What is everyone's take on letting opponents fix their mistakes at tournaments? Not talking about casual settings because I assume we are all way more lenient. Where is your line in the sand where you finally make them pay for there mistakes?

Also what is everyone's opinion on the gencon finals where the imperial player forgot to re cloak whisper and didn't realize until after the rebel player declared his target and then let him re cloak? What would you have done in that situation?

For me I know how easy it can be to forget actions especially if I'm running kyle and have to pass a focus at the start of the combat phase and have forgotten to do so until after the opponent declared his attack. At tournaments I do not assume that anyone will let me go ahead and do it but I did do it once and the opponent graciously let me pass the focus to a ship. If I forget again I chalk it up to missed opportunity on my part and take the consequences. Because of that I will usually give them 1 free pass unless it's flying off the mat.

As far as the finals go, I wouldn't have let him re cloak and would have blasted the phantom and here is why. At the final game it is supposed to be the 2 best players of the tournament and at that level mistakes truly matter. If someone did the wrong maneuver and put themselves at range 1 of your heaviest hitter and then said oh wait that was a mistake can I go back you would never let them place a different maneuver. I know dark templar is a truly great pilot and player and very well deserving of making it that far, he brought an absolutely brutal list and flew it exceptionally well. All that said I don't think he would have won the game had he faced the consequences for the mistake.

As far as mistakes go I'm going to stop asking my opponent to let me fix them, he deserves to make me pay for my mistakes. At the very least it makes me a better player overall. Against my opponents I will probably be the nice guy and give them 1 freebie if it's before the cut. After the cut to 32 or 64 then I think we need to be accountable for what we do and don't do. At gencon I made it into saturday and luckily didn't forget any actions or anything but I wouldn't have asked because it's further into the tournament.

So what are your thoughts on all of this? Please know that I'm not trying be that hyper competitive guy who is a ****** bag to everyone but I think there is definitely a line somewhere you can make the guy pay. Please keep the discussion civil

I would let them take it back. I would rather beat someone at their best in that kind of scenario.

I think it would depend on who I'm playing against.

If it's the store champ I'd be a lot less forgiving then someone who walked in after buying the core set last night.

Generally speaking, I'd likely go with a 3 strikes rule. I'll let you fix something 2 or 3 times, but after that if you keep making dumb mistakes, then you deserve what you get.

In the case of the final, no I don't think anyone should get a second chance, not at that level. Especially considering how huge the difference can be when you're talking about a cloaked phantom.

I would rather beat someone at their best in that kind of scenario.

That's just it, you're not beating them at their best... You're beating them at their best plus your help.

There are definitely limits. Say I shoot at your TIE fighter you forgot to have take an action that has 2 hull left, and get three hits, then 'you' roll (eye eye blank). At this point I can't really let you say "oh, I forgot to but was totally going to focus"; maybe you would have taken an evade action if you'd remembered, in which case you'd still be dead with that roll. There's too much wiggle room in a case like that where something is optional to really let that sort of thing slide.

That said, like you mentioned I might be willing to let 1 slide before not giving more warnings, and I personally tend to try to remind my opponents to take their actions if they try to continue past maneuvers, but it's entirely up to you depending on the situation.

In a Tournament like GenCon, if I forget something, then I leave it. I wouldn't have accepted the the recloak. If I forget a focus or an ability, then that's my problem.

Also what is everyone's opinion on the gencon finals where the imperial player forgot to re cloak whisper and didn't realize until after the rebel player declared his target and then let him re cloak? What would you have done in that situation?

I would not have allowed the re-cloak... At that point it was far too late.

Missed Opportunities

Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and

use card effects when indicated. If a player forgets to use an effect during

the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the

consent of his opponent. Players are expected to act with respect and not

intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed

opportunity.

Keep it in the perspective of tournaments like nationals. Also Mirrimon if they made a less than optimal maneuver would you tell them then let them change it?

I dunno. I tend to be nice to my opponents and let them do what is missed if we catch it soon enough after it happens. If I ever mess up, I don't ever ask, though sometimes I'll just say something like "Crap, forgot to take an action I guess." If my opponent wants, he can let me, but I'm not forcing him to be "mean" by telling me I can't. He can just not respond. A fine line I guess. Then again, I don't really care about winning, so I tend to take more disadvantages out of the way I handle things than I do advantages.

As for the Nationals final game, it is a hard one. If he doesn't let him recloak, maybe he wins. But he would then have to always hear about how he won because his opponent forgot to recloak instead of because of something he did. Or he could do what he did and have to hear the argument on how he should not have done it. Either way, it is kind of a lose-lose (for both players really).

I too would have allowed the re-cloak. None of us are perfect. I'd rather lose with my honour intact, than win with an asterisk beside the final score (even if that asterisk is only in my mind).

It speaks great volumes to both players how they handled the scenario as it unfolded.

This is a Premier event, so everyone knows that this is a high level of competition. At this level I wouldn't let players take back their mistakes, nor would I want them to give me that easy out. Remembering your skills and actions is an important trait for a great player.

