To me, what's central here is are we going to let a de facto rule, "fly casual", change the way we apply the actual rules of the game in competitive and/or casual play I think we can't. Allowing take-backs or the execution of missed opportunities at high levels of play, maybe even low levels too, will eventually degrade the integrity game. It allows for the growth of poor habits.

Heartily disagree. Unless the game to you is just a mechanical process.

The Dark Side is strong in this one. YEEESH.

Aw man, no need for that. You can disagree with me but you don't need to Sithspit-me...

I don't think the game is just a mechanical process. It's a competition between two sides, each agree to a certain number of considerations; most of the important considerations are explicit while others are assumed. Allowing a breech in those considerations violates the relationship between the contestants and changes the conditions of the contest. That's not fair, and correcting that inequity is like a Light Side trait, right?

Anyway, the question is, do you hold others to the same standard as you hold for yourself: I will select the proper direction (I am dyslexic, this can be difficult for me, but it's like brain push-ups), I will activate appropriately, I will remember my Critical triggers, I will remember to take an action, etc.?

But that doesn't mean I haven't given someone that consideration. At the Gamescape Store Championship, in swiss I was playing geordan and he missed a focus trigger, if he didn't get that focus evade he was down a ship sooner rather than later. Jeff patted me on the shoulder and said "Great sportsmanship, man." And I was thinking to myself this guy is so good if I hadn't reminded him I might actually beat him. I don't know. It was good karma, dice were nice the rest of the day. Anyway, the point is the game is evolving to the extent where behavior like that should not be allowed.

You mean what many of us feel is good sportsmanship on our part? I call that devolving, not evolving.

"Fly Casual" the game should be about having fun and good sportsmanship, not trying to win on mistakes. Don't be one of those warhammer guys who ruins the game for others.

If my opponent makes a mistake I'll nicely point it out, maybe they are still learning, maybe they are having a bad day, being a good sport and fostering a fun environment is more important than winning and you might even cheer someone up.

I have been through this plenty of times in my gaming lifetime.

You learn by the things you suffer. I've forgotten to recloak once & only ONCE. I noticed it after my opponent had moved & as sick as I felt I didn't take it back & later lost my phantom because of it.

In free or fun play anything goes. But in a real tournament I'm playing my team, not yours.

I may remind you once about your Fire Control System but after that you're on your own.

Also in a situation where your swarm is all hard turning 1 but the last guy goes 5 forward off the board, I will let you hard one him. Dials slide, its happened to me before, trust me it sucks.

Has it ever happened again? Heck no, I made sire right after that game to tighten every last one of them.

If we as players take away the penalties of forgetting triggers, abilities, etc, its only going to keep happening.

Ill ask you this, how many of you out there that have forgotten something or messed up before, have made that same mistake again? Not many I would think. Because it sucks & we never want to repeat it.

While burned hands do teach, they also blister and bleed. There are better ways to learn.

I have been through this plenty of times in my gaming lifetime.

You learn by the things you suffer. I've forgotten to recloak once & only ONCE. I noticed it after my opponent had moved & as sick as I felt I didn't take it back & later lost my phantom because of it.

In free or fun play anything goes. But in a real tournament I'm playing my team, not yours.

I may remind you once about your Fire Control System but after that you're on your own.

Also in a situation where your swarm is all hard turning 1 but the last guy goes 5 forward off the board, I will let you hard one him. Dials slide, its happened to me before, trust me it sucks.

Has it ever happened again? Heck no, I made sire right after that game to tighten every last one of them.

If we as players take away the penalties of forgetting triggers, abilities, etc, its only going to keep happening.

Ill ask you this, how many of you out there that have forgotten something or messed up before, have made that same mistake again? Not many I would think. Because it sucks & we never want to repeat it.

That's just it right? You have to find the careful balance to encourage new players to come back and keep from coddling laziness. The key is to accept it for what it is at the end of the day, just a game. From what I've seen, competitive players typically eat their mistakes to learn and remember so they don't repeat them in the future.

You have to find the careful balance to encourage new players to come back and keep from coddling laziness.

Fly Casual was intended to be an attitude where we avoid things like, the example above, about how someone lost their action because they flipped over their dial even though they said they were going to use Advanced Sensors. That was clearly out of line IMO, and I'd dare say most other peoples...

