Josep,

As far as Move being "broken" in terms of what can be affected, the largest determining factor is what the GM makes available for the Force user to affect. If there's no Silhouette 4 objects within range to throw, then the PC's not going to be able to use all those Strength Upgrades, are they? As the GM, you're the one in charge of setting up the scene, so if you don't want the PC to be flinging around corvettes and capital ships like they were toys, then simply don't include objects of that size in the encounter design. So if you as the GM are constantly putting such large objects around for the PC to make use of, then that's on you, not the design team.

Also, FFG has routinely demonstrated that they are not limiting themselves to "canon," and there are plenty of instances in the EU/Legends of objects far bigger than Silhouette 4 being affected by the Force, and not just in the Force Unleashed games. Whether you like those instances or not, they exist, and are something that needs to be accounted for.

Plus, with the FaD Beta Updates, any and all Upgrades can be activated multiple times by default, with Move's Strength Upgrade being specifically changed to say "can be activated multiple times." So even removing one of the Strength Upgrades doesn't "fix" your particular problem, it merely delays it until the PC can pick up Force Rating 2 or better and thus have a chance of triggering that Strength Upgrade multiple times.

Plus, with the FaD Beta Updates, any and all Upgrades can be activated multiple times by default, with Move's Strength Upgrade being specifically changed to say "can be activated multiple times." So even removing one of the Strength Upgrades doesn't "fix" your particular problem, it merely delays it until the PC can pick up Force Rating 2 or better and thus have a chance of triggering that Strength Upgrade multiple times.

I’m okay with making it more expensive to activate the strength upgrades, and thus effectively requiring a higher Force Rating to move larger objects. Considering what we have seen in Canon, that suits me just fine.

And I’m the player, not the GM, so you’d think that I would want all the possible advantages I could, but in this case it’s more a matter of helping to avoid the total loss of immersion and believability.

So if you as the GM are constantly putting such large objects around for the PC to make use of, then that's on you, not the design team.

That makes no sense at all. If I want AT-ATs in the scene, but in my game I don't want to allow a non-canon MegaYoda, then it's much simpler to just house rule a more difficult limit. Why should I have to limit what I present to conform to someone else's design decision?

So if you as the GM are constantly putting such large objects around for the PC to make use of, then that's on you, not the design team.

That makes no sense at all. If I want AT-ATs in the scene, but in my game I don't want to allow a non-canon MegaYoda, then it's much simpler to just house rule a more difficult limit. Why should I have to limit what I present to conform to someone else's design decision?

So include AT-AT. No one says you have to have them in range of the PCs using move power. There were 2 parts to Donovan's statement. Of the size and in range.

So include AT-AT. No one says you have to have them in range of the PCs using move power. There were 2 parts to Donovan's statement. Of the size and in range.

It's still arbitrary. I have no idea why one would have to modify the story just to accommodate the rules, which is pretty much the opposite of the spirit of this game in the first place.

Edit: honestly I'm surprised you guys are advocating this. It's contrary to everything else I've see posted.

So if you as the GM are constantly putting such large objects around for the PC to make use of, then that's on you, not the design team.

That makes no sense at all. If I want AT-ATs in the scene, but in my game I don't want to allow a non-canon MegaYoda, then it's much simpler to just house rule a more difficult limit. Why should I have to limit what I present to conform to someone else's design decision?

So include AT-AT. No one says you have to have them in range of the PCs using move power. There were 2 parts to Donovan's statement. Of the size and in range.

Daeglan's got it right.

An AT-AT can blast away from what is tantamount to beyond Extreme Range due to how vehicle-scale range bands operate. Which means that if this hypothetical Force user wants to hurl an AT-AT around, they're going to have to spend a few turns getting close to it, or they'll have had to spend even more XP to get the necessary Range Upgrades, and thus will need to have Force Rating 2 or better just so that they can activate the base power both the Range and Strength Upgrades.

Of course, if the GM is throwing the PCs up against AT-ATs and the PCs aren't in vehicles of their own, then there's a much bigger problem. One hit from either of the walker's weapons is going to KO a PC in one hit; the AT-AT may be rolling against a Daunting difficulty, but all it needs is that one uncancelled success to inflict a whole lot of hurt.

