Event

Response: After a card with a 'when revealed' effect is revealed, discard a character with 2 or more defense to cancel that effect.

I particularly like this ability! Perhaps instead discard a character with 2 or more defense or Sentinel? This would give more use to Gondorian Spearman. May be a little too good I guess but there aren't many allies with 2 or more defense especially in tactics... and just as many with Sentinel!

Also surely only that you control or it would be way too good.

I'm afraid, if you're facing a harsh threachery quest in multiplayer - Eleanor is a must have. Treacheries that spawn a card per player is main reason for this.

Yeah. Eleanor's job is to save the group once (sometimes twice) per game.

Here's an interesting event that could work for Tactics:

0 cost, Tactics, Event

Response: After a card with a 'when revealed' effect is revealed, discard a character with 2 or more defense to cancel that effect.

I particularly like this ability! Perhaps instead discard a character with 2 or more defense or Sentinel? This would give more use to Gondorian Spearman. May be a little too good I guess but there aren't many allies with 2 or more defense especially in tactics... and just as many with Sentinel!

Also surely only that you control or it would be way too good.

I see no reason to make it so you can only discard an ally that you control. If another player is willing to let you discard one of their allies so that we can prevent a treachery, I don't see why not. It just gives it less limitation, but it's still the same cost either way.

There are plenty of allies in Tactics with 2+ defense. Just a quick count using CardGameDB's deckbuilder:

Tactics: 7

Spirit: 5

Leadership: 4

Lore: 2

Neutral: 4

Most of the allies with sentinel have 2 defense or more. The couple exceptions are Gondorian Spearman and Landroval. Also Arwen can give anyone sentinel. So adding "or sentinel" into there wouldn't give a whole lot more flexibility. Arwen, however could open up a lot of possibilities because she can give +1 AND sentinel, so either way she can open up a whole lot more target options.

Yeah fair reasoning. Does make sense.

Most of those tactics allies with 2 or more are trash though like Watcher of the Bruinen and Veteren of Nanduhirion. Then again I guess something like this would give them more usefulness however.

Yeah fair reasoning. Does make sense.

Most of those tactics allies with 2 or more are trash though like Watcher of the Bruinen and Veteren of Nanduhirion. Then again I guess something like this would give them more usefulness however.

Yea, it would definitely make them more useful. Any new card that makes old underused cards viable is a good thing. It means fewer duds sitting in your binders/boxes.