But at the same time it was never intended for Fly Casual to be used as a sledgehammer to force people to allow sloppy play either. Not letting someone fix a mistake does not make you a bad person, it is not poor sportsmanship, it does not taint your win.

Most importantly it is not "wining at all costs". It is the default way the game should be played and no one should ever be looked down on for not letting someone fix a mistake. Letting someone do that is cool, but that doesn't make you a jerk if you don't.

While burned hands do teach, they also blister and bleed. There are better ways to learn.

Really bad analogy. People tend to have different ways to learn to be honest, i prefer to directly dive in instead of a more hand held proccess. To each their own, but hey, i had let half a dozen players re-cloak already, while i only made that mistake once.

@Scizzler that's taking for granted that we don't politely ask our opponent how he does prefer to play the game outside tournaments . I advice on which action and why when i am playing with a new player, remember them, etc, etc.. if i can put him against another new player the better, if not i would play very default and let them maneuver etc. But for example i won't take my mistakes back, not against a newbye, not in a tournament.

I see those minor mistakes, as part of the game since they can change the game. And that's why i don't think people should put a villain sign to a player who doesn't allow mistakes, because we are all different.

I just see this as two different mindsets (or many shades of gray) colliding, people who think that those mistakes aren't big deal enough, and people who think they are. The problem comes when people start the namecalling and forcing players into forced behaviour instead of doing what they wanted in the first place on good faith. At the end of the day, it is the opponent who chooses, not you, if he allows you to re-do your mistake and you want to accept it, cool, if he doesn't allow you, be gracious and accepting about it. No need for namecalling. He is already on a poor spot making that choice in the first place, so be accepting.

How about an example from a different game, Attack Wing. The prizes have made for a pretty cut-throat environment, and trampling, let's not forget the trampling. A lot of people were saying they were glad to be in X-wing rather than Attack Wing after GenCon, so I think we could all agree that we don't want to head in that direction.

What I experienced there was pretty **** negative. I gave away extra prize ships, trying to make it so that they'd go to people who didn't have them but one guy butted in with the TO and got one. He already had 2. He built up a fleet of 4 of a different prize ship. I lost an event because I reminded a guy that he could shoot at me.In the moment I felt fine about it because I didn't want to win just by a dumb mistake. That guy then ended up winning a giant DS9 station by using a broken build everyone, including him, had insisted was tantamount to cheating (the story of conditional surrender in AW is a long one). I was not told when the next event was, despite asking a lot, after I started winning the Dominion War. I lost my chance at a once-off DS9 later when I was upset by having had people cancel an event that I drove 2 hours for and then be unpleasant about it, and forgot to use my target lock. Two or three people whom I'd given the benefit of the doubt to before, including my opponent, noticed this and didn't say anything. The same guy also beat me once when my dial slipped (a new ship I'd just bought) and got quite angry at me when I said that wasn't what I'd dialed in. Not saying I was entitled to any special consideration, but I tried my best to be a good guy to play against and it *never* came back around. I know some others felt the same way. Now that community is on life support.

This is a huge contrast to what I've experienced in X-wing, only one, maybe two, sketchy matches ever. Even if you're being competitive, it's still a game, and a little decency can go a long ways. So come on, guys, let's not be like Attack Wing.

While burned hands do teach, they also blister and bleed. There are better ways to learn.

Really bad analogy. People tend to have different ways to learn to be honest, i prefer to directly dive in instead of a more hand held proccess. To each their own, but hey, i had let half a dozen players re-cloak already, while i only made that mistake once.

I suppose the important thing is you have found a way too feel superior to so many other players. My analogy was spot on. You suggested the best way to learn was pain. Taken to its logical conclusion the nonsense of that idea is plain. Some people do need to make mistakes and be punished by them but for most people punishment is a terrible teaching tool because experiencing it shuts down the past of the cortex that does learning.

My view on mistakes.

It credits a player who gives an opponent a little slack.

However, the FAQ clearly states how to handle missed opportunities and mistakes. It's a competitive game. Dealing with fatigue, stress and making mistakes is part of it.

How people choose to handle this at home is one thing, but when playing premier events I expect players to follow the official rules and live with the consequences of their mistakes.

That said, a player should not exploit this nor hope to win against his opponent in such a manor.

While burned hands do teach, they also blister and bleed. There are better ways to learn.

Really bad analogy. People tend to have different ways to learn to be honest, i prefer to directly dive in instead of a more hand held proccess. To each their own, but hey, i had let half a dozen players re-cloak already, while i only made that mistake once.

