I would also take into account the length of the tournament. We all forget things after a couple of games, let alone a dozen or so...

If one player remembers their actions and abilities, and the other forgets. Should the player that forgets be rewarded with a take back?

Being strict doesn't mean being a Jerk.

I think these things are made doubly hard by the fact that X-Wing really has a great community of people who don't want to have the tournament scene start devolving into uber-competitive harsh alpha-gamer type of play. So there is a built in social pressure to keep it friendly, for right or for wrong.

I don't disagree with you. Being strict does not mean being a jerk. But perhaps being strict in such a high profile game fosters the development of a play environment many don't want to be in?

I love the Fly Casual motto, but how do we as a community find a good balance here.

I think we are making too big a deal of the Advanced Cloaking incident this weekend. These guys both played a ton of X-wing over the course of the weekend. The final round started well after 11, if I remember correctly. Rick is obviously an excellent player who handles Whisper very well; he knows how Advanced Cloaking works, and this was an uncharacteristic lapse.

Edit: Eagle1361 'd me.

If I remember, I usually go so far as to remind someone to do the things that they have forgotten. I had a tournament yesterday and someone Target Locked Dark Curse - I said "You MIGHT NOT want to do that, since it's Dark Curse...... I mean if you REALLY WANT to you can, but I wouldn't feel right about it if I didn't remind you of who exactly that is". They opted to TL someone else.

The same goes with things like Swarm Tactics. If they forget I'll say "Ok it's the start of combat, would you like to declare anything?"

Additional: If I were the Imp I wouldn't have accepted the re-cloak... I've often made mistakes and I own them.

I would also take into account the length of the tournament. We all forget things after a couple of games, let alone a dozen or so...

If one player remembers their actions and abilities, and the other forgets. Should the player that forgets be rewarded with a take back?

Being strict doesn't mean being a Jerk.

I think these things are made doubly hard by the fact that X-Wing really has a great community of people who don't want to have the tournament scene start devolving into uber-competitive harsh alpha-gamer type of play. So there is a built in social pressure to keep it friendly, for right or for wrong.

I don't disagree with you. Being strict does not mean being a jerk. But perhaps being strict in such a high profile game fosters the development of a play environment many don't want to be in?

I love the Fly Casual motto, but how do we as a community find a good balance here.

I love the Fly Casual motto, but how do we as a community find a good balance here.

I think leaving it up to your opponent to offer a take-back instead of asking for one is a good start.

If you make a mistake just say, "Argh! I forgot to X!"

Then your opponent could either ignore it, or could make the offer to let you fix it. It gives the other person the opportunity to give the other player an advantage if they want to, without turning it into an awkward situation.

Being strict does not mean being a jerk. But perhaps being strict in such a high profile game fosters the development of a play environment many don't want to be in?

This is actually a really good point.

I suppose one could look at the situation as top notch players setting a fine example of good sportsmanship at the highest level.

I am very curious to see if this matter comes up in Team Covenant's video interview with the champ.

Here is a good way to deal with it, if you forget to put a token down and its the same turn, i.e. the interaction of Advanced Cloaking Device, then if you remember prior to it mattering, for instance you opponent rolling attack dice, then there should be no problem adding the token. It has not had an effect on the game yet.

If however, you forgot to cloak, and its the next turn, and we are onto manoeuvre assignment, this is a different deal, as your opponent might have set dials to capitalize on your omission. I would not allow take backs at this point.

This is called sportsmanship. Its like in football, if a player falls down faking an injury, the opposing team will usually kick the ball over the touch line, causing a stoppage. When the team with the "injured" player gets the ball, they usually kick it to the opposing side as a thank you for causing the stoppage. However this doesn't happen on an attack, when it will change the game.

It's a funny one and I'll reserve judgement until I see the video. Depends how the conversation went, if it was -

Phantom "oh bugger I forgot to cloak"

Opponent "just do it now mate"

Phantom "cheers man!"