Wait, we can use multiple Move upgrades now? I've always played it as Sil 4 being max. That's already awesome enough without hurling around Star Destroyers

My players will love it, but I'm sceptical. I kinda liked it having limits.

Of course, if the GM is throwing the PCs up against AT-ATs ...

Your argument is based on a host of faulty assumptions about GM intent, one of which is this. The AT-AT doesn't have to be an adversary, it could be in "dry-dock", essentially a loose object for Force users to throw around. The reference to AT-AT (as far as I understood it) was just an example of any object that size. My impression from the canon media is that only a Yoda or Palpatine could even think about doing that. Even the battle in the Senate had them only throwing Sil2 objects at each other. Really, we don't see in canon media any of the Force users moving things bigger than Sil3 (or maybe...maybe...the small side of Sil4), and certainly not multiples of the same, which is what Magnitude would give you.

It's tempting to cap Magnitude at Sil1, to only allow two Strength upgrades (replaced with Control options), and only allow Strength to be applied twice: first application costs 1 pip, second costs 2 more. So you could get to Sil4, but you'd have to wait a long time.

Doesn't Anikin lift one of the large underwater buildings during the battle on Mon Cal in TCW? It's one of the few points in the whole TV show series that gives me the "what the?!" feeling.

The topic is pretty much why I am sticking with EoE flavored characters. The tweaking necessary to make the Force work and rein it in got to the point of not interesting for me anymore. EoE characters keep it Star Wars, too much Force for other than background flavor and setting and the game becomes a superhero RPG. Nothing wrong with that for those that enjoy it but not what I am looking for personally in a Star Wars RPG.

You do realize it takes a lot of XP to get to that point.

And auto fire is far far more damaging as are vehicle weapons. Be more creative as a gm

Extreem range, Move powers range limit, is roughly 1-2km, slightly less than Close range for a vehicle. Short range for Vehicles is anything up to a couple of dozen km. Most vehicles with sil 4 or more are armed with vehicle scale weapons that can mince your PC before he gets close enough to activate his move power.

In short, start long if your worried, and pound the PC vehicle to make getting close hard. Have distractions near the big things, lots of Minions work well,

The tweaking necessary to make the Force work and rein it in got to the point of not interesting for me anymore.

Honestly, Move is the only one I have an issue with. I think they pretty much nailed the rest.

I don't see any issue with move. I see far more damage output from non force users. By the time a force user might be able to toss around large objects careers like heavies can be mowing down people with a repeating blaster. Move is not exactly that scary when compared to things like starship weaponry and what others can do with a ranged weapon.

so far the system is well balanced imho. we have a lot of career supplements to go but the threats are easy to make and modify for any encounter (Most i don't bother coming up with a talent list for, I'm good at eyeballing what dice they should be rolling when i have an idea of the NPC!) My preference is coming up with interesting scenarios for the party to play through, not an empty box with some meat with blasters dumped in for target practice.

have the scenarios change mid encounter, surprise the party, send literally hordes of minions at them if they try to turn everything into a DnD fight, for every one they kill at short range another 2 appear at medium or long... this is supposed to be cinematic and epic, make it that, big things get in the way, but thinking will get them around it.

Move is not exactly that scary when compared to things like starship weaponry and what others can do with a ranged weapon.

You may not have noticed then: the argument isn't about damage output, it's about what the limits are on affecting the surrounding environment and how that shapes the flavour of the game. I'm not sure about the stats for the walker that Mace pushes off the road on Ryloth in TCW, but it looks about Sil3...that's about the biggest thing that gets moved around in all the canon media. In the half-animated season 7 episodes, Obiwan and Anakin struggle *together* to handle a crystal that is small next to an AT-AT.

My aim for my games is to remain within those boundaries, and Move-As-Written doesn't do that.

Move is not exactly that scary when compared to things like starship weaponry and what others can do with a ranged weapon.

You may not have noticed then: the argument isn't about damage output, it's about what the limits are on affecting the surrounding environment and how that shapes the flavour of the game. I'm not sure about the stats for the walker that Mace pushes off the road on Ryloth in TCW, but it looks about Sil3...that's about the biggest thing that gets moved around in all the canon media. In the half-animated season 7 episodes, Obiwan and Anakin struggle *together* to handle a crystal that is small next to an AT-AT.

My aim for my games is to remain within those boundaries, and Move-As-Written doesn't do that.