I suppose the important thing is you have found a way too feel superior to so many other players. My analogy was spot on. You suggested the best way to learn was pain. Taken to its logical conclusion the nonsense of that idea is plain. Some people do need to make mistakes and be punished by them but for most people punishment is a terrible teaching tool because experiencing it shuts down the past of the cortex that does learning.

I didn't, i suggested that to each their own way, and then exposed my own experience. But what i was referring to with the bad analogy comment is that you compared physical or verbal abuse kind of punishment (the ones that are shown as terrible teaching tools) to just not fixing a mistake which would cause no harm to yourself, there is were the analogy is lost.

My view on mistakes.

It credits a player who gives an opponent a little slack.

However, the FAQ clearly states how to handle missed opportunities and mistakes. It's a competitive game. Dealing with fatigue, stress and making mistakes is part of it.

How people choose to handle this at home is one thing, but when playing premier events I expect players to follow the official rules and live with the consequences of their mistakes.

That said, a player should not exploit this nor hope to win against his opponent in such a manor.

While burned hands do teach, they also blister and bleed. There are better ways to learn.

Really bad analogy. People tend to have different ways to learn to be honest, i prefer to directly dive in instead of a more hand held proccess. To each their own, but hey, i had let half a dozen players re-cloak already, while i only made that mistake once.

I suppose the important thing is you have found a way too feel superior to so many other players. My analogy was spot on. You suggested the best way to learn was pain. Taken to its logical conclusion the nonsense of that idea is plain. Some people do need to make mistakes and be punished by them but for most people punishment is a terrible teaching tool because experiencing it shuts down the past of the cortex that does learning.

I find it quite amusing that you claim his post as evidence or proof of your previous assertions relating to poor sportsmanship yet at the same time you are guilty of vilifying a player for following the rules, claiming its a way to feel superior to your opponent.

As a player I try to play as tight as possible, this game, as with any other game that is exceptionally well balanced is won and lost by the amount of mistakes made, the more mistakes you make the more likely you are to lose.

Did it ever occur to you that it makes the game less enjoyable to players who minimise their mistakes when they are made by posters like yourself to feel obliged to allow take backs otherwise they will be castigated from the group?

In tournament play I enjoy a hard fought game as much as anyone and certainly enjoy a very close game win or lose, but if I lose to someone who made lots of mistakes and I kept pointing them out and allowing take backs all it does is reinforce sloppy play on my opponents behalf and reduce my own enjoyment level.

It also feels hollow to win a game against a player after they have made many mistakes but I would like to think that they will internally ask why they lost, I am more than happy to give them friendly advice after the match if they want it as well. This is where player growth and betterment comes from, you learn nothing by winning with lots of takebacks, and I want the X-Wing community to grow not stagnate.

What I don’t want to happen is that player win the game based on mistakes and continue to play poorly putting other players in awkward positions requesting take backs.

There is nothing less enjoyable about a game where you are obliged to point out your opponent errors, and in a defacto way this appears to be the case with your argument. Losing a game where you effectively lost to yourself is good for neither party.

While burned hands do teach, they also blister and bleed. There are better ways to learn.

Really bad analogy. People tend to have different ways to learn to be honest, i prefer to directly dive in instead of a more hand held proccess. To each their own, but hey, i had let half a dozen players re-cloak already, while i only made that mistake once.

I suppose the important thing is you have found a way too feel superior to so many other players. My analogy was spot on. You suggested the best way to learn was pain. Taken to its logical conclusion the nonsense of that idea is plain. Some people do need to make mistakes and be punished by them but for most people punishment is a terrible teaching tool because experiencing it shuts down the past of the cortex that does learning.

I didn't, i suggested that to each their own way, and then exposed my own experience. But what i was referring to with the bad analogy comment is that you compared physical or verbal abuse kind of punishment (the ones that are shown as terrible teaching tools) to just not fixing a mistake which would cause no harm to yourself, there is were the analogy is lost.

As to triggered mental states and learning, all that is required to trigger a person is that they experience a sense of loss. So even non physical punishment can do it, I'm not trying to tell you you are a bad person, just pointing to a hole in the idea about teaching people by making them stick to their error. If we played and I made a mistake it is competitive, I would not expect to get a take back, but if you made an honest mistake I would let you have one! unless it was becoming a pattern and I felt you were abusing my good will.