I dunno. I tend to be nice to my opponents and let them do what is missed if we catch it soon enough after it happens. If I ever mess up, I don't ever ask, I'll just say something like "Crap, forgot to take an action I guess." If my opponent wants, he can let me, but I'm not forcing him to be "mean" by telling me I can't. He can just not respond. A fine line I guess.

As for the Nationals final game, it is a hard one. If he doesn't let him recloak, maybe he wins. But he would then have to always hear about how he won because his opponent forgot to recloak instead of because of something he did. Or he could do what he did and have to hear the argument on how he should not have done it. Either way, it is kind of a lose-lose (for both players really).

"Hey dude you forgot your actions."
"Oh yeah. Thanks."
"Just don't forget to tell me if I forget mine."

Being strict doesn't mean being a Jerk.

I too would have allowed the re-cloak. None of us are perfect. I'd rather lose with my honour intact, than win with an asterisk beside the final score (even if that asterisk is only in my mind).

It speaks great volumes to both players how they handled the scenario as it unfolded.

This is a fascinating discussion.

I don't think it's cool to ask an opponent for a "do-over" - especially in a super high-visibility game like the final table of the Nationals. When you ask your opponent to let you fix a mistake in front of a video camera (and potentially thousand of viewers) of course they won't want to seem like a jerk by not letting you go back. If you make a mistake you should live with it - not put your opponent on the spot by asking them for a favor.

I haven't seen the video, and I don't know Dark Templar, but I think this incident puts a little bit of a taint on the Finals game, IMO. It's also true, however, that no one broke any rules and his opponent agreed to the do-over. So fair's fair, I guess.

I forgot to cloak in a local tournament, but I didn't ask to take it back. My Phantom got fried, but luckily I was still able to pull out a win.

I'd rather lose with my honour intact, than win with an asterisk beside the final score (even if that asterisk is only in my mind).

I can't see how there is any loss of honor in capitalizing on a mistake by someone else. Often that's the only reason why someone does win, because they made fewer mistakes.

Also by the same line of thinking the guy who won, did so only because the other guy let him re-cloak. If it were me I wouldn't accepted the offer, because it does IMO taint the win.

Being strict doesn't mean being a Jerk.

Great point! I think we are always so worried about making sure we are flying casual (which we should fly casual) that we think if we do anything to our advantage or their disadvantage we are being selfish.

I would also take into account the length of the tournament. We all forget things after a couple of games, let alone a dozen or so...

I typically fly casual: if you miss an opportunity, particularly if it's the first time you've done so, I'll let it slide and/or let you do something about it, even a little late. At the top level of competition it's different, of course, but I still err on the side of being generous about it.

(I do tend to be a little more by-the-book on things that are actual rules errors, though, as well as the consequences of your affirmative decisions. At last year's GenCon, my first-round opponent used a barrel roll with Turr during the activation phase to position himself face-to-face with my Firespray at Range 1. In the combat round, he attacked with Turr and then wanted to barrel roll again out of arc; after calling a TO over to confirm the rule, he wanted to back the game up and take a different action. I think that's beyond the scope of "fly casual"--you have to know the rules.)

At the top table at the top level of competition... I don't know. I agree with GiraffeandZebra's point that it's a lose-lose--once the mistake has been made, it's not a question of whether someone is going to be picking up an advantage, but who gets the extra nudge.

Being strict doesn't mean being a Jerk.

I think these things are made doubly hard by the fact that X-Wing really has a great community of people who don't want to have the tournament scene start devolving into uber-competitive harsh alpha-gamer type of play. So there is a built in social pressure to keep it friendly, for right or for wrong.

I don't disagree with you. Being strict does not mean being a jerk. But perhaps being strict in such a high profile game fosters the development of a play environment many don't want to be in?

95% of the time I'm cool with forgotten actions and always give the questionable "is that in range" situations to the opponents favor. I've never actually ran into the issue of changing manuevers or anything..

the other 5% is when some is obviously not being a good sport. then I'm all about the soup nazi: "No soup for you!"

I think we are making too big a deal of the Advanced Cloaking incident this weekend. These guys both played a ton of X-wing over the course of the weekend. The final round started well after 11, if I remember correctly. Rick is obviously an excellent player who handles Whisper very well; he knows how Advanced Cloaking works, and this was an uncharacteristic lapse.

Edit: Eagle1361 'd me.

I would let them take it back. I would rather beat someone at their best in that kind of scenario.

I don't mind giving my opponent the benefit of the doubt on casual, practice games.

But definitly i wouldn't be beating them at their best, when they are making the mistake in the first place. I would be handicapping myself.

Rick is obviously an excellent player who handles Whisper very well; he knows how Advanced Cloaking works, and this was an uncharacteristic lapse.

But you could also argue that this makes the mistake that much more egregious... Forgetting something as basic as cloaking a phantom is a pretty big mistake.