This would be fine as far as I'm concerned. If it was -

Opponent "I'm gonna shoot the phantom"

Phantom "oh crap I forgot to cloak, do you mind if I do the cloak action now?"

This would be unfair to ask instead of waiting for the offer because he's now put the opponent in a difficult position, on camera no less as well.

I think we are making too big a deal of the Advanced Cloaking incident this weekend. These guys both played a ton of X-wing over the course of the weekend. The final round started well after 11, if I remember correctly. Rick is obviously an excellent player who handles Whisper very well; he knows how Advanced Cloaking works, and this was an uncharacteristic lapse.

Edit: Eagle1361 'd me.

Rick is a great player, and wouldn't have made it that far if he wasn't. I think this discussion is larger then this one game. I think it has to do more with how to handle these situations at Premire Tournaments. It's about setting the expectations of play. If "take backs" are allowed what does that mean. Do you get more 1 take back? At what point do you have to pay for your mistake? It's not simple. Also the culture of our commuinty is all about Fly Casual. Fly Casual is great but how do you keep the spirit of that while still keeping things Competitive?

A fine example of good sportsmanship would had been the other playing making the offering, and the phantom player to accept it was his mistake, and not recloaking imho.

Good sportsmanship goes both ways. By the way, i find this very minor, because i am not the player who faced him. I wouldn't had offered the re-do at the finals in the first place, so if he did, he didn't really mind, so it is perfectly fine and the discussion shouldn't really be about the incident, but your thoughts on the general subject imho.

After someone moves their ship, and if I see them reaching for their next model to move or telling me to move mine, I'll always ask what action that previous ship of theirs is taking. A polite nod to remind them to do *something* with it rather than just sit there, target like.

I have a house rule for forgotten actions called auto focus. essentially if you forget an action and you go on to the next move before realizing you can take a focus but no other action. I make this clear before the game begins. When it comes to scenarios like forgetting to re cloak or taking a target lock with FCS, well myself and the level of people I generally play will just accept it as a bum move. If I did happen to play someone immature enough to press the issue I would simply use a D6 to decide.

A fine example of good sportsmanship would had been the other playing making the offering, and the phantom player to accept it was his mistake, and not recloaking imho.

Good sportsmanship goes both ways. By the way, i find this very minor, because i am not the player who faced him. I wouldn't had offered the re-do at the finals in the first place, so if he did, he didn't really mind, so it is perfectly fine and the discussion shouldn't really be about the incident, but your thoughts on the general subject imho.

Definitely it's more about the larger issue but who would want to be the plauer who on camera and infront of the community didn't fly casual?

I personally don't think anyone could of accused him of not flying casual for not offering a redo in that situation.

It's a funny one and I'll reserve judgement until I see the video. Depends how the conversation went, if it was -

Phantom "oh bugger I forgot to cloak"

Opponent "just do it now mate"

Phantom "cheers man!"

This would be fine as far as I'm concerned. If it was -

Opponent "I'm gonna shoot the phantom"

Phantom "oh crap I forgot to cloak, do you mind if I do the cloak action now?"

This would be unfair to ask instead of waiting for the offer because he's now put the opponent in a difficult position, on camera no less as well.

My thoughts exactly.

Did any of you see the game? I'd be very curious to know about the interaction that took place...

I play a lot of magic, and I think that Xwing could have a similar judge type of arrangement to clear up things like mistakes--don't really leave it up to the players, just have them call over a judge, have both players explain what they think happened, and have the judge make the call.

I don't like being asked to allow mistakes to get covered, especially when they determine the outcome of important turns, it is part of playing well to do things correctly.

There are a lot of aspects of this game related to rules enforcement that feel a little gray to me--I really don't like the idea of checking someones damage deck, even if its friendly, it feels aggressive and I shy away from doing it.

Here's my thing...

All else being equal, both players have had the same opportunity for things like food, sleep, a shower ect...