I find it quite amusing that you claim his post as evidence or proof of your previous assertions relating to poor sportsmanship yet at the same time you are guilty of vilifying a player for following the rules, claiming its a way to feel superior to your opponent.

As a player I try to play as tight as possible, this game, as with any other game that is exceptionally well balanced is won and lost by the amount of mistakes made, the more mistakes you make the more likely you are to lose.

Did it ever occur to you that it makes the game less enjoyable to players who minimise their mistakes when they are made by posters like yourself to feel obliged to allow take backs otherwise they will be castigated from the group?

In tournament play I enjoy a hard fought game as much as anyone and certainly enjoy a very close game win or lose, but if I lose to someone who made lots of mistakes and I kept pointing them out and allowing take backs all it does is reinforce sloppy play on my opponents behalf and reduce my own enjoyment level.

It also feels hollow to win a game against a player after they have made many mistakes but I would like to think that they will internally ask why they lost, I am more than happy to give them friendly advice after the match if they want it as well. This is where player growth and betterment comes from, you learn nothing by winning with lots of takebacks, and I want the X-Wing community to grow not stagnate.

What I don’t want to happen is that player win the game based on mistakes and continue to play poorly putting other players in awkward positions requesting take backs.

There is nothing less enjoyable about a game where you are obliged to point out your opponent errors, and in a defacto way this appears to be the case with your argument. Losing a game where you effectively lost to yourself is good for neither party.

As for the rest of your post, go back and ask yourself why you are so defensive of the behavior. When you deny someone an honest mistake forgiveness you betray yourself because you feel bad and your ego rushes in to tell you what you did was ok because somehow they deserved it, or you are helping them. Same goes for your example, it is not one person making one mistake, you are beating a straw effigy by claiming the hypothetical opponent is making mistakes constantly. The only scenario where that would make sense is in teaching a new player, where I expect you would be very forgiving and offer lots of help. So why choose that example to defend your behavior?

If you honestly believe in no holds barred play, that is fine, I also enjoy that play style. But I don't delude myself into thinking I have done the other person a favor.

While burned hands do teach, they also blister and bleed. There are better ways to learn.

Really bad analogy. People tend to have different ways to learn to be honest, i prefer to directly dive in instead of a more hand held proccess. To each their own, but hey, i had let half a dozen players re-cloak already, while i only made that mistake once.

I suppose the important thing is you have found a way too feel superior to so many other players. My analogy was spot on. You suggested the best way to learn was pain. Taken to its logical conclusion the nonsense of that idea is plain. Some people do need to make mistakes and be punished by them but for most people punishment is a terrible teaching tool because experiencing it shuts down the past of the cortex that does learning.

I didn't, i suggested that to each their own way, and then exposed my own experience. But what i was referring to with the bad analogy comment is that you compared physical or verbal abuse kind of punishment (the ones that are shown as terrible teaching tools) to just not fixing a mistake which would cause no harm to yourself, there is were the analogy is lost.

Read your post again, you refer to allowing mistake forgiveness as hand holding, which infantilized the target if the description, either or not you intended it. You also were careful to point out how you only make mistakes once and marginalized the ability of others to learn without loss. Basically you are seeming to say one thing but communicating quite another. It may well not be conscious, your surprise suggests that it wasn't but that is the meaning I take from your words.

As to triggered mental states and learning, all that is required to trigger a person is that they experience a sense of loss. So even non physical punishment can do it, I'm not trying to tell you you are a bad person, just pointing to a hole in the idea about teaching people by making them stick to their error. If we played and I made a mistake it is competitive, I would not expect to get a take back, but if you made an honest mistake I would let you have one! unless it was becoming a pattern and I felt you were abusing my good will.

I find it quite amusing that you claim his post as evidence or proof of your previous assertions relating to poor sportsmanship yet at the same time you are guilty of vilifying a player for following the rules, claiming its a way to feel superior to your opponent.

As a player I try to play as tight as possible, this game, as with any other game that is exceptionally well balanced is won and lost by the amount of mistakes made, the more mistakes you make the more likely you are to lose.

Did it ever occur to you that it makes the game less enjoyable to players who minimise their mistakes when they are made by posters like yourself to feel obliged to allow take backs otherwise they will be castigated from the group?