Which to me says that is not where Mace focused. Same for Obi-wan and Anakin. It does not to me speak to the limits of the power. But to the limits of the character.

Say...WHAT? One of my assumptions is those characters are among the Force's most capable practitioners. If they can't do it, some 300XP backwater wannabe can't either. Wow.

Well, I'm done. At this point it's clear you'll say almost anything.

Wait, we can use multiple Move upgrades now? I've always played it as Sil 4 being max. That's already awesome enough without hurling around Star Destroyers

My players will love it, but I'm sceptical. I kinda liked it having limits.

At least going by the Force and Destiny Beta Week 8 Update, which specifically changed the Strength Upgrade to include the line "can be activated multiple times" along with changing the sidebar on page 195 from "can only activate once unless otherwise noted" to "can activate multiple times unless otherwise noted."

I'm not found of the change myself, but it is out there.

Say...WHAT? One of my assumptions is those characters are among the Force's most capable practitioners. If they can't do it, some 300XP backwater wannabe can't either. Wow.

The Force is a very broad thing, and we do see Obi-Wan and Anakin as being capable in a broad number of things.

Obi-Wan for instance is quite capable with Move, Sense, and Influence at the very least, and cases could probably be made for other powers. Just because he can't fling AT-ATs around like they were toys doesn't mean that other Jedi couldn't do such a thing. He was also only in his late 30's or so for the bulk of the Clone Wars, and very much considered on the young side for being a Jedi Master.

Anakin was a prodigy to be sure, but he too was considered extremely young, and his age may have also been a factor in the Council denying him the rank of Master in RotS along with him largely being a stooge for Palpatine in their eyes. It had even been stated in RotS that Anakin had yet to reach his full potential in terms of what he can do in the Force. Plus it'd been noted that as good as he thought he was, there were plenty of older and more experienced Jedi that were better simply by virtue of being older and more experienced.

So just because you don't see Anakin or Obi-Wan hurling around starships like they were toys doesn't mean it's impossible for a PC that's focused exclusively on Move to do so, it's just that for the same amount of XP those two Jedi went for a broader approach in terms of their Force power.

And as I said earlier in the thread to Josep, there's a number of EU/Legends instances of a Force user that wasn't a named hero from the films pulling off some crazy stuff with telekinesis. You may not like those instances, which is fine (there's a fair part of the EU that I'm not the least bit sad to see be removed from the canon), but they are out there, and as FFG hasn't been shy from pulling from the EU/Legends for the EotE and AoR product lines, they've chosen not to suddenly turn stingy in that regard about Force and Destiny. Like it or hate it, The Force Unleashed was a thing, and was quite popular with how over-the-top the Force was in that game, and there are players and GMs that are going to want to be able to recreate that. There's also the 2D Clone Wars mini-series, where you've got Yoda using telekinesis to shove a group of those hovering battle tanks back into the attack carrier that carried them to Coruscant, and then follow it up by shoving said carrier back into the sky before causing it and another carrier to collide with one another. Yes, those are both in the Legends category, but they are a part of the Star Wars media, and i don't think it's entirely fair to disallow those sort of actions as a blanket ruling.

As for Daeglan's comments about how there are things more dangerous than Move in terms of damage output, a large part of that is also the reliability of the attack. Unless the PC has a Force Rating of 3 or better and has invested a large sum of XP into Move, being able to hit multiple targets with giant objects at longer distances (i.e. needing to activate the Magnitude, Strength, and Range Upgrades), being able to do that on a consistent round-to-round basis isn't feasible. In contrast, I've got a Gand Seeker/Hunter in my Force and Destiny game that with Force Rating 2, the Instinctive Shot talent, and a modified heavy blaster rifle is able to dish out incredible amounts of damage; this past session he nearly one-shotted the BBEG of the adventure with a single attack (2 hits thanks to autofire, both at 17 damage each). While he might not get that much damage each round, thanks to his talent and high skill rank in Ranged (Heavy), he can reliably dish out a lot of damage, far more than the two PCs with freaking lightsabers can do. With vehicle-mounted weapons, the medium laser cannons on a TIE fighter can take down a PC in one shot (rolling against a Hard difficulty due to size contrast), as can most of the weapons on an AT-ST (same difficulty on attack checks). With a dice pool of 1 yellow and 2 green (Agility 3, Gunnery 1), odds are good that the shooter's going to get that one uncancelled success for a hit, turning the PC into a grease stain.