Then at that point, both people are in fact playing at their best. This idea that we have to let someone fix a mistake otherwise we haven't beat them at their best is IMO untrue. If someone makes a mistake, that doesn't mean they're not playing at their best, because everyone makes mistakes. It's just that sometimes the mistake costs more then other times.

If however you point out someone's mistake, or allow them to take it back, you're no longer playing them at their best, you're playing them at a level that's actually beyond their best, because they needed help, which gives them an advantage.

Definitely it's more about the larger issue but who would want to be the plauer who on camera and infront of the community didn't fly casual?

I personally don't think anyone could of accused him of not flying casual for not offering a redo in that situation.

I was there talking to his brother about it he said that he had to because everyone would have thought he was ****. Granted that is his brothers opinion but I think that thinking which isn't wrong is very prevalent in the community.

I play a lot of magic, and I think that Xwing could have a similar judge type of arrangement to clear up things like mistakes--don't really leave it up to the players, just have them call over a judge, have both players explain what they think happened, and have the judge make the call.

I don't like being asked to allow mistakes to get covered, especially when they determine the outcome of important turns, it is part of playing well to do things correctly.

There are a lot of aspects of this game related to rules enforcement that feel a little gray to me--I really don't like the idea of checking someones damage deck, even if its friendly, it feels aggressive and I shy away from doing it.

This didn't need a judge at all.

It is always decided by the oppossing player

Missed Opportunities

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and

use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during

the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the

consent of his opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not

intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed

opportunity.

Can someone point us to the video so we can watch it? I can't seem to find it when I do a search.

Regardless of how it unfolded, I agree it is a lose-lose in many ways. I really hope the winner didn't ask if he could recloak at that point and that it was a voluntary nice gesture on the part of the other player (that makes it better, but still not ideal).

At worlds there were dozens of people watching live in-person, and more live online (or not live later on). That creates a lot of pressure that should not be taken advantage of by a player who made a mistake.

I'm on board with "playing opponents at their level best". If an opponent forgot to recloak or action and then immediately remembers, and he hasn't gained any advantage due to a later activation, etc, then I'm okay with them fixing that problem.

Example: this weekend I played against a Double Falcon list in a local tournament. I was flying Whisper, Howl, and 3 Academies. Turn 2 he forgot to set his Chewie dial and it was still upside down near his ship. Due to his specific deployment, that meant the accidental one forward took him halfway off the board edge. It was obvious that he wanted to do a 1 bank, so I let him change it what he would have done and we continued the game. (I ended up winning anyway). Sure it's a tournament, but how can I feel good about winning if I didn't even outfly my opponent?

If both players forgot about a ship's action and the game has progressed to where additional information is revealed, then it is much harder to go back and perform the action "you would have done" an activation ago. Holding your tongue about passive abilities such as a Sensor Jammer or Rebel Captive as they happen feels like taking the competitive environment too seriously.

I can understand someone forgetting that an opponent's ship has sensor jammer upgrade. But should you knowingly refrain from downgrading one of your hits when the ability is free and works on every shot? The card says "may" but I would feel like I am getting away with something when your opponent forgets his jammer.

My general rule in tournaments.

Tell him peter

Generally speaking in a competitive environment I am not one to allow a mistake to be corrected. Mistake are part of the game and so is dealing with them. I expect that if I were to make a mistake that I would have to pay for it.

That being said, if the guy across the table from me is new, clearly has no clue how to fly, has hit three rocks by turn two, doesn't know what the dice do, my be 9 years old, then ok. I am not a monster and will help the guy out.

I have a house rule for forgotten actions called auto focus. essentially if you forget an action and you go on to the next move before realizing you can take a focus but no other action. I make this clear before the game begins. When it comes to scenarios like forgetting to re cloak or taking a target lock with FCS, well myself and the level of people I generally play will just accept it as a bum move. If I did happen to play someone immature enough to press the issue I would simply use a D6 to decide.

Everyone in our local group always plays with the auto focus too, just in case we both miss it.