In tournament play I enjoy a hard fought game as much as anyone and certainly enjoy a very close game win or lose, but if I lose to someone who made lots of mistakes and I kept pointing them out and allowing take backs all it does is reinforce sloppy play on my opponents behalf and reduce my own enjoyment level.

It also feels hollow to win a game against a player after they have made many mistakes but I would like to think that they will internally ask why they lost, I am more than happy to give them friendly advice after the match if they want it as well. This is where player growth and betterment comes from, you learn nothing by winning with lots of takebacks, and I want the X-Wing community to grow not stagnate.

What I don’t want to happen is that player win the game based on mistakes and continue to play poorly putting other players in awkward positions requesting take backs.

There is nothing less enjoyable about a game where you are obliged to point out your opponent errors, and in a defacto way this appears to be the case with your argument. Losing a game where you effectively lost to yourself is good for neither party.

I think you may be confusing me with another poster. I never said word one about sportsmanship. My whole point was contrary to the line about how not offering mistake forgiveness was some kind of public service. That is not accurate. If you deny someone a take back you are not helping them, you are helping you. It is your right to do so but your desire to cloak it is some kind of hostile altruism rings false. You would not need to dress up the behavior so if it were not bothering your empathetic brain parts.

As for the rest of your post, go back and ask yourself why you are so defensive of the behavior. When you deny someone an honest mistake forgiveness you betray yourself because you feel bad and your ego rushes in to tell you what you did was ok because somehow they deserved it, or you are helping them. Same goes for your example, it is not one person making one mistake, you are beating a straw effigy by claiming the hypothetical opponent is making mistakes constantly. The only scenario where that would make sense is in teaching a new player, where I expect you would be very forgiving and offer lots of help. So why choose that example to defend your behavior?

If you honestly believe in no holds barred play, that is fine, I also enjoy that play style. But I don't delude myself into thinking I have done the other person a favor.

I genuinely accept some of your comments however your hyperbole regarding No-Holds-Barred = Playing by the rules dissolves much of its credibility.

Can I comfortably infer that due to your statement that:

“If you deny someone a take back you are not helping them, you are helping you.” you claim that by allowing take-backs you are helping your opponent?

I respectfully disagree and would simply state my opinion that by allowing take-backs stunts the players ability to learn to become better at a game.

Surely if a player keeps winning due to take-backs they learn nothing and never actually get better? why would they if their current play style wins them games? Your inference that there won’t be constant take-backs is flawed in that if continually allowed take-backs with no undue effect (across many games, not necessarily all in 1 game), there is no reason to change the way they play the game.

Now you may feel this next statement is hypocritical but that is your prerogative:

I love the fact that this game has not delved to the depths of rules-lawyery-cheezyness, it may be starting to creep in at the corners but that’s only natural when a significant number of people play. I play genuinely, friendly and fairly, I am always courteous and am usually willing to let contentious arc checks go to my opponent. I also enjoy competition and feel that rules shouldn’t be abuse for personal gain, and that’s my point, being too relaxed in terms of enforcing the rules is just as bad as people who are rules lawyers to the point of breaking them.

Either way if both players optimise their play this will never be an issue, and you can never optimise your play if you never learn from your mistakes.

Mace,

I agree with you that excess take backs are not good, I articulated that such an extreme occurs almost exclusively when teaching a new player, or when the opponent is abusing good will. However I strongly dispute your claim that you are helping anyone but yourself with hard play. Your person refusing to learn scenario is almost disingenuously nonsensical. People have all the necessary motivation in their own desire to get better. They don't need to face consequences of an error to recognize it and avoid it going forward.

Back to the analogy, did you have to burn your hand on an electrical outlet or fire to learn no touch? How often do you correct behavior through nothing but dialog? How often do you make an embarrassing mistake and vow not to do it again, even if you don't suffer additional consequence? You don't need to answer, just reflect a bit.

Stellar,

I think we can agree to disagree as to the method in which people learn from mistakes, indeed I believe both passive (being told no but allowing it but no undue effect, thus being informed of the issue) or active (being told, not being allowed to do it, and having consequences) have their place.

I just believe that in a tournament sense the Passive learning method is too disadvantageous for yourself, in casual games it fine I understand (and please excuse my hyperbole but I couldn’t think of lesser mode) but martyring yourself at a tournament is not enjoyable.

I firmly believe that the TO at the beginning of any event should clearly explain the expectation of play and not have people feel bad for either asking or allowing take-backs.