And as I said earlier in the thread to Josep, there's a number of EU/Legends instances of a Force user that wasn't a named hero from the films pulling off some crazy stuff with telekinesis. You may not like those instances, which is fine (there's a fair part of the EU that I'm not the least bit sad to see be removed from the canon), but they are out there, and as FFG hasn't been shy from pulling from the EU/Legends for the EotE and AoR product lines, they've chosen not to suddenly turn stingy in that regard about Force and Destiny.

Right, I agree that's where FFG went with it, and I have no problem with it in that I understand their intent was to make a rule-set flexible enough to accommodate everyone. Except that doesn't work for my table. The phrase "You may not like those instances" is an understatement...I despise that kind of stuff in the EU, and I don't see why I should have to allow it at my table. My working assumption is the masters we see in canon media are the best there are. I have no idea why that's a problem.

So...

Yes, those are both in the Legends category, but they are a part of the Star Wars media, and i don't think it's entirely fair to disallow those sort of actions as a blanket ruling.

...not fair to who? My players? At my table? You seem to make a lot of assumptions about my game based on a minor disagreement over a single Force power. My players aren't pushover drones, they'll tell me when things aren't right.

Edit:

As for Daeglan's comments about how there are things more dangerous than Move in terms of damage output, a large part of that is also the reliability of the attack.

This could be a valid point, but I think my changes make up for it in tactical opportunities. The Silhouette multiplier is a key part of the problem, I think. It lends credence to the idea you can "throw" an AT-AT at someone and do 40+ damage. This might be fine for the EU if you want it, but for me, based on canon media, we really never see them throwing around items much bigger than Silhouette 0 for the most part, and Sil1 only on rare occasions.

So just because you don't see Anakin or Obi-Wan hurling around starships like they were toys doesn't mean it's impossible for a PC that's focused exclusively on Move to do so, it's just that for the same amount of XP those two Jedi went for a broader approach in terms of their Force power.

For the effect in question, the issue here is not that Anakin or Obi-wan weren’t specialized enough in the force to hurl starships around. The issue here is that it would only take another handful of XP to go from having just the basic Move power to having all the available Strength upgrades, and that would be enough to allow someone to hurl starships around.

If you’re FR5 or FR6, and you’ve got the spare pips to throw around to allow you to hurl starships, I don’t have a problem with that. But that would also mean that you’re stronger in the Force than Yoda, which is saying a lot.

If you’re FR5 or FR6, and you’ve got the spare pips to throw around to allow you to hurl starships, I don’t have a problem with that. But that would also mean that you’re stronger in the Force than Yoda, which is saying a lot.

Ah, but here's the other side of the coin... the movies in general take a much more conservative view on the Force, mostly as the special effects needed would be too costly, especially for the pre-CGI original films where they pretty much had to use practical effects. So having Luke hurl massive objects around during the Pit of Carkoon battle would have been far too costly for them to film.

And since Yoda really doesn't have official stats, who's to honestly say that he can't pull of those kinds of crazy stunts if he really wanted to? With Yoda, it's quite possible that while he can do those things, he never considers himself to be in a situation where he truly has to do so during the course of the prequels; after all, one of the points of those films was how the Jedi Order had succumbed to a certain degree of hubris. By the time Yoda starts to get serious about his fight with Sidious, he's pretty much lost already, and chose to flee (and take the "long view" according to Season 6 of the Clone Wars) rather than keep fighting a losing battle.

Say...WHAT? One of my assumptions is those characters are among the Force's most capable practitioners. If they can't do it, some 300XP backwater wannabe can't either. Wow.

Well, I'm done. At this point it's clear you'll say almost anything.

And they are. But they are broadly capable. Not super focused in just being able move objects. as Donovan said there is more to the force than just moving objects.

And to hurl around starships is a huge investment XP wise for something not super reliable. Far more efficient to to maybe be able to do silhouette 2 and have magnitude upgrades so you can hurl multiple adversaries. And then use the XP to do other things.

Hurling starship is a rather one trick pony sort of thing. I see Yoda as being able to hurl starships. But not really having a call for it. It is needlessly flashy. When you can just hurl multiple opponents into a wall or some such for